coinsandmedals

@RWBthis is an excellent idea! The librarian at my university is a fellow stats fanatic, and we know each other well from a few classes. I might send her an email to see if she can work some magic. She’s been able to find some relatively obscure material for me in the past, but it was all related to my area of study. 

A member of another forum suggested the ANA library. I may contact them first before making a request through my university. 

In doing some research, I came across the citations for two articles that I would like to read, but I have no luck locating digital copies. I did locate a printed copy of the first, but it is being sold as a set for $25, and it seems impractical to spend that much for a single article that is only eight pages long. I checked NNP for both, but the search function is next to useless, and the only two Coin and Bulletin volumes they have for 1972 are not the correct issue.

Does anyone have a copy or a source for a copy of either of these articles? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Brian Gould (1972) Noel-Alexandre Ponthon: Medallist and Minaturist (1769/70-1835) Seaby’s Coin and Medal Bulletin 1972 Seaby London pp 312-319

Brian Gould (1969) Monsieur Duret: Craftsman at Soho Numismatic Circular September 1969 Volume LXXVII Number 9 p 278.

I assume that the number is very small. Like other members have already said, most collectors seem unable or unwilling to learn how to grade, much less take the time to study the history of the items they accumulate. 

In the past, I read almost anything that came my way. This provided a decent background knowledge of a host of U.S. coins. Since starting my graduate education, I have found it more challenging to devote time to do so. That being said, I still read relevant material very often, but it is much more tailored to what I collect. New publications on my area of focus are far and few. As such, I spend a lot of time reading out of print books, contemporary ephemera (e.g., newspaper clippings, parliamentary briefs, etc.), peer-reviewed journal publications, and lately, a considerable amount of archived personal correspondence in a mix of several different languages. Although I love pretty shiny things just as much as the next guy, it is often the historical context that captures and keeps my attention. 

On 8/16/2021 at 2:25 PM, Mohawk said:

Another great article!! I love NGC's ancients articles.....they're always a great read with many pictures of some serious eye candy!! Thanks for sharing that Nichole!

Tom, is that you? It is nice to see you active here again! How have you been? How did the dissertation go? 

I am not sure that function exists for the NGC registry. I was more so trying to encourage you to post pictures on the forum for us all to enjoy.

I suppose I should have qualified my statement of “more interesting”, which I meant to refer to examples not usually encountered (i.e., most early proofs with a different obverse or reverse design than the one adopted). Your Droz patterns would be good examples of "interesting" coins for those who are not nearly as familiar with his work. It appears our interests are largely in line with one another. I enjoy the scientific, social, artistic, and economic history of the Soho Mint. The shiny pieces of metal happen to be a nice bonus!   

I greatly appreciate your kind words. I decided to forgo discussing the Sierra Leone Company coinage mostly because I did not have an example to illustrate. The breadth of the write-up was extensive enough without its inclusion. It is an interesting and important part of Soho history that I likely will include in the future.

It appears that you are collecting almost the entire gauntlet of English copper struck at the Soho Mint. As I am sure you already know, this will not be an easy goal to accomplish. I sincerely hope that you stick around this forum and share your new additions as you acquire them. For now, my collecting efforts have slowed as more important goals are on the horizon, so if provided the opportunity, I will live vicariously through your journey.

The 1799 NGC PF-68 Cameo in the August Heritage Auction is an excellent example for many reasons. Yes, they note the mislabeled denomination, but this has no bearing on the variety. In this instance, they have appropriately labeled the variety in the auction description, but I imagine this is likely because of the relatively high price this example is likely to fetch. In my experience, it is not the norm for auction houses to list the variety unless clearly stated on the label; however, they do often correct egregious errors such as a mislabeled denomination. That said, Heritage Auctions is usually one of the few that try to highlight all errors as they occur. It is also worth noting that Peck rates 1233 as scarce, but there have been well over 60 examples offered for sale since 1970. This estimate only includes the examples attributed by TPGs and numerous auction houses. It makes no effort to include those not directly attributed, so the actual number of market appearances is likely much higher. By most accounts, this variety is extremely common (albeit not in PF-68 holders). The auction description acknowledges this point and deflects the attention to the assigned grade. If I had an extra $4000-6000 to spend on a coin (without my wife possibly murdering me), it most certainly would not be on this piece for several reasons.

I would make the argument that no TPG is immune to error. I have found my fair share of errors in NGC, PCGS, ANACS, and ICG holders. That said, in my experience, one of the companies I have listed above makes far more mistakes within this niche area than the other three combined.

