Kerrykz Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I keep going back to the inside of the 0. The last 9 and the G in god and the y on liberty... Yea there's a lot of wear and circulation flattening. But it def has some looks of a ddo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 On 1/1/2024 at 8:47 PM, Kerrykz said: But it def has some looks of a ddo NGC VarietyPlus and VarietyVista both list the same two varieties, neither of which match your description. Are you sure this is "def"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 It def does not. JT2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 It "def" doesn't match known DDOs for that cent, and in fact I don’t see any doubling at all. Let me guess, you saw a vid on the 1909 VBD cent DDO having some value and figured you could just pull one out of a change pile. JT2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrykz Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 Funny I remember posting this in newbie questions.... The bottom serif on the g and top right of the y just kept catching my eye. And impressively condescending eagle.. but when ya find pennies like this cleaning out the dryer lint trap...ya just hope one is from that hot tiktok trend of coin collecting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) There is no doubling on your coin, just wear and contact, and there is usually only one place someone can get info that completely misleads them like that. My comments are directed more to those who perpetrate the disinformation. You may want to start over learning about doubling at the following site, which also has listings with photos and markers for known doubled dies including those for your coin. https://doubleddie.com/ Edited January 2 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 On 1/2/2024 at 1:07 AM, Kerrykz said: Funny I remember posting this in newbie questions.... The bottom serif on the g and top right of the y just kept catching my eye. And impressively condescending eagle.. but when ya find pennies like this cleaning out the dryer lint trap...ya just hope one is from that hot tiktok trend of coin collecting The best way to accumulate a great many false hopes and misperceptions is to watch online videos on coin collecting. They've got everyone convinced that they're going to find Rare Mint Errors in their pockets. That group then comes here to announce to us that they have a Rare Mint Error--and to ask our opinions, demand our validation, or some level of civility in between. We tirelessly tell several a day that no, they can't retire off that parking lot coin or dryer coin. If you are seriously interested in coins, however, you can hang out here and learn a lot. Start off by assuming that anything you found on videos is until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 I will actually explain my response to you as you are a proclaimed newbie as it seems you may have taken some offense to my response. If so, that was not the intent. Note, I only quoted one part of your opening comments in your topic. I have a slightly different response than typical when any OP posts a coin and lays a claim outright as to what it is. I immediately think then if you already know what you are seeing then why are you posting it. Words like : for sure, definitely, has errors, is an error, was told by Grandpa Joe it is so it is, positive it is, etc. are triggers for me to just ask the person if they really are sure. It is basically a hint hint, take another look response. As you pointed out specific areas to look, I just am not seeing whatever it is that you are seeing. Maybe it would be more evident with the coin in hand which I do not have but you do. When it comes to minute details on a coin, a photo can only go so far, and the coin is needed in hand to determine some features. What I will tell you from experience, though, when it comes to DDO's, if the photos do not reveal the condition, it most likely is some kind of mechanical doubling or die erosion/deterioration doubling or plating issue and adds no premium to the coin. When looking at varieties on VarietyPlus, Variety Vista, or doubledie.com, you can see the features and die markers in the photos to confirm such features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrykz Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 Okay. I did not see some internet video that caused me to start seeing millions of imaginary dollars in my pocket. I actually became a collector on accident. Lolol. My ex father in law is the culprit on that.... And I get the whole everyone thinks they found the magical one view. When I look at this I do see the circulation flattening the abuse. The wear.. and I know pictures can be very hard to decipher. I did look at the know ddos for this yr. And realize they don't match. That's why I didn't list one as what I thought my golden penny to be. But just pointed out what was bothering me.. cause I can't seem to stop going back to it. I am much appreciative of all the help I get. And do not try to be difficult. But here and on other forums. I've noticed a trend more and more of just mean responses. I'm a big girl. Not gonna kill my day... and I get how answering the same questions is annoying af. Lmao. I'm a parent. I get it times 100.. that's why there's newbie forums. To ask the dumb stuff and get help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just your average ordinary everyday circulated cent, no doubling to speak of. Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 We do understand, I roll hunt for coins all the time. I find that circulation can change the coin a lot over the years. The metal moves around and changes the look. The devices on your coin have been changed and so it may look like doubling to you, but the coin does not match any of the markers of other discoveries. With a coin this old you have to look for all the markers available and I do not see them. Sorry, I always say Keep up the hunt if you love it like I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 115 years of life has the tendency to show a ding or two. My standards are low, but I think a decent looking 1909 VDB is nice enough on its own merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 @Kerrykz I see what you are seeing on the G and the Y, yes at first blush it could look like a form of a DDO. But well worn coins can trick you and I think that is what is going on here. What I see is a coin that when struck had some mechanical doubling in the areas you see, however, after many years of wear and tear in commerce the primary lettering has worn down to the level of the mechanical doubling which is tricking you into seeing a DDO. When a die is created that has a true DDO or DDR the die is rotated slightly between the strikes that create the die resulting in the double image. But the die is not in multiple pieces so it can only rotate one direction, notice that what you see as doubling on the letter G is on the viewers right. But the area you circled on the letter Y of Liberty is on the viewers left, the two supposed rotations do not match. This is simple mechanical doubling which over time has worn down so that the primary lettering and the mechanical now appear to be on the same level. We tell everyone not to believe everything they read on the web, that is just as true here as we do, on very rare occasions, get it wrong. I suggest that you post this on the CONNECA forum for a review and answer there, those are that guys that would attribute a new variety or DDO. I am certain that they will see what I see but it never hurts to have another opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 On 1/3/2024 at 3:51 AM, Kerrykz said: ... just pointed out what was bothering me.. cause I can't seem to stop going back to it. From your last post with the circled areas I think what may be the issue is you are comparing what is on your copper 1909 (P) cent to coins that have little wear, and therefore it looks different or wider. But there is nothing unusual about that. Copper is a soft metal and over time will tend to get mashed down and widen from being in circulation. If you go to CoinFacts and look at images of similar worn cents you will see there is nothing unusual about your coin. For example see the attached comparison of the "GO" from the obverse of your coin (left) and that same area on a significantly worn 1909 cent that had been in circulation from CoinFacts (right), and therefore has similarly widened some of the letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I am very new to coin collecting and take my response for what it is, a person that is new to collecting like you. And doesn’t know much. I too am studying old Pennie’s and I see the pics of die doubles and markers. To my uneducated view it feels that all old coins are unique in their own way and they match up to the die that made them. If I could collect all 2009 Pennys and put them into buckets based on their differences then I would “hold all the coins” lol. Collecting is like hunting, they call it hunting and not shooting. You can’t pull all coins out of circulation and put them in books based on each die! But then how would I get change for my Big Mac! So it seems to my uneducated self that die varieties are neat but it is based on the most interesting ones and ones that people want to collect or the ones that are “the choose. Ones”. I’m probably wrong but that is my view at the moment from studying Morgan’s and other pocket change. I’ll be the first to admit I have a lot more to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Hello. I have been collecting rare coins and studying numismatics for 30 years. I would just like to say when searching for DDOs, DDRs, RPMs and errors the variety or error must be visible with the naked eye or at the very least visible with only 5x magnification to be considered a valuable or marketable coin. Microscopes are not generally used to discover these coins. IMO it is a waste of time to do this. Under high magnification many strange things can appear on coins. High magnification is generally used to determine die types on older worn coins among other select numismatic uses but not usually to look for errors or doubling. IMO your coin is not a DDO or DDR it is just a normal circulated coin with damage. If a coin exhibits an error or DDO DDR that can be seen with the naked eye then a microscope can be used to verify and document the coin for future reference and authentication. Cheers and happy hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/4/2024 at 8:59 AM, Mike Meenderink said: Microscopes are not generally used to discover these coins. Agreed times 1,000. Where are people getting the idea to buy these microscopes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Would it be fair to say… even if you did manage to find