What's your upper limit for buying Raw? 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

If you have purchased coins from a Mint, whether foreign or domestic, you have a reasonable expectation of receiving an authentic product from a legitimate concern.  This goes for buying goods second-hand housed in Original Government Packaging, as well. If you are buying bullion, transacting business with an authorized dealer would be strongly advised.

We have members who insist on buying Raw coins, in-person and in-hand.  For various [excellent] reasons, they eschew encapsulations and similar contraptions.  This Topic is more particularly, but not exclusively, addressed to them.  In keeping with z's maxim which states no one is obligated to respond to any query and, indeed, has the right to remain silent, feel free to respond accordingly.  How much money would you be comfortable parting with to execute the acquisition of a coin you have been given sufficient time to examine under suitable lighting?

[RWB]

Depends on what is being offered.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

If you have purchased coins from a Mint, whether foreign or domestic, you have a reasonable expectation of receiving an authentic product from a legitimate concern.  This goes for buying goods second-hand housed in Original Government Packaging, as well.

Hold the phone.  You can buy just about any modern mint packaging, which a coin is not permanently sealed within, online without the coin and one could put whatever they want in empty packaging.  Now purchasing them second-hand from reputable dealers is another story.

On 11/19/2023 at 8:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[1] We have members who insist on buying Raw coins, in-person and in-hand.

[2] For various [excellent] reasons, they eschew encapsulations and similar contraptions.

I would fall into the first category except for very valuable non-bullion coins or internet purchases with an unconditional return option allowing an in-hand examination to make a final decision.

I would also fall into the second category if you are talking about TPG coin coffins, unless you mean put the raw coins in protective capsules or aftermarket slab holders myself to protect them which I agree with.

Now what does that have to do with the price of tea in China, or what I would pay for a particular raw coin?

Edited November 20, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:04 PM, EagleRJO said:

Now what does that have to do with the price of tea in China, or what I would pay for a particular raw coin?

Note:  There are two big No-No's on the Forum: feral cats (maybe all cats) and any mention of China. 

Now, where was I?... the best way I can answer your question is by illustrating my own dilemma.  Though my West coast set registry has been deemed the best in F20FrGR's, it is not the best possible, nor will it ever be due to unavailability. Every coin added on to any registry must be certified. The difference in price between an MS-66 and an MS-67 is roughly $1,000. I have a number of MS-67's, and believe I am intimately familiar with their features. I also have a number of MS-66's to compare them with. I tried cross-grading, and lost. Raw? Can't. Too much at stake. Plus, membership is a pre-requisite before a submission can be made.

Obviously, this would not be a concern to the average hobbyist but there is no telling where one's inclinations may take him. While I cannot speak for others, it is my considered belief it is highly unlikely an MS-67 graded piece of essentially bullion can be acquired raw from a dealer in such wares and seller's I have contacted are disinclined to commit themselves to what a coin's ultimate grade might be. My personal feeling is it's all been gone thru and cherry-picked.  That's probably why AMPEX continues to advertise such a coin they apparently discovered and submitted discreetly marked SOLD at the bottom of the ad.

To answer your question, where a high grade is the major determinant of price, I have no choice but to abandon the hunting and gathering approach of my colleagues and yield to certified examples. Make sense?

[VKurtB]

I have no upper limit, other than my budget, on how high valued a coin I will buy raw. I have looked longingly at several five-figure coins in central Pennsylvania coin auctions that were 100% raw. Two that come to mind were a MS 1856 Flying Eagle cent, and a MS 1916-D dime. Both were authentic but neither got to their reserve price. The dime was THE FINEST 1916-D dime I’ve ever personally seen, in or out of a slab. 
 

I bid on neither because I left my $10,000+ in my other pants. 

[powermad5000]

It depends on what I am buying raw. And I will surely be giving it a very close in hand examination if it is a high end specimen. I don't think I would buy a high end coin raw over the internet. Only at a show or from a dealer where I can inspect it in hand raw. I would not want to have to send such high end coin back to the seller if I decided not to keep it after an in hand inspection even with a return policy (internet) and then possibly get blamed for damage to such said high end coin and have a net resulting problem with the seller.

