numisport

On 3/28/2024 at 2:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any new thoughts on CACG grading ? 

Here it is now April 27th and I have my first CACG slab. Most of my slabbed coins have CAC stickers so I thought I would pick up a nice original Trade Dollar in AU 55. Coin stands on its own merits with nice original skin and only slight circulation rub. Optical grade slab is nice looking but although roughly the same size as PCGS slabs, its really thick and wont fit in a PCGS box. 

Check out this comparison to other slabs. CACG slab is roughly same size as PCGS slab but much thicker while roughly same thickness as NGC slab but not the same size. Of course ANACS is just different.

On 2/15/2024 at 4:32 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Thank you, I didn't get too much info from it other than price guide and inaccurate census. I did just see one that was a Proof 65 CAC go for almost $2500 listed though wow.

Any of these proof Walkers with cameo contrast will bring multiples of price guide values.

On 2/15/2024 at 4:37 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Beautiful coin!!! Ouch makes mine and the one I'm looking at like spare change..

I don't know what you do for a living but you must be able to afford it or have really good connections. Congrats again on that fine specimen!! Definitely jealous 

Do you have a registry?

You can view my registry sets that include NGC images. I am a man of modest means but admit I paid premium money for nice deep mirrored spot free coins. All of my '36 to '42 proof coins have been CAC verified either by me or were already CAC when I purchased them. I understand NGC no longer recognizes them but mine are grandfathered from earlier days. I cannot give an explanation for this decision but can only surmise that it is motivated by legal challenges from outsiders.

Here is my Pf 67 piece which is how I like them. Nicer coins do exist but higher grade more expensive examples often are 3 to 4K and are often toned or hazy. This one is a deeply mirrored frosty coin but not quite cameo, and is very scarce as such.  coin 

On 2/15/2024 at 3:58 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Good ole@RWB would appreciate that. I'm sure it's a good read. I will look into it .

Do you think $385 is a good buy for this particular piece? Asking since you have obtained one yourself.

I'm assuming your fond of Walkers? I do have one 1944 MS65 maybe I should hold off and put the money towards another piece that is different to add. Unless the price is too good to pass up for this one? 

Pictures/lighting suck its much better in hand with some colorful toning just wish I didn't have those two black spots meh.

 

An NGC Pf 65 coin would be a good deal at that price. Pf 63 or 64 may still be a reasonably good buy. In a few minutes I will post mine.

On 2/10/2024 at 6:40 PM, FlyingAl said:

Fire away!

A few drafts have been in the works, but I want to be sure the final draft answers all the questions out there.

Can't wait for your finished presentation. Also would like to see in print your previous work on "36 to "42 cameo proof die pairing. My link to that no longer works. 

As you've probably already noticed ATS you can find an interesting post by Mark Feld about the origin of these so called "64 SMS coins right now.

On 2/15/2024 at 3:18 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Your image shows decent obverse detail with a reverse die that has been polished a bit more thus missing that detail and otherwise a nice coin ! You really should pick up a copy of Roger Burdette's book 1936 to 1942 U.S.Proof Coins wiich explains the known die pairs in detail.

On 10/1/2023 at 9:05 PM, RWB said:

Thank you. So that's really 100 points vs 70 points, omitting the +  -  *  !!!!!!!! and LQQK stuff. The definitions are all guesses, with almost no empirical content.

Holy smokes looks like well struck coins start at 64. Now were gonna have to redefine WELL struck for all the thousands of Morgan and Peace dollars already graded in the past 35 years.......

Oh wait they wont cross ? Boy gemmy Buffalos are gonna look funny in 62 holders ! Sorry 9.2 holders ?