a doubling…. It is necessary to have a version in MS65 or above to verify / document any markers needed to reproduce the results? I can’t imagine that someone with a reputation in nematics ( did I spell that right) would risk their reputation on trying to authenticate a new doubling without either a mass collection of average coins in that state or maybe one or two pristine examples. With fakes being made it is hard enough I’m sure just to authenticate the documented ones. With all the (noise) of nicks, scratches, dings, wear, mechanical issues, from a below MS version would make it super hard I’m sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Die markers (die cracks, die gouges, die scratches, etc.) would be present on all coins of that variety regardless of wear, until wear completely obliterates those marker features, as all the coins struck from those sets of dies would have those features. I cannot say for certain as to how those who specialize in variety attribution determine that a coin is a new variety. I will say, however, a single coin is never going to establish any new variety. There has to be many specimens of such said variety to establish die markers in the first place. I would think the coins do not have to be pristine thinking of certain large and half cent and early dollars and early half dollar varieties where there are very few if any remaining high grade specimens to begin with. I am not an expert in variety attribution so someone else could probably shed more light on the subject, but I think I am at least on track with my limited comments here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/4/2024 at 3:08 PM, Rob75B11 said: Would it be fair to say… even if you did manage to find a doubling…. It is necessary to have a version in MS65 or above to verify / document any markers needed to reproduce the results? It wouldn't have to be MS 65 or any mint state grade, but it would have to have sufficient detail to identify the variety clearly. The coin that is the subject of this topic is worn down to barely Fine condition and has some surface damage. It is not possible to tell for sure whether it was struck from a doubled die with a narrow "spread" between the images and, accordingly, can't be attributed as such. If you really can't see the doubling that makes it interesting, why does it matter anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/4/2024 at 1:11 PM, powermad5000 said: I will say, however, a single coin is never going to establish any new variety. Sorry Powermad but almost every variety known to man started with one coin. There have been several newly attributed CONECA varieties recently as well as in the past. These coins are attributed at CONECA by a panel of 3 experts who decide if the coin is in fact a new die variety or previously unknown variety. They then would list it as an attributed variety. TPGs may or may not recognize all variety listings at CONECA or other coin attribution organizations but if it is a new variety or error it can be a just one coin discovery. Kerrykz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) I will hold to my opinion that a single coin would be considered an error as each error coin is unique, and that a variety implies there are many coins with the same conditions found on each coin of the established variety. Edited January 7 by powermad5000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrykz Posted January 7 Author Share Posted January 7 Just on my own reason. I'm blind as a bat... Lol if I want to make out the basics of the coins features I need magnification. 🤓 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 On 1/7/2024 at 8:59 AM, Kerrykz said: Just on my own reason. I'm blind as a bat... Lol if I want to make out the basics of the coins features I need magnification. 🤓 Just because some people scorn microscopes (and love to heap derision upon them and those who use them) doesn't mean that their guidance comes from Mt. Sinai on graven stone tablets. We do not grade with magnification, as a general rule, except at very high grade levels that most people never see on any coin that is not very modern. However, to understand damage or errors, magnification can be helpful. It's especially helpful with detection of cleaning and determination of cleaning methods and severity. Most of the time that means a loupe or a head-worn magnifier, or a lamp with a big lens and a collapsible arm. For spotting repunched mint marks, for example, a microscope can be quite helpful; same for forensics such as described with cleaning. If the lower forms of mag do not help you, then it's perfectly okay to use more powerful mag--but remember that if we can't see a mark with the naked eye, we don't consider it a grading factor. For example, take a look at virtually every coin properly posted in this forum. How many of them are blown up to the size of coffee coasters on your screen? All of them. That's magnification, and it's helpful enough that everyone does it in order to assess some specific situations. What would everyone say if someone posted the coins so they would appear original size on the screen? Even if they were correctly cropped, everyone would admonish the poster to blow them up. That simple fact highlights the value of blown-up views. Just bear in mind the limits of magnification, especially from a grading standpoint. Kerrykz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