In your case, where you are looking for basically the top of the top, I think you would need to go certified and not take a chance at raw UNLESS you were at a show or dealer counter and could do your own examination and only buy when you know what you know best about them.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:20 PM, Henri Charriere said:

... where a high grade is the major determinant of price, I have no choice but to abandon the hunting and gathering approach of my colleagues and yield to certified examples

I understand the delimea, but either continuing your sesrch for a high grade raw Rooster at a lower MS price or going the certified route seems like the only logical options.  This is given the financial risk of a raw Rooster not grading out if a seller is not willing to stand behind or share risk associated with a price point they are demanding for a raw coin.

I still think that there are raw examples of various coins which may be of interest in collections that have not been picked through yet.  In some cases I have settled for slabbed coins due to various factors.  And I don't believe anyone would think less of your Rooster collection if they were not all raw coins you submitted.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I have no upper limit, other than my budget, on how high valued a coin I will buy raw. I have looked longingly at several five-figure coins in central Pennsylvania coin auctions that were 100% raw. Two that come to mind were a MS 1856 Flying Eagle cent, and a MS 1916-D dime. Both were authentic but neither got to their reserve price. The dime was THE FINEST 1916-D dime I’ve ever personally seen, in or out of a slab. 
 

I bid on neither because I left my $10,000+ in my other pants. 

I would have assumed, sure as that burning mine fire in Centralia, you'd've been able to walk into any venue in PA and acquire what your heart desires solely on the strength of your reputation and good looks or, in the alternative, affect your best Clifton Webb impersonation, tap your walking stick on the auctioneer's shoulder, and demand to know:  "See here, my good man!  Don't you know who I am?"  

[BillJones]

My upper limit on raw items is much lower for U.S. coins than it is for foreign coins, tokens and medals. The reason is that certification is so engrained in the U.S. coin market. If the coin is not slabbed, you won't get the best price for it. 

I really dislike certified medals. The trouble is the slabs are so big that storing them is a problem. A valuable medal takes up a lot of space in safe deposit box if it is slabbed. You also can't enjoy the piece as well. 

NGC does a wonderful with grading imperial Roman coins. Still I prefer the coins raw. I can handle the pieces, and I can take better photographs. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:05 AM, Henri Charriere said:

I would have assumed, sure as that burning mine fire in Centralia, you'd've been able to walk into any venue in PA and acquire what your heart desires solely on the strength of your reputation and good looks or, in the alternative, affect your best Clifton Webb impersonation, tap your walking stick on the auctioneer's shoulder, and demand to know:  "See here, my good man!  Don't you know who I am?"  

When at a Pennsylvania auction, I tend to try to shield my identity and if there are pieces I especially want, I sit in the back and use very discreet bidding motions. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/19/2023 at 10:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I have no upper limit, other than my budget, on how high valued a coin I will buy raw. I have looked longingly at several five-figure coins in central Pennsylvania coin auctions that were 100% raw. Two that come to mind were a MS 1856 Flying Eagle cent, and a MS 1916-D dime. Both were authentic but neither got to their reserve price. The dime was THE FINEST 1916-D dime I’ve ever personally seen, in or out of a slab. 
 

I bid on neither because I left my $10,000+ in my other pants. 

FWIW:  One of the first 1856 Flying Eagle Cents made available to the public in nearly 20 years, a [4-ltr word]-certified MS-66, from the Blay collection, was auctioned off a few days ago for $343,125. Its Cert # 81467176.  If you can access it, it's definitely worth a look. The surfaces of both sides appear to be pristine clean.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Add word.

[Conder101]

I'm with Kurt, my upper limit is my budget.  So far the highest I've gone has been $6,000. (also the most expensive coin I have purchased)

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/23/2023 at 5:40 AM, Conder101 said:

I'm with Kurt, my upper limit is my budget.  So far the highest I've gone has been $6,000. (also the most expensive coin I have purchased)

I see.  Would it be safe to say that had you been afflicted with Set Registry Syndrome, for which there is presently no known cure short of compilation of a superlative Set to completion, that alone would be sufficient to alter, if not curb, your spending pattern?  Or have you acquired the skill set required to distinguish the infinitesimal differences among the highest Mint State grades?

[Conder101]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:08 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Would it be safe to say that had you been afflicted with Set Registry Syndrome,

No because for set registries you have to have slabbed coins and I am buying raw coins.  It's just that in the series I collect they often don't come cheap, even in low grade.

[Mike Meenderink]

My coin collecting raw purchases are mostly done with an eye toward a coin being graded or at the very least in a gradable condition with no issues. I