Can someone explain some dimes grades for me? 1 1

[Halbrook Family]

I recently bought a set of dimes. 1946 - 1976. So I have been looking at this sites coin explorer. The first coin got a MS68. The second one got a MS 68 FT *+. I don't get it. How are the dimes graded? I would personally throw these dimes in my junk silver pile. What makes a $1000 dime? 

[Mike Meenderink]

Hello and welcome to the forum. If I am reading your question correctly, I believe you are asking why a coin that looks like this could receive such a high grade and possibly why? Well for the experienced coin collector or grader there are a few major things that make a coin grade well. First and foremost, the coin must be 100% undamaged and not cleaned.  Second the details of the coin must be as crisp and clear as possible. Third the fields of the coin must have few or be clear from distracting marks at 5x magnification. Fourth the color, texture and pinwheel light refraction effect of the coins surface must be as just from the mint. Fifth the coins luster commonly referred to in the coin world as "original mint luster or skin" must be present...this describes the "frosty" appearance of these higher graded business strike coins.  The 2 coins you posted above both display ALL these high-quality grading characteristics. If you are still puzzled by the toning or coloring of these coins and them still receiving a high grade let me, explain. Toning or coloring on coins is common and happens to copper, gold and silver coins. It is a natural oxidation and can be the natural state of a coin if not added artificially. If this toning is appealing to the eye and it is considered a gradable coin the toning would perhaps in some instances slightly increase the grade for eye appeal. However, if a coin exhibits a dark, rough or unpleasing toning most professional graders would classify the coin as damaged by the environment and the coin would receive a Details Enviromental Damage grade. The 2 coins above have a nice eye appeal for a collector that enjoys rainbow toned dimes. Many collectors cherish these multicolor coins. Some love them some hate them. The grades on the holders are an accurate representation of the features of the coins even with the toning... Hope this helps.  Cheers

Edited January 18 by Mike Meenderink

[JKK]

Because they are toned, but well struck and without wear. It was evidently determined that they have full original mint luster, which hopefully you understand doesn't mean the same as what the world's semiliterates call "shinny" and what people with junior high or better educations call "shiny."

[Sandon]

    The star ("*") grade is only awarded by NGC and is not recognized by the A.N.A. Grading Guide.  It indicates what NGC regards as exceptional eye appeal for the grade, which includes a coin that is regarded (by some) as having unusually "attractive" toning. The brown and speckly toning on these coins was referred to as "tarnish" when I began collecting and was regarded as ugly and undesirable. I still do. The iridescent toning may be attractive, but it is often a matter of opinion whether it occurred naturally or was artificially contrived. The "FT" means that the two bands at the bottom of the torch are complete, which isn't very unusual on either the 1948 or 1948-D issue.

    I personally find the prices paid for some of these coins absurd, especially when the coin is a common one like these Roosevelt dimes. The people who buy these coins are usually registry set competitors who, as far as I am concerned, have more money than sense. I would just as soon have nice, brilliant "white" examples of these coins, which have NGC Price Guide values of $20 and $25 respectively if graded MS 65 FT and are likely available for $10 or so apiece uncertified.

[powermad5000]

If the strike is superb and the surfaces are unadulterated, original, and in pristine condition, despite the toning of the surface which is considered natural and not damage by the environment, the coin will grade based on its merits. As noted by @Sandon, some collectors seek out wildly toned coins and will pay well in excess of premium to obtain such pieces. I am not a fan of silver toned like this either and I personally will not pay the sometimes insane premiums for them. Below I have two photos of an NGC graded 1948 D MS 64 FT which I am currently selling on eBay. Maybe it will help for you to see the differences in strike and surface. It has some distracting marks.

Edited January 18 by powermad5000

[Halbrook Family]

This coin nis ms68*. To me it looks like in the right bottom it's corroded. Is it not? 

I do see however on some of my dimes the bottom band is lacking. A weak strike I guess. How can you tell a really good dime that might be worthy of grading? Not that I'm going to send any in but I wonder what ones are the very best. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:38 PM, powermad5000 said:

If the strike is superb and the surfaces are unadulterated, original, and in pristine condition, despite the toning of the surface which is considered natural and not damage by the environment, the coin will grade based on its merits. As noted by @Sandon, some collectors seek out wildly toned coins and will pay well in excess of premium to obtain such pieces. I am not a fan of silver toned like this either and I personally will not pay the sometimes insane premiums for them. Below I have two photos of an NGC graded 1948 D MS 64 FT which I am currently selling on eBay. Maybe it will help for you to see the differences in strike and surface. It has some distracting marks.

The mark on the check perhaps. Maybe the mark by his nose. 

[Halbrook Family]

What is full torch

[Halbrook Family]

On the torch there are two bands. They both have a line through the middle of it. Lots of dimes do not have that line. Does one look for dimes where that line is visible? 

