BLDunn85 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I was at a small coin show/ gathering today and was looking around and bought a grab bag for 4.50 so i wasnt expecting much for the price opened it up and seen the slabbed 1902 barber dime with a bar code on the label and looked legit. Me being me i sat down was eating and looked the grading service up and unless my quick search was all fake this was a real coin fake graded slabbed coin. Even though it wouldnt be much anyways i wasnt having it when i walked back over to the booth asked if he had any more of these great pgs graded coins for cheap he had a box of what i would say was around 1000 of these in different coins. After I seen and finally told him he was a scam artist and i wanted my money back and he could well you can imagine the words and he argued with me pleeding it was top 3 grading service blah blah blah when i said ok i pulled the 500.00 i brought with me and said show me and ill buy 500.00 worth and thats when he motioned for the cop to come over and i got thrown out for causing a disturbance even though i wasnt yelling or causing a scene what can be done about this because that was alot of fake slabs and grades with the exact sticker and all a professional grading company of cards was using . I even asked the cop what could be done he just shrugged and said write it off. It just made me mad since im just getting into collecting and already ran into one of those guys. If your new to coins and collecting please just be on the look out for fake grading as well as fake coins. The cases looked messed up where i pryed the 4 sides to open and tell if the coins real or it was flawless GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Well, I will tell you there are many lesser known "grading services" that make their own holders. You can purchase your own holders from Amazon (China) and print your own labels and become your own self grading specialist out of your garage or basement. It doesn't necessarily mean the coins in those cheap slabs are actually fake. And everyone's self grade is their opinion which they are entitled to make not much different than right here on these forums where members here disagree over grades of presented coins. You could start your own grading service but you will have a tremendous uphill battle trying to gain credibility going up against the two big TPG's (NGC and PCGS). And credibility is where it is at. If you are a terrible self grader, you will consistently have problems and issues in this hobby. I have seen some of these slabbed coins by little known grading services with ridiculous grades on the labels in the slabs. There was a rash of Morgans a couple or few years ago on eBay of slabbed coins from NPS or NMC (or whatever, I forget the name on the holders), but they had tons of Morgans with grades of MS 68 and even a few in MS 69. Everybody knows those are six figure + or million dollar + coins and for all the sudden a rash of them to hit the marketplace is unheard of. I think it is good for calling him out on his claim that this service is one of the "top 3" as it most certainly is not. It does stink that you got thrown out when you didn't really make a scene in the first place, but then take it with a grain of salt, and next time, just make a face to face mention to the seller of their inaccuracy and walk away. It is much easier to call someone out by creating a post like this than to get into any extracurricular activity at a show. JT2 and BLDunn85 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLDunn85 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 I agree. He saved me some money . I was just hunting silver quarters and got that barber dime and i got a seated liberty dime and called him out so not a bad hunt for the day. I think it rubs me the wrong way more that something like this will discourage or make a new coin collector quit collecting . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 To me, if it's not one of the top three--ANACS, NGC, PCGS--it's what I call a JGS, "Joe's Grading Service." That's in the category of "anyone with a computer and some seed capital can decide he's (few women would be this dishonest, thus he) a grader, and has every reason to tell the submitter what they want to hear. Their slabs mean nothing and should receive no validation. And yeah, this is one of the things that drive new collectors out of the hobby. You got thrown out mainly because he knew that being confronted in public was hurting his scam operation business. Being thrown out for that is a badge of honor. You could probably find him on Yelp, though, and leave him a lasting memory. JT2 and BLDunn85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLDunn85 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 I looked he wasnt any where on there it was one of those if u pay for a booth its yours to sell at little town shows and even the guy from the pawn shop i trade and buy from said hes never seen the guy before but that he packed up and was gone 5 minutes after i was escorted out. I got him outta there atleast . Even the pawn shop guy said the same as you it wasnt i was making a scene it was you caught him red handed and he didnt want his rep to be tarnished but in my book his souls tarnished and should be banded and nutured like a hog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLDunn85 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 Honestly if it wasnt for this site and reading alot of older posts and research of my own i woulda never