On 2/2/2024 at 5:42 PM, Sandon said:

  Here is your "credible explanation":

  See What is an Adjectival Grade? | NGC (ngccoin.com), where NGC explains, "For some bulk submissions, NGC will allow the submitter to request that only the adjectival grade be printed on the NGC certification label. This is generally done only for large submissions of relatively common coins. The coins must still meet NGC’s requirements for the numeric grade range for that adjectival grade. . ..  UNCIRCULATED is often paired with the additional qualifiers of BRILLIANT, CHOICE, or GEM. NGC considers BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED to be any coins that would grade from 60-70 on the Sheldon Grading Scale. CHOICE UNCIRCULATED is considered to be any coins that would grade from 63 to 70. GEM UNCIRCULATED (sometimes indicated as GEM UNC or GEM BU) is used for coins that would grade from 65 to 70."

   Presumably, a bulk submission coin graded "UNCIRCULATED" would be a lower end mint state coin that would have been graded no higher than MS 62 if submitted for numerical grading. I understand that it would be scored as a "MS 60" in the NGC Registry.

   NGC has been offering this service for bulk submitters for some time. It is not uncommon to see Morgan and Peace dollars and modern issues in NGC holders with these adjectival grades.

What if it was actually Uncirculated details ?

On 1/21/2024 at 8:47 PM, VKurtB said:

I don’t think our federal trial judiciary has any shame left at all at this point. None that I can discern, anyway. The federal trial judiciary is so chock full of political hacks that it has lost just about ALL credibility. You pretty much have to get to the Supreme Court of the United States level before you get to see anyone worthy of respect in this country’s judiciary. Even the Courts of Appeals are frequently cruel jokes these days. 

Just completed my questionnaire for a Federal jury trial summons. I don't know how I could possibly keep a straight face during a federal trial knowing how deep the swamp really is ! What a joke. 

I've been called several times and have sat one local trial for State crimes but that is different I feel. I just don't think I could sit in front of a group of fruadsters at my expence just to render an opinion that is meaninless.

On 1/10/2024 at 10:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I agree....but it now appears (I could be wrong here but don't think I am) that the CAC sticker on PCGS and NGC coins means that the coin was appropriate for the grade (A or B coin stickered) but is NOT guaranteed to cross at the same grade into CACG.

Huge debate over ATS and somewhat at CAC Forums about coins going from MS to AU with the whole "rub" and "wear" debates.  You have 1 of the 3 big TPGs doing a 180 from market to techincal grading and it's causing some angst. 

Yes I read that without comment. Cabinet rub has been a problem with me since the early days of grading Bust coinage. Too many coin doctors still out there and I feel they are being identified a little at a time. Problem is that nobody seems to notice. 

On 1/16/2024 at 12:28 PM, RWB said:

The usable life of silica gel (aka, silica xerogel) depends on the humidity and air circulation. The best commercial products have an indicator added so the material turns blue when it's saturated. You'll have to test for longevity. In a humid place, such as the Gulf Coast, you might have to replace every month. I am not familiar with any specific brand -- you'll have to read the labels. Hardware stores and some coin shops carry silica gel.

You can regenerate it by gently heating to about 120F for a couple of hours.

Agree but regeneration of my boxed silica seems to work well in the oven. Problem is most ovens (even with newer solid state controls) have minimum heat of 170. Like you stated the object is to slowely bring the temp up given enough time to thoroughly dry out the silica media. Cardboard cartons that store the silica seem to take that 170 fegrees just fine.

Should have a Cameo designation (or DCam)

On 12/28/2023 at 1:29 PM, Coinbuf said:

A bit late to my replies on this thread and to return to the original thrust of the thread I believe your statement is only partially correct.   When JA first started CAC his goal was to find really nice, original, unmolested (or as close as can be) or "rare" coins that he would like to buy then resell to other dealers.   The bean was a way for him to identify those coins as they would come to the market via auctions or be offered directly to him.   Very quickly as more and more dealers and collectors started to submit to CAC the market adopted the A, B, C concept which was an easy concept for people to understand and accept.   A coins being the cream of the crop and those he felt were undergraded are a mix of gold and green beans.   The B coins are (in theory all green beaned) considered by JA as solid for the grade.   The C coins being a mixture of coins that are correctly graded but more lower end of the grade, overgraded (in his opinion), and those straight graded coins with surface issues or that have been doctored.

