Can Grading Company's Start Adding A #Number Grade to UNC Details Coins? 1 1

[Dave1384]

On 4/7/2024 at 6:16 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Aw pipe down!  What a waste of a perfectly good joke!   

A sense of humor. At 70 I better start to develop one ! 

[VKurtB]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:41 AM, Captain Murder said:

Makes sense. My submission I just got back and my morgans from last January look like they were graded once, quickly, give generic grades with no second opinion for superlatives such as high levels of sparkles in the Wreaths, star quality and percentage of high quality stars to overall number, etc. NgC grading is worth the money, but a lot of grades are unfairly low and it's not worth resubmitted. 

NGC should also Buy and Sell Coins.

NGC is not ALLOWED to buy or sell coins, NOR ARE THEIR GRADERS. It is an ethical problem, something you need to learn about, apparently. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:41 AM, Captain Murder said:

NGC should also Buy and Sell Coins.

Can you think of a single reason why they don't?

[VKurtB]

On 5/2/2024 at 9:37 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Can you think of a single reason why they don't?

Yeah, it’s unethical.

[J P M]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:22 AM, VKurtB said:

Yeah, it’s unethical.

True but there are others,   VaultBox Coins and Collecting - VaultBox

[Sandon]

   The primary reason for the creation of third-party grading services in the mid-1980s was that they would give an opinion as to the grade of a coin without the biases inherent in being the coin's prospective buyer or seller.  That is why it would be unethical for grading services to engage in the buying or selling of coins. Their opinions would then be of no more value than that of any established dealer.

[VKurtB]

On 5/3/2024 at 6:53 AM, J P M said:

True but there are others,   VaultBox Coins and Collecting - VaultBox

“It’s twue, it’s twue.”

[numisport]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:41 AM, Captain Murder said:

Makes sense. My submission I just got back and my morgans from last January look like they were graded once, quickly, give generic grades with no second opinion for superlatives such as high levels of sparkles in the Wreaths, star quality and percentage of high quality stars to overall number, etc. NgC grading is worth the money, but a lot of grades are unfairly low and it's not worth resubmitted. 

NGC should also Buy and Sell Coins.

So glad that NGC does not deal in coins. For years PCGS showcased their Board of Experts who are generally PCGS only dealers which to me is a huge conflict of interest.

[powermad5000]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:46 AM, Captain Murder said:

when u feel as if your coin received an unfair low grade.

I have a feeling you got one of your submissions back and received these grades. It has happened to me in my over roughly 700 submissions (I have retained roughly 500 slabs and sold off some of my self grading mistakes). I will be honest to all in this thread. I felt the same way you did when I started getting details grades back and I even approached NGC with the same idea here as you opened this thread with. The NGC response was the slab says Details grade does not determine value and that impairments negate numerical grading. It took me to think through the process and adjust my thinking to what the situation is.

The problem with assigning a numerical grade to a details coin is that would literally directly affect the value of straight graded coins in the market. Imagine under that system then having two slabs side by side, one labeled MS 65 and another labeled Details 65 - Cleaned. Everybody would know the FMV for the straight grade, but then the seller of the Details slab will be asking a price near the straight graded, just somewhat lower and also arguing that it is better than an MS 64 straight grade. That is the exact why a details numbering system won't work. There is one or many impairments involved. The price of such an impaired coin should not and cannot be based upon a numerically graded specimen and its value should be effectively lowered on the number and severity of impairments. Take for example some of the Trade Dollars I have seen over the years. There are some I have seen that probably would have graded MS 66 or MS 67 with the quality in the rim areas of the coin, but are so heavily chopmarked on both sides that they have no remaining center details left and are somewhat bent. You could not give that coin a label that says Details 66 in that state. Trying to say that coin is better details than a straight graded 65 would simply not be true.

Once again, let impairments and the number and severity of impairments sink in. Here would be another side by side example of why you cannot assign a number to a details coin. If one slab is AU Details - Cleaned side by side to a slab of the exact same type and mintmark of coin and the other slab is labelled AU Details - Corrosion, Rim Damaged, Tooled. Now if both of those said AU 55 Details, do you see where the seller of the more impaired coin would begin to argue that his coin is worth just as much as the one that is cleaned because they both say 55 on them? It is those exact situations of why you cannot assign any kind of numeric to a details coin.

Keep in mind, many decades ago, cleaning coins was partly considered an acceptable practice, and in recent decades collectors have upped the ante only willing to pay premium for coins with exceptional surfaces.