While I agree that the TPG census/population reports may provide some helpful information regarding rarity, I stand by my point that it is limited in utility. Yes, P-966 is also a good example, as well as almost all other renderings of DH-11, excluding 962, 963, and 968.

All of this talk about Soho pieces makes me curious about what you have added to your collection so far. Would you mind sharing some of your more interesting pieces?

Welcome to the forum! Your question hits pretty close to home as my focus is almost entirely upon the coins, tokens, and medals struck at the Soho Mint. You specifically mention Peck, so I assume you also collect by variety? With that assumption, I have a few related comments.

The census/population reports provided by the TPGs are interesting, but they have limited utility for this niche area. Here are a few reasons why:

1.       The submitter must pay a $15 attribution fee to have the appropriate variety listed on the label. It appears most submitters are either unaware of this or are unwilling to pay the fee as the bulk of graded pieces are unattributed. This results in the coins being lumped together within a single category based on finish (i.e., copper, bronzed, gilt, etc.). Note that I am primarily discussing the numerous proofs, patterns, and restrikes. This is not as significant an issue for circulation strikes (excluding the 11 vs. 10 leaves variety of the 1797 Pence). If the attribution is not listed on the label is not included in the census/population report. As you can imagine, this only further complicates matters.

2.       Variety attributions are often incorrect. I have learned over the years to be far more cautious with one of the major TPGs because of this. I will not specify which, but I think the answer is apparent when looking through the coins within my set.

3.       The census/population reports only include graded coins. The bulk of the material we collect has simply not crossed paths with a TPG. This is painfully obvious to me as about 95% of what I purchase is raw. The TPG fever has not fully taken hold in Europe yet. This might change with time, and I suspect that it very well may. Still, the census/population reports only provide a very narrow and often highly inaccurate glimpse of rarity.

Using auction archives can be helpful, but they too have limitations. Most auction houses are seemingly reliant upon TPG data and are either unable or unwilling to form their own opinion about the variety of the piece they are offering. It is rare for an auction house to contradict the variety attribution listed on the TPG label. This is true even if it is a painfully obvious error (e.g., the variety listed is for a coin with an entirely different obverse design) and almost always true when the difference is subtler. Because TPGs often get the attribution incorrect, this by default means that auction houses will as well. Even if they have an in-house expert to consult, it may not be economically viable to do so, and as such, the issue is likely to remain uncorrected. Unless the auction house provides crisp detailed pictures, the process of variety attribution will be all but impossible without viewing the coin in hand. That said, this seems to be a less apparent issue as most auction houses have invested in good photography since the rapid push toward online markets over the last decade and even more so in the last year. If you attempt to do a comprehensive review of rarity by variety for the last four decades, these limitations become even more troublesome.

Although Peck did an exceptional job with the information he had at his disposal, my research and that of others suggest that his rarity rating is to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. There are numerous examples where his estimate of rarity was off base from reality. For instance, he rates P-965 as very scarce, but in reality, this coin is very common. At the time of writing this post, I have options to buy over two dozen examples of this variety, which is not unusual. Likewise, there are instances in which he underestimated the rarity of certain varieties. I suspect as you continue your research, you will discover this as well. Of course, the actions of Matthew Piers Watt Boulton and Taylor only further complicated the issue as it created more “varieties” that are often very difficult to account for.  

Like Peck, we can only base our estimates of rarity upon the data we have at hand. Luckily, we have way more information readily available to us because of the internet, which is an opportunity not afforded to Peck a half-century ago. Over the years, I have developed a working knowledge of relative rarity for many varieties, and I suspect that you will likely do the same in time.

You might also enjoy the registry set that I built detailing the history of the Soho Mint, which won the “Most Informative Custom Registry” award last year. 

So far, the advice provided is all excellent. Let me reiterate that this process will not be quick, and it might be best to set expectations very low as they can only go up from there. You seem to have the right mindset, so I hope you stick around here and learn with us!

There are several very knowledgeable world coin collectors here that are generally speaking very generous with their knowledge. If you have questions about a specific coin, it will not hurt to start a new thread here and post clear, tightly cropped, and correctly oriented pictures of the coin in question. You specifically mentioned British coins, so if you have any copper coinage dated up to 1837 and need help, please tag me in your post or send me a private message. If I do not know the answer to your question, I am sure I know someone who does.

****I originally posted this in the journal section, but I remembered that many do not visit that section of the forums. I have decided to post it here as well. I apologize for “spamming” the boards, but I figure Bill’s passing deserves a larger audience.****

I learned several weeks ago that my friend, Bill McKivor, passed away. I have missed him sorely, but I refrained from posting about it until his family released an obituary (you can find that here). Many of you who knew him have likely already heard, but I wanted to post it here for those who have not.