[“”]

On 1/18/2024 at 8:44 AM, edhalbrook said:

This coin nis ms68*. To me it looks like in the right bottom it's corroded. Is it not? 

I do see however on some of my dimes the bottom band is lacking. A weak strike I guess. How can you tell a really good dime that might be worthy of grading? Not that I'm going to send any in but I wonder what ones are the very best. 

I own this coin and I assure you it is has no corrosion.

[“”]

The Roosevelt dimes in the silver years of 1946 - 1964 is a great set and can be economical to collect in relatively high grades. There are quite a few collectors who seek out FT specimens only which by NGC standards is the toughest in the industry. In order to qualify as a FT specimen the top and bottom bands must be fully split. In addition, the vertical bands must show definition.
 

There are several dates and mints that are famous for beautiful toning  from sitting in albums for years, especially Wayne Raymond albums. Several of the original mint sets from the 50’s can also impart impressive toning. 

Toning is in the eyes of the beholder and is sought after in all series by some collectors.

 

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

Am I not doing something right? Why won't it appear on the verification?

[J P M]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:18 AM, Simple Collector said:

The Roosevelt dimes in the silver years of 1946 - 1964 is a great set and can be economical to collect in relatively high grades. There are quite a few collectors who seek out FT specimens only which by NGC standards is the toughest in the industry. In order to qualify as a FT specimen the top and bottom bands must be fully split. In addition, the vertical bands must show definition.
 

There are several dates and mints that are famous for beautiful toning  from sitting in albums for years, especially Wayne Raymond albums. Several of the original mint sets from the 50’s can also impart impressive toning. 

Toning is in the eyes of the beholder and is sought after in all series by some collectors.

 

I do not search for toned nickels for my collection but If I find a nice one at a good price, I will pick it up. My collection is so big a little variety goes a long way.

[“”]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:28 PM, J P M said:

I do not search for toned nickels for my collection but If I find a nice one at a good price, I will pick it up. My collection is so big a little variety goes a long way.

Probably 95% of my Roosevelt Silver dime set is toned. I also have quite a number of Jefferson Nickels of the war years that have amazing color!

 

[Halbrook Family]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:08 AM, Simple Collector said:

I own this coin and I assure you it is has no corrosion.

I don't get what is good about it. A good strike coin I assume. I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins. Trying to figure out what makes a dime good. Or better then good. 

[Halbrook Family]

So looking at the band and seeing a split is a first good sign? That's a tough one. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:47 AM, edhalbrook said:

I don't get what is good about it. A good strike coin I assume. I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins. Trying to figure out what makes a dime good. Or better then good. 

I think joining a local coin club would benefit you greatly and going to a few shows to interact with other collectors and see some coins. A lot of coins. 

I don't collect Rooses but here are a few useful links about them and on grading. I'm sure there is a ton more out there if you do some searching.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/grading-roosevelt-dimes/

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6812/learn-grading-dimes/

https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Roosevelt/Grades

https://coinauctionshelp.com/howtograde_rooseveltdimes.html

Edited January 19 by Fenntucky Mike
Words

[JKK]

On 1/19/2024 at 4:47 AM, edhalbrook said:

I don't get what is good about it. A good strike coin I assume. I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins. Trying to figure out what makes a dime good. Or better then good. 

Read the grading standards for Rosies. They will tell you which areas tend to wear first. Those high points, especially toward the middle of the coin, will be the ones that are harder to strike up and might have weaker strikes; they are also the points of wear. Find an AU dime and use magnification, however much you need, simply to study what wear looks like and where it begins. You don't grade with magnification, but you can use it to learn.

[VKurtB]

Understand this: you are under no obligation to follow the current “trend” to highly value toned coins. You can decide for yourself whether you like toning or not, and act accordingly. 

[powermad5000]

I thought I explained some of this in my earlier response, but since I do collect Roosy's (not exclusively) and I have my own demands for them, I can tell you my process for checking them for being better than average specimens. The first thing to keep in mind is the rules of inspecting them are really no different than other coins when it comes to wear, dings, nicks, scratches, etc. So keep in mind those standard rules when you are doing your inspection. Then as with all different series of coins, you would want to focus on those areas of issues specific to Roosevelt Dimes (hair, torch, flame, leaves, etc. - the actual details).

Since I demand a full torch (FT), I start my inspection of them with the torch. There are two sets of horizontal bands, one high on the torch, one low. These typically will wear first or will also be a factor in one that is weakly struck. Just like Mercury dimes, these horizontal bands need to have FULL separation between them. If there is a weak strike, they will blend together without any wear on the coin whatsoever. One hit across either band that causes them to join get no full torch. Obvious wear on the bands that causes them to join in any single spot, no full torch. After checking those horizontal bands, I go to the vertical ribs on the torch. They do not need to be fully crisp, but they do need to be well defined as stated by @Simple Collector. If the dime has a weak strike, these vertical ribs may not be totally visible and may just blend in to the shape of the torch. Then I check the flame on the torch. There should be no wear, and no hits or marks on the flame. There should also be a plainly visible line in the flame as part of the design, HOWEVER, this is not fully visible on all specimens struck in the early years of the series and is taken in consideration when grading. The flame itself is not really a part of the full torch designation but since I am walking you through how I grade these, since I am on the torch, I check the flame.

