Comprehensive Research on the So Called 1964 "SMS" Coins Is In the Works - What Questions Do Members Here Have About these Coins? 0

[FlyingAl]

Fire away!

A few drafts have been in the works, but I want to be sure the final draft answers all the questions out there.

[Henri Charriere]

Actually, speaking strictly for those unacquainted with these strikes but bowled over by the heated exchanges attendant to their existence as debated here over the years, I believe a conclusive, no holds barred comprehensive research study would be welcomed by all members, active combatants or not, to put this matter to rest to rest, once and for all, for all time. 

[J P M]

Ok from my understanding the SMS coins were not even thought of until 1966. When the mint got tired of listening to the collectors complaining about no proofs being struck. And the only years were 1965,66 and 67 anything in 1964 would have been a Special Strike not a Special Mint Set. Is that a good start, FlyingAL 

[Sandon]

   As it so happens, I had just posted a response to a member who purported to have a so-called 1964 "SMS" half dollar based on "die markers".   See https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/432733-1964-sms-kennedy-half-dollar.  We have to deal with such claims with some frequency. 

   I hope that your research will resolve once and for all where these coins came from so that we can definitively answer the question whether it is possible that more of them may be found "in the wild". A definitive description of their characteristics would also be helpful.

 

[FlyingAl]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:27 PM, J P M said:

Ok from my understanding the SMS coins were not even thought of until 1966. When the mint got tired of listening to the collectors complaining about no proofs being struck. And the only years were 1965,66 and 67 anything in 1964 would have been a Special Strike not a Special Mint Set. Is that a good start, FlyingAL 

Even special strike would be a stretch. The name as it stands at "SMS" will probably never change, even though the coins bear no resemblance to such coins. 

[FlyingAl]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:38 PM, Sandon said:

   As it so happens, I had just posted a response to a member who purported to have a so-called 1964 "SMS" half dollar based on "die markers".   See https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/432733-1964-sms-kennedy-half-dollar.  We have to deal with such claims with some frequency. 

   I hope that your research will resolve once and for all where these coins came from so that we can definitively answer the question whether it is possible that more of them may be found "in the wild". A definitive description of their characteristics would also be helpful.

 

The characteristics are all the same - struck once on a toggle press from fresh dies and handled individually. They will all share the same die markers, which doesn't stop those who have dreams of striking it rich from imagining the die markers on their coins. 

[Sandon]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:08 PM, FlyingAl said:

They will all share the same die markers,

   Were the dies then used to strike coins for circulation, which could result in hundreds of thousands of regular pieces having the same die markers?

[FlyingAl]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:16 PM, Sandon said:

   Were the dies then used to strike coins for circulation, which could result in hundreds of thousands of regular pieces having the same die markers?

This was not confirmed, but it is possible, though unlikely.

Edited February 16 by FlyingAl

[Coinbuf]

I have no questions myself, and I look forward to reading your final work.   But sadly, I also know that no matter how many books or articles are written it won't deter the treasure seekers who only believe you tube from their ridiculous claims and future posts about how many they have found.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:08 PM, Coinbuf said:

I have no questions myself, and I look forward to reading your final work.   But sadly, I also know that no matter how many books or articles are written it won't deter the treasure seekers who only believe you tube from their ridiculous claims and future posts about how many they have found.

In all fairness, in the absence of a proliferation of storefronts, roadside stands and coin shows near where these whippersnappers live, what other options do they have?  Some social media platforms are downright dangerous.  Others have been accused of being an accessory to the premature deaths of their loved ones.  I don't condemn YouTube but, then again, I access it for information and entertainment. The printed word is powerful.  Can you imagine a parent or guardian today saying to their child, "if you read it in The Sun (whether Santa Claus exists) it must be true!  Television is just as persuasive.  I have seen some scary topic inquiries posted from time to time on the Forum.  We must never allow ourselves to become disenchanted with newbies or descend into impatience or give in to battle fatigue.  As the saying goes, a stranger is nothing more than a friend we haven't met.  Some members are very direct, but I understand their frustration.  I am not particularly enamored of SMS coins, but if there are those motivated enough to separate fact from fiction and clear the air of common misbeliefs, I am all for it and applaud their efforts.

[powermad5000]

I would like to have a comprehensive list of SMS coins in general (think discussions of 2005-2010 nickels) as well and others found in special issued sets more modern (talk of one being in the Botanic Garden set). Hopefully that doesn't create an embolism in your brain or cause the research to become too extensive that work stops on it.

The focus on the time period of 1964-1967 is just the start to me. Also, where did these end up? Only in issued sets? Just as singular coins? I suppose it is possible that any coin can end up in circulation somehow (typically by mistake as evidenced in proof quarters found in circulation [even I got one of these in my change from a fast food establishment]). Were any issued strictly for circulation or were they all to be treated as proofs? I may be exposing some of my ignorance here on the subject but I don't have much focus on "special" coins in the hobby as I collect mostly issues intended for circulation.

I also would like to know when this research becomes available and how to get a copy of it.