Bill and I did not meet until May of last year, but in the relatively short amount of time that I knew him, he quickly became one of my favorite people. Bill was an unusually kind and generous person who exemplified the type of comradery which often brings new people to this hobby. While talking with another gentleman who was well acquainted with Bill, he described Bill’s ability to carry on a conversation as legendary. This description seems more than appropriate to me. Bill and I initially emailed one another, but eventually, our messages got too long, and with the issues Bill often experienced with his outlook program, we decided to continue our conversations on the phone. We spent hours talking, and on more than one occasion, we had to end our conversation early because our phone batteries couldn’t keep up! I made a point to plug my phone up before our calls, but it never seemed to last long enough.

In line with every other aspect, Bill was exceedingly generous with the information he had. I learned so much about the Soho Mint, Matthew Boulton, antique cars, tokens, and medals in such a short time. It never ceased to amaze me how much Bill knew about seemingly obscure topics, such as the silver-lined brass shells produced at the Soho Mint. I spent months researching the topic on the internet with little luck, but within 30 minutes, Bill had provided me with enough contextual information to provide a solid foundation for a short article. I hope to resubmit that article for publication soon, which I plan to dedicate in his honor. While discussing the silver-lined brass shells, Bill shared his passion for the medals produced at the Soho Mint, and this is the slippery slope that eventually led to my wallet becoming a bit thinner. He talked about the historical context of the pieces, the vast array of the art depicted on them, and the numerous nuances of collecting them.

I eventually found myself pursuing several medals at an auction, and after winning, I quickly realized just how woefully underprepared I was for their arrival. These things were huge and of such high relief in comparison to the coinage. It did not take long for me to realize I was well out of my league insofar as storage was concerned. I called Bill for advice, and he provided some very helpful suggestions. About a week later, I received an unsolicited package from him with cloth holders to help store the larger medals that would not fit my extra-large flips. I offered to pay for them, but Bill refused. In another instance, he sent me a copy of The MCA Advisory (Vol 20, No. 3, May-June, 2017), which detailed his collection of Soho Medals to aid my research. Again, I offered to pay him for it, but he said helping was payment enough. He wanted no further conversation on the topic. That was just the type of guy he was. If he could help, he would, and he did so without an expectation of anything in return.

Beyond Bill’s willingness, if not insistence upon being helpful, he was a thoughtful and genuine person. This was abundantly clear when we talked about politics, religion, marriage, travel, or just about every other topic that one can think of. He had so many extraordinary stories to share that always seemed to highlight the importance of some life lesson. He always encouraged me to grasp opportunities when they present themselves, and in part, this is what motivated me to start collecting medals. He piqued my interest by sharing his passion for them. I could not think of a better excuse for pursuing so many incredible pieces than having the guru to discuss them with!

Had it not been for Bill sharing his passion, I would have almost certainly overlooked the medals and subsequently an essential part of Soho’s history. Any consideration of the Soho Mint is incomplete without also taking into account the role of medal engraving. As such, it seems fitting that his memory should live on in my collection as I pursue the very pieces that he once held in such high regard. I plan to build a detailed custom set, similar to my others, which highlights the rich history of the medals struck at the Soho Mint. I hope that by doing so, I may help others discover the series and perhaps extend the same generosity afforded to me by Bill. I regret to say that I only had the pleasure to purchase two items from him, both of which are pictured here. As you can see, Bill had a real eye for quality!  

Thank you for sharing! It appears similar technology was already in use at the Soho Mint by 1799. I can’t help but wonder what our coinage would have looked like had Boulton provided either coinage or machinery to the U.S. Mint from its onset.

I’d call that an MS-65. 

BUMP 

It looks like I scored 7 out of 10. I have never collected Sovereigns, but I have learned a lot by reading posts from those who do. Thank you for taking the time to create the poll. 

These were a bit more difficult, but I think I got at least 3 correct. 

I believe I got them all correct except number 4. I had to guess on that one. 

I have decided to create a thread in the marketplace to sell the remainder of the books. If interested in any of the titles listed above, please comment on that thread. Thanks! 

11 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

Very cool collection. Hopefully one of these days mine will look like that. I've been slowly reading some amazing books and old numismatic magazines and adding to it. 

Thank you, I am happy to report that many of them have found new homes! To my wife's disbelief, this list only represents a tiny portion of my numismatic references. I may do several more purges between now and when we relocate. 