To conclude, when my first details slabs started coming back, it made me look harder at my coins. It taught me where my self grading was lacking. It taught me to look for specific issues when I do my inspections. If anything, it improved my self grading immensely. I have in recent years finally become better (although not perfect) at detecting cleaned coins and get many dealers who look at me surprised when I pass the coin back to them very quickly because I see hairlines right away or detect some other problem with the coin quickly. Needless to say, when my submissions return now, I get a box full of straight grades, a details grade that I knew was going to be there, and maybe only one where I have to sit down with and try to find where I missed something.

I think you should learn from those details grades you are getting back and strive for more quality.

[Captain Murder]

On 5/4/2024 at 2:09 PM, powermad5000 said:

I have a feeling you got one of your submissions back and received these grades. It has happened to me in my over roughly 700 submissions (I have retained roughly 500 slabs and sold off some of my self grading mistakes). I will be honest to all in this thread. I felt the same way you did when I started getting details grades back and I even approached NGC with the same idea here as you opened this thread with. The NGC response was the slab says Details grade does not determine value and that impairments negate numerical grading. It took me to think through the process and adjust my thinking to what the situation is.

The problem with assigning a numerical grade to a details coin is that would literally directly affect the value of straight graded coins in the market. Imagine under that system then having two slabs side by side, one labeled MS 65 and another labeled Details 65 - Cleaned. Everybody would know the FMV for the straight grade, but then the seller of the Details slab will be asking a price near the straight graded, just somewhat lower and also arguing that it is better than an MS 64 straight grade. That is the exact why a details numbering system won't work. There is one or many impairments involved. The price of such an impaired coin should not and cannot be based upon a numerically graded specimen and its value should be effectively lowered on the number and severity of impairments. Take for example some of the Trade Dollars I have seen over the years. There are some I have seen that probably would have graded MS 66 or MS 67 with the quality in the rim areas of the coin, but are so heavily chopmarked on both sides that they have no remaining center details left and are somewhat bent. You could not give that coin a label that says Details 66 in that state. Trying to say that coin is better details than a straight graded 65 would simply not be true.

Once again, let impairments and the number and severity of impairments sink in. Here would be another side by side example of why you cannot assign a number to a details coin. If one slab is AU Details - Cleaned side by side to a slab of the exact same type and mintmark of coin and the other slab is labelled AU Details - Corrosion, Rim Damaged, Tooled. Now if both of those said AU 55 Details, do you see where the seller of the more impaired coin would begin to argue that his coin is worth just as much as the one that is cleaned because they both say 55 on them? It is those exact situations of why you cannot assign any kind of numeric to a details coin.

Keep in mind, many decades ago, cleaning coins was partly considered an acceptable practice, and in recent decades collectors have upped the ante only willing to pay premium for coins with exceptional surfaces.

To conclude, when my first details slabs started coming back, it made me look harder at my coins. It taught me where my self grading was lacking. It taught me to look for specific issues when I do my inspections. If anything, it improved my self grading immensely. I have in recent years finally become better (although not perfect) at detecting cleaned coins and get many dealers who look at me surprised when I pass the coin back to them very quickly because I see hairlines right away or detect some other problem with the coin quickly. Needless to say, when my submissions return now, I get a box full of straight grades, a details grade that I knew was going to be there, and maybe only one where I have to sit down with and try to find where I missed something.

I think you should learn from those details grades you are getting back and strive for more quality.

Makes sense. I have 4 Peace Dollars I'm dreading sending in. Looked like 66's or 67's when I bought them. Well have to wait and see.

[VKurtB]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:22 AM, Captain Murder said:

Makes sense. I have 4 Peace Dollars I'm dreading sending in. Looked like 66's or 67's when I bought them. Well have to wait and see.

Probably WELL short of 66 or 67. 

[powermad5000]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:22 AM, Captain Murder said:

I have 4 Peace Dollars I'm dreading sending in. Looked like 66's or 67's when I bought them.

Unless you paid a high sum of money to acquire these, I can pretty much guarantee they will not achieve those grades. Using the very common 1923 Peace Dollar as an example, of all that NGC has graded (362,489 total), less than 5,000 achieved those grades. Anybody selling ones at those levels would have surely made a very good dent in your wallet to part with ones of that quality.

If you are dreading sending anything in, it just means you need to do a lot more work on your self grading. Most of my submissions at this point come back graded with what I thought they would. Its only taken me over 45 years to get to this point however, so settle in for the long haul, do the work, but enjoy the chase along the way. Be glad for the people you meet along the way. Some unique individuals make the hobby fun and interesting on their own even if coins were not involved at all.