known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Basement slabbers have been around for decades, nothing really new and not really much that anyone can do about it. Yes this type of junk or dreck as it is called at times can and does have the unfortunate effect of deterring some new collectors. On a bright note, at $4.50 the seller is not really ripping anyone off when you consider that your Barber dime is worth $1.65 in silver value alone, assuming it is real. This type of thing is only an issue when the coin is a counterfeit and the money is more significant, I get that we shouldn't tolerate this at any level, but this is not the hill I would die over personally. Sandon and BLDunn85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) Although "PGS" is a "basement slabber" and not a reputable grading service, the well-worn 1902 Barber dime in the holder isn't necessarily misdescribed as "G-4" and "scratched", and I don't think the dealer did anything wrong by putting it in a grab bag sold for $4.50, especially if the bag contained additional coins. From what I can see, the coin is genuine. (Coin World currently lists a 1902 Barber dime at $5.50 in G 4.) The dealer was wrong to call "PGS" (not to be confused with PCGS) a "top three grading service". Unfortunately, there are many (usually low-end) coins in these "off-brand" holders, which end up (often after being sold by the original submitter or purchaser) in the inventories of smaller dealers. As long as they sell the coins for reasonable prices based on a reasonable appraisal of the coin in the holder and not necessarily what is printed on the label, I see nothing wrong with this. Their only alternative with coins like the one posted would be to crack them of the holders and put them in stapled 2x2s or flips, in this case with the same grade and sell them for the same price. For the record, the "top tier" grading services are NGC (Numismatic Guaranty Company, formerly Corporation), PCGS (Professional Coin Grading Service), and presumably the new CAC (Certified Acceptance Corporation) grading service. The "second tier" but nevertheless reputable services are ANACS (not an acronym since the early 1990s, when it was sold by the American Numismatic Association) and ICG (Independent Coin Graders). ANACS is respected for certifying lesser known but legitimate die varieties that the top tier services don't and for offering a lower-priced alternative to the top tier services for two and three figure collector coins. ICG gets mixed reviews. All collectors should develop grading skills to evaluate coins for themselves, whether or not certified by any service. There are a few now defunct services that were respected in their time, including Hallmark and PCI (holders with green or red trimmed labels only). PCI was ultimately sold to a dealer who used its equipment mostly to slab his own inventory, which was mostly overgraded. I understand that these later PCI holders have brown or gold trimmed labels and should be avoided. SEGS (formerly operated by Larry Briggs, a legitimate dealer and varieties attributor) has a mixed reputation but shouldn't be regarded as a "basement slabber" either. Edited February 3 by Sandon correct typo GoldFinger1969 and BLDunn85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/3/2024 at 2:46 PM, BLDunn85 said: I looked he wasnt any where on there it was one of those if u pay for a booth its yours to sell at little town shows and even the guy from the pawn shop i trade and buy from said hes never seen the guy before but that he packed up and was gone 5 minutes after i was escorted out. I got him outta there atleast . Even the pawn shop guy said the same as you it wasnt i was making a scene it was you caught him red handed and he didnt want his rep to be tarnished but in my book his souls tarnished and should be banded and nutured like a hog. A lot of those little shows near me in the Willamette Valley (Oregon); most are run by local clubs and don't have too much use for the scummy sorts of dealers. Commercially run shows (there is one near me that operates quarterly) might not be so picky. Sounds like you at least left him with a bit of a commercial paddling, which is all to the good. BLDunn85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) It is always going to be a challenge for new collectors. Having a forum like this can be a tremendous help. Here are some Joe's garage slabs, The white one is a joke not even close but the green ones are from Peter Dunne a local dealer and very knowledgeable coin grader that passed away last year. I have looked at many of his coins and his grading was as good as anyone's. Edited February 3 by J P M BLDunn85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 The holders with the dark green inserts are Coin World holders that can be purchased by anyone at amosadvantage.com and used to keep uncertified coins in slab boxes. They can easily be opened and re-closed. If, as here, the labels don't purport them to be a product of a third-party grading service, I wouldn't classify them as a "basement slabber" product. GoldFinger1969 and BLDunn85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) I don't see anything wrong with collectors grading coins themselves, which they should do anyway even with the big boys slabs, and self-slabbing them like with the dark green CW slabs JPM posted. I do that myself like with the attached, as do others, to protect and identify coins since the vast majority of the coins in my collection are raw. But I draw the line when basement-slabbers