I originally posted this list seeking advice about where to sell these books. Although it was never my intention to sell them from that original thread, a couple of members expressed interest, and we subsequently made a deal for several of the books. Those have been removed from the list, but there are plenty of good titles left. I will do my best to price these books fairly. More often than not, this equates to a 50-75% of current going rate (based on sold listings) for comparable books on eBay plus a reasonable amount to cover shipping. If interested in multiple books, I am willing to chip in a little to cover excess shipping charges. If you are interested in any of the titles listed, please comment below or send me a PM. I am also happy to answer any questions and provide pictures upon request. 

United States Coins

1. Numismatics of Massachusetts, Malcolm Storer, 1981, hardcover, 319 pages.
2. John Hull, The Mint and The Economics of Massachusetts Coinage, Louis Jordan, hardcover, 348 pages.
3. The Treasure Ship S.S. New York Her Story, 1837-1846, Bowers, 2008, 94 pages.

United States Tokens/Medals/Currency

1. Patriotic Civil War Tokens Revised 4th edition 1982 Update 1993 die photos, softcover, 124 pages.
2. Alaska Tokens, Ronald J. Benice, 179, hardcover, 208 pages.
3. 100 Greatest American Medals and Tokens by Jaegar and Bowers (2007), hardcover, 119 pages.
4. College Currency Money For Business Training Illustrated, Schingoethe, 1993, 463 pages.
    

World Coins

1. (2 Books) J. J. North: English Hammered Coinage. Volume I. c650-1272, 1963, 198 pages [and] English Hammered Coinage Volume 2, Edward I to Charles II 1272-1662, 1960, 183 pages. The first editions.
2. Brand J. D., The English Coinage 1180-1247: Money, Mints and Exchanges British Numismatic Society Special Publication No. 1. 1994. 92pp, 5 b/w plates
3. The English Silver Coinage since 1649. 5th ed., Rayner, 1992, hardcover, 254 pages.
4. Spink. Coins of England & The United Kingdom. Decimal Issues. Standard Catalogue of British Coins. Part 3. London: Spink & Son, Ltd., 2018, Fourth edition, 227 pages.
5. Coins of England and the United Kingdom 48th Edition 2013, Hardcover, 648 pages.
6. Illustrated History of Coins and Tokens Relating to Canada English/French 2005, paperback, 239 pages. (324281726755)
7. Charlton Standard Catalogue Canadian Coins 1995 49th Ed
8. Coins And Tokens Of Scotland, Seab, 1972, hardcover, 160 pages.
9. Sylloge of Coins of The British Isles 22 Part V Hiberno-norse and Anglo-Irish coins, 1975, hardcover
10. Coinage in the Celtic World, Daphne Nash, 2004 Reprint, 153 pages.
11. 2009 Standard Catalog of World Coins 2001-date, softcover, 432 pages.
12. Thomas Simon His Life and Work 1618-1665, Alan J Nathanson, hardcover, 60 pages.

World Tokens/Medals

1. Price Guide to 18th Century Tokens, Schwer, 1983, 175 pages.
2. Seventeenth Century Tokens Of The British Isles Michael Dickinson, first edition, 1986, hardcover, 292 pages.
3. Schwer Price Guide To Unofficial Farthings, paperback, 248 pages.
4. British Tokens And Their Values by Seaby 1970. Hardcover, 199 pages.

50 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What do you collect now ?

I primarily collect the coinage, tokens, and medals produced at the Soho Mint. More broadly, the bulk of my collection consists of the numerous patterns, proofs, and business strikes of English and Irish copper spanning the 17th to 19th centuries. I imagine this will be a lifelong pursuit as there is no shortage of research topics to explore. I would ask what you collect, but I already know! 

2 hours ago, RWB said:

You could consign to Kolbe or one of the other numismatic literature sellers.

The bulk of these books are very inexpensive, and I assumed they would not be interested. Perhaps that assumption was incorrect? 

My collecting interests have almost entirely shifted over the last two decades. In the wake of this, I find myself with a small cache of numismatic literature that no longer suits my needs. It seems prudent to put these books in the hands of fellow collectors who might glean some enjoyment from them instead of collecting dust on my overcrowded bookshelves. Beyond eBay, I am not aware of any other venues to sell/trade inexpensive books where the shipping charges wouldn't get out of hand quickly. In several instances, the shipping charge would likely exceed the cost of the book. Any suggestions? Are there dealers who would likely purchase the entire lot (obviously at a deeply discounted price)? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I have included a list of the books below to give a general idea of the subject matter.