Once I have established a FT, I immediately go to the obverse and start with the hair on Roosevelt's head. You have to refer to superior specimens frequently to get good at this part. On a weak strike, you won't see all of the details of the hair. I typically try to avoid these weak strikes but they were almost unavoidable in the early 80's when it is known the dies were extremely heavily overused so in those cases don't factor as much in getting a good grade.

Once I determine the hair is fully struck and has no wear, it is critical to check the hair thoroughly for small nicks. These small nicks can hide in the lines of the hair and blend in to the design to become unnoticeable, but a good grader will be able to find them and the grade will go down. If the hair is fully struck and is clear of any scratches or nicks, next I go to the face of Roosevelt.

The cheek, chin and neck will be the next areas that will get nicks and scratches first (as they sit above the fields and mottos). You need a clear, smooth cheek, chin and neck. If I get this far and all the boxes check, I will stay on the obverse and check the rims.

The rims need to not be nicked or chipped. On well struck dimes, the rims on Roosevelts will be strong and basically squared as the design has pretty good rims. Next is checking the lettering and the fields on the obverse.

There should be no hits hiding in the lettering or date and there should be no wear. Typically if the lettering is getting wear, the rims will have worn and the hair surely will be worn, but I just check for anything strange.

Next is the fields on the obverse. To grade high, there simply cannot be ANY marks, nicks, dings, scratches, or chips anywhere in the fields. If you think a tiny mark will slide past a grader, it won't. Dimes are small so the grader doesn't have to look at very much field to find something to ding the coin on.

Now, if the entire obverse has checked all the boxes, then I go back to the reverse. Once back on the reverse, I start with the reverse rim. It should also be free of nicks, or dings.

After the rim, I then check the leaves in the designs on both sides of the torch. There should be a line in the center of each leaf. On specimens with weak strikes, these lines may either also be weak or in some cases not present. Typically if a dime is going to wear, right after the bands in the torch wear, these leaf lines will be the next thing to go. Next, I check the outlines of all the leaves as some of the leaves are sitting on top of other leaves. The full outlines of all the leaves should be present on well struck dimes. If the leaves all look good, since you have already checked the torch and rims, all that is left is the wording and the fields of the reverse.

Next, I check the outer lettering as the motto E PLURIBUS UNUM is generally protected by the rest of the reverse design (it still gets checked though). The letters of ONE DIME are large for the small dime and usually will have a hit or scratch in them. Also be sure to check the two dots (one on each end of ONE DIME). These dots can take a small hit or get a scratch. If all the outer lettering of the reverse passes and is clear of defects, then check the E PLURIBUS UNUM. I have found that a tiny hit can also blend in on those letters if the hit follows the shape of any of them.

IF all the boxes have checked so far to have a full torch, be free of hits, nicks, scrapes, damage, etc., all that is left is the reverse fields. The same rule applies as to the obverse field. There can be NO small hits, dings, scratches. It is important to check the field around the torch as I have found more than once a tiny hit hiding next to the torch and it blends in because it follows the shape of the torch.

And now if you are at this point, and all the boxes check, you will surely have a high end specimen with full torch. The thing at this point though you need to remember, is early dates in the series had issues striking up fully. These should not be discounted as being any less than superior specimens. These factors are considered at the grading table when it is known that even the best ever to grade for that year and mintmark combination that no specimen was 100% fully struck due to these factors present at the mint at the time.  If you look at these early specimens in this post you will note it seems like the hair and torch are weak yet they are superior specimens. But if that same look was on a 1964 when those striking issues had already long been worked out, it would grade in the low end of MS. Hopefully that makes sense to you. 

This is a good 66 strike on a modern obverse. Note how much detail is in the hair versus the 48's here.

 

[EagleRJO]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:47 AM, edhalbrook said:

I don't get what is good about it ... I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins.

Toned coins is a newer trend in what some collectors prefer, along with the latest which is colorized coins, although it's really not my style or it sounds like yours either.  In fact I think some of the recent colorized coins look like they belong in a clown's pocket.  I prefer a bright silver color, or a more dull grey for older worn coins.  Seems more natural or consistent with how coins should look to me, although some may say that is more of an old school viewpoint.

Toned coins like the one posted actually get a grade bump for the "eye appeal" portion of the grade, and some of the bright rainbow toned coins go for outrageous increases in prices as they are generally very unique and it just takes two people who really want a coin for bidding to go through the roof.  It can be a 2x or 3x increase in some cases.