Once those CAC approved coins began to hit the market with dealers hyping them, collectors salivating over them, and both the PCGS and NGC registries recognizing those coins as better than average the market for these coins really took off and CAC became something other than the original intention.   And while I do not know this for fact, I think it may have become difficult for JA to buy CAC beaned coins, at levels where he could then resell for a profit as the collector demand really drove up the prices.   That last part is just speculation on my part but makes sense to me.

To return to the first part of my reply, because JA was looking for coins to buy and resell, some coins that might not meet the A or B concept may have been beaned simply because he wanted to be able to identify those coins for buying not necessarily because it was a true A or B coin.   For those who don't understand the original purpose of CAC it is those coins that may not look like an A or B coin but with a bean that confuse some collectors.

This is an extension of my reply above, the answer is yes JA did indeed buy CAC coins as they came to market.   Often through auction venues, but I do know a few collectors that have sold directly to JA.   Something to keep in mind, JA has himself said that he is/was not the highest paying buyer, which makes sense as his goal was to buy then resell to dealers via the wholesale side of the business.   So as CAC matured and the prices for beaned coins began to rise I would expect that fewer and fewer sold directly as it would have be smarter to sell your CAC beaned coins through an auction venue to realize the best selling price.

As far as NGC Regiatry recognizing CAC coins, I find it is no longer the case. They've had a change of heart 'so to speak'. They now claim they have a software problem and can no longer accept CAC coins at this time. However they still recognize CAC Registry coins excepted early on. Any other response on this issue is welcome as I have no problem myself using the CAC stickered coin lookup tool.

What a great thread about color on gold ! With me it ends up moving to coppers. Sorry another thread some time.

Full detail key date looks to have been in the ground or stored in a damp moist environment.

On 10/11/2023 at 6:55 PM, Conder101 said:

In many, if not all cases, the milk spots developed or became visible after the coins were slabbed.

Do you think the NGC guarantee would apply to these white spotted coins ? Are they still Pf 70 with these spots ?

Dirty little secrets enough to write a book. Many have wondered why PCGS coins have had higher resale value and even higher Grey sheet values for similar NGC coins. The writing has been on the wall for years. 

Strange thing is that even after their board of experts had their influence there still is huge numbers of PCGS coins that sell for a discount without that CAC sticker. I'm not confused but those collectors that drank the coolaid sure must be. Of course I own PCGS graded material like most of you but only after careful consideration would I purchase PCGS coins that don't have fourth party verification. David Hall fourth party verification would be meaningless to me. Many of the Newman coins graded by NGC were crossed to PCGS a grade lower by Legend whose owner was one of their experts on the board. That's okay with me to have another opinion but do you see the conflict of interest there ? So even with another stickering service to be impressed by, the bottom line is why don't they get it right the first time especially with turnaroud times at 4 to 5 months. 

On 11/10/2023 at 2:50 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If the original wasn't in high relief, not sure the recreation should be.  JMHO.

I purchased the 2009 Ultra High Relief Saint....but it's 27 MM not 34 MM (Saint diameter), which was one of the original intended sizes when Saint-Gaudens was creating mock models.  But because this coin was 99.99% gold and not 90% gold, the total size at all diameters was SMALLER so if they made it 34 mm it would have been really thin.

I wonder if they should have done a 90/10 alloy to allow for a larger size than what was sold and to match the original dimensions matching an MCMVII UHR.

Yes they should have and then the color would look right after a few decades 

On 10/29/2023 at 7:01 PM, robec1347 said:

Very nice collection of DCarr Peace Dollar overstrikes and appears to have nearly all (if not all) die pir offered. Do you own these coins ? 

PCGS says SMS coins are Specimen strikes. I don't agree as these coins had no special handling after the strike. The nice ones actually look like proofs.