[J P M]

Whenever I see one of these sets, I try to pick them up, the 1965 flat pack was $13 but these SMS holders are $10 a piece. These coins are nice SMS, they are almost proof quality.  

Edited February 15 by J P M

[RWB]

"Ignorance + Greed = 1964 SMS"

The falsely called "1964 SMS" coins are merely early strikes from ordinary dies. The identical situation occurs every time new dies are put into service. Those dies go on to make hundreds of thousands of coins before they deteriorate and are fulled from service. The entire story AND certification is a lie and a fraud.

[Please give FlyingAl the space to complete his research and article. This kind of thing is not accomplished on a deadline.]

[zadok]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:07 PM, FlyingAl said:

Even special strike would be a stretch. The name as it stands at "SMS" will probably never change, even though the coins bear no resemblance to such coins. 

...astute...there r two operative words in SMS, both start with S....

[Just Bob]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:07 PM, FlyingAl said:

No, they were not. 

Hold on. Are you saying that the die pair was used to strike only a dozen or so examples (or how ever many were sent to the Smithsonian plus the ones allegedly belonging to the Eva Adams estate) and then retired? If that is the case, this story just got a lot more interesting. I am really looking forward to the results of your research.

[FlyingAl]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:15 PM, Just Bob said:

Hold on. Are you saying that the die pair was used to strike only a dozen or so examples (or how ever many were sent to the Smithsonian plus the ones allegedly belonging to the Eva Adams estate) and then retired? If that is the case, this story just got a lot more interesting. I am really looking forward to the results of your research.

This was not fully documented. The dies could have been used in service long after the Smithsonian coins were struck. 

Edited February 14 by FlyingAl

[J P M]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:20 PM, FlyingAl said:

That appears to be the case. I believe this was actually one of the more published facts. 

I would not be surprised if some of the Kennedy family ended up with a half dozen coins just because.    

[zadok]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:20 PM, FlyingAl said:

That appears to be the case. I believe this was actually one of the more published facts. 

...true plus a few others that were privately distributed, contrary to what one so-called "expert" espouses here n elsewhere....

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2024 at 6:13 PM, J P M said:

I would not be surprised if some of the Kennedy family ended up with a half dozen coins just because.    

Jackie Kennedy Onassis’ estate sale included some Kennedy halves, but they were considered unremarkable at the time. Only their provenance somewhat bumped up the prices.

[RWB]

Great way for an author to learn what most interests collectors about a controversial subject !

Nice.

Edited February 13 by RWB

[Errorists]

Which ones have die cracks?

Which ones are varieties?

[Just Bob]

I see the answers to some of the questions have been changed. I will not belabor the points here, but will just wait for the finished article. Should be really interesting.

[J.H.X.]

Hello,

I am brand new here, and, I think, from reading the information in this thread, much less experienced than most all of you. Thank you for tolerating this post :).

I will add that it is intriguing the 1964 SMS specimen(s) "known to exist" are described to display specific characteristics. Also, the facts and circumstances surrounding their manufacture (the 1964 SMS 50C) does not seem to touch upon any of the certain and specific legal, legislative, or otherwise, any of the possible Mint objectives surrounding the production of the type 1964 SMS.

So, I look forward to the article and information, upcoming. I hope to hear where those dies may have ended up. Thank you.

[numisport]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:40 PM, FlyingAl said:

Fire away!

A few drafts have been in the works, but I want to be sure the final draft answers all the questions out there.

Can't wait for your finished presentation. Also would like to see in print your previous work on "36 to "42 cameo proof die pairing. My link to that no longer works. 

As you've probably already noticed ATS you can find an interesting post by Mark Feld about the origin of these so called "64 SMS coins right now.

Edited February 15 by numisport

[Sandon]

On 2/15/2024 at 1:22 PM, J.H.X. said:

Again, I am new to this. It is my novice opinion that these are not business strikes.

   @J.H.X.--Welcome to the NGC chat board. If you want to post photos of a coin and ask questions about that coin, please do so as a new topic, and include full, cropped photos of each side of the coin as well as any close-ups.

 Based on the photos you posted, there is nothing special about your 1964 Kennedy half dollar. It has normal frosty luster, the usual strike with weakness at the bottom of the shield, and extensive abrasions indicating that it originated in a regular mint bag of several thousand coins. The patches of die polish marks do not make the coin special; many coins show die polish marks when reasonably new or repolished. The so-called "SMS" pieces have a uniformly satiny finish with essentially continuous die polish in the fields, a full strike, and are in very high grade, indicating special handling. As I pointed out on another recent thread that you have reviewed, another perfectly ordinary coin in my own 1964 mint set displays some of the so-called "die markers".

[J.H.X.]

Ok great thank you!

[FlyingAl]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:53 AM, Just Bob said:

I see the answers to some of the questions have been changed. I will not belabor the points here, but will just wait for the finished article. Should be really interesting.

Yes. I don't want my replies here to affect how people will receive the finished article. None of the previous or now edited posts really put that in jeopardy, but these posts have much less context than the full article, and could be misinterpreted.