try to make them look like a legit reputable TPG slab, such as the white one with the yellow label JPM posted or the one originally posted from the show that both have a bar code and everything. I'm glad the OP called that guy out at the show hawking them as being a top grading company slab, as should others when you see stuff like that. Edited February 5 by EagleRJO GoldFinger1969 and BLDunn85 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/3/2024 at 4:34 PM, BLDunn85 said: I agree. He saved me some money . I was just hunting silver quarters and got that barber dime and i got a seated liberty dime and called him out so not a bad hunt for the day. I think it rubs me the wrong way more that something like this will discourage or make a new coin collector quit collecting . BL, welcome to the forum. You learned a pretty inexpensive lesson...be CAREFUL with what you buy especially as you spend more dear $$$ to you. That holder clearly looks like it was created to mimic the legitimate PCGS. PGS...PCGS....see ? Research what you want....buy certified unless you are confident of your grading skills....when in doubt (especially on pricier acquisitions) run it by this Forum here. Never feel pressured to buy something, coins are always available, especially the ones that you as a new collector are most likely looking at. BLDunn85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLDunn85 Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 Thank you all and yea im starting my collection off besides inherited coins with the (50) pcgs state silver quarters and work my way up from there or until as goldfinger said my grading skills are alot better and im confident in buying un certified coins ( and only pcgs silver quarters because of the flag banners ) but then ngc,anacs,pcgs and places i know that are legit. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Did you catch the dealers name or company? GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/5/2024 at 11:25 AM, BLDunn85 said: Thank you all and yea im starting my collection off besides inherited coins with the (50) pcgs state silver quarters and work my way up from there or until as goldfinger said my grading skills are alot better and im confident in buying un certified coins ( and only pcgs silver quarters because of the flag banners ) but then ngc,anacs,pcgs and places i know that are legit. Do LOTS of reading....get a Red Book...read Forum threads, internet websites/pages (by reputable sources, of course !), and specialty books on the types of coins you like. For me, that is largely gold coins (Double Eagles) and Morgan Silver Dollars. Lots of books on them for me to read (some updated, some dated). Reading and looking at coins are how you become knowledgeagle in this hobby. BLDunn85 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLDunn85 Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 When i started asking him questions is when he motioned the cop over. So unfortunately i didnt but im chaulking it to you live and learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/5/2024 at 1:13 PM, EagleRJO said: Did you catch the dealers name or company? If someone was doing something ILLEGAL then maybe you report them to the show producer. But I'm not sure it is worth it to go after someone who is just "slimy." There are bad actors in any group, BL. Just take your business elsewhere if the guy is that detestable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/5/2024 at 1:21 PM, BLDunn85 said: When i started asking him questions is when he motioned the cop over. So unfortunately i didnt but im chaulking it to you live and learn Maybe he thought you were being aggressive...maybe he just overreacted because he had a similar negative experince trying to screw someone else a previous time. Always be civil...don't raise your voice...and if another dealer or a show promoter or even a policeman comes over and asks what is going on, just clearly state your objection if it comes to that. Like I said, unless it's clearly ILLEGAL, even if it is slimy business practices, all you can do is complain to the show promoter and/or take your business elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Not to go after them, just so other collectors are aware. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I see three takeaways here: 1. While there are collectors here who are intimately familiar with the various TPGS and their progression of holders (generations) through the years, most I would assume are not. It is clear to me the OP's first example represents a deliberate attempt at deception. PCGS would have grounds to sue for trade-mark infringement. As the operation appears to be limited, the seller could be served with a "cease and desist" order. 2. While neutral observers describe the top two TPGS as being such, a careful reading of the literature put out by each of the top two claim superiority in carefully worded language. They will cite the number of coins certified, the storied collections they have handled, and the record prices realized at auctions. 3. All irregularities encountered by buyers at coin shows, however small, whether advertised or not, should be reported, either to the on-site organizer, if one is present -- and documentary evidence collected and presented on a forum here, or, if egregious enough, to the TPGS whose reputation is possibly being tarnished. I thank the OP for introducing this topic and the eye-opening information provided herein. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