United States Coins

1. Numismatics of Massachusetts, Malcolm Storer, 1981, hardcover, 319 pages.
2. John Hull, The Mint and The Economics of Massachusetts Coinage, Louis Jordan, hardcover, 348 pages.
3. Contemporary Counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollars 2nd Edition By Keith Davignon, 2010, 326 pages.
4. Counterfeit, Mis-Struck, and Unofficial U.S. Coins, hardback, 221 - Don Taxay
5. Dan Holmes Collection of Large Cents, catalogues by Goldbergs McCawley & Grellman, Part III, Large Cent Errors. COMBO The Davy Collection of Half Cent Errors.
6. Flying Eagle & Indian Cents, Richard Snow, 1992, hardcover, 161 pages.
7. Getting Your Two Cents Worth, Kevin Flynn, 1994, 112 pages.
8. The United States Half Dimes- D.W. Valentine, hardcover, 186 Pages.
9. Early Quarter Dollars of the United States 1796-1838 AW Browning, Hardcover, 44 pages, 1981
10. Elite Clashed Morgan Dollars by Kimpton 1st Ed., Soft Cover, 2005,151 pages.
11. Standard Catalogue of United States Coins, 1947, hardcover, 224 pages.
12. History of the United States Mint and its Coinage, Hardcover, 2006, 190 pages.
13. The Treasure Ship S.S. New York Her Story, 1837-1846, Bowers, 2008, 94 pages.

United States Tokens/Medals/Currency

1. Patriotic Civil War Tokens Revised 4th edition 1982 Update 1993 die photos, softcover, 124 pages.
2. Atwood Coffee Catalogue of US & Canadian Transportation Tokens 4th Ed. Vol.1 , hardback, 548.
3. 1973 2nd Edition Feisel's Catalogue Of Parking Tokens Of The World, hardcover, 244 Pages.
4. Alaska Tokens, Ronald J. Benice, 179, hardcover, 208 pages.
5. So-Called Dollars, 2nd Edition, 2008, 191 pages. (Covers intact but multiple folds; contents are okay).
6. 100 Greatest American Medals and Tokens by Jaegar and Bowers (2007), hardcover, 119 pages.
7. College Currency Money For Business Training Illustrated, Schingoethe, 1993, 463 pages.

World Coins

1. (2 Books) J. J. North: English Hammered Coinage. Volume I. c650-1272, 1963, 198 pages [and] English Hammered Coinage Volume 2, Edward I to Charles II 1272-1662, 1960, 183 pages. The first editions.
2. Brand J. D., The English Coinage 1180-1247: Money, Mints and Exchanges British Numismatic Society Special Publication No. 1. 1994. 92pp, 5 b/w plates
3. The English Silver Coinage since 1649. 5th ed., Rayner, 1992, hardcover, 254 pages.
4. Spink. Coins of England & The United Kingdom. Decimal Issues. Standard Catalogue of British Coins. Part 3. London: Spink & Son, Ltd., 2018, Fourth edition, 227 pages.
5. Coins of England and the United Kingdom 48th Edition 2013, Hardcover, 648 pages.
6. Illustrated History of Coins and Tokens Relating to Canada English/French 2005, paperback, 239 pages. (324281726755)
7. Charlton Standard Catalogue Canadian Coins 1995 49th Ed
8. Coins And Tokens Of Scotland, Seab, 1972, hardcover, 160 pages.
9. Sylloge of Coins of The British Isles 22 Part V Hiberno-norse and Anglo-Irish coins, 1975, hardcover
10. Coinage in the Celtic World, Daphne Nash, 2004 Reprint, 153 pages.
11. 2009 Standard Catalog of World Coins 2001-date, softcover, 432 pages.
12. Thomas Simon His Life and Work 1618-1665, Alan J Nathanson, hardcover, 60 pages.

World Tokens/Medals

1. Price Guide to 18th Century Tokens, Schwer, 1983, 175 pages.
2. Seventeenth Century Tokens Of The British Isles Michael Dickinson, first edition, 1986, hardcover, 292 pages.
3. Schwer Price Guide To Unofficial Farthings, paperback, 248 pages.
4. British Tokens And Their Values by Seaby 1970. Hardcover, 199 pages.

General

1. Metallurgy in Numismatics Volume 4 Royal Numismatic Society Special Publication, 1998, hardcover, 538 pages.
2. The Coin Collector's Survival Manual, Revised Seventh Edition Scott A. Travers, Softcover, 401 pages.

If this post violates any rules, I apologize and respectfully ask the moderator to remove the thread.

It looks like Spring 2013, Issue #2 will be a nice cache of useful information for one of my projects. Thank you for sharing! 

The mystery is solved! With a helpful nudge from a fellow forum member, I spoke with an amiable and helpful gentleman from Colony Coin Co. today. Much to my surprise, he located a copy of the original auction catalog from 1968. Unfortunately, the descriptions provided no new information beyond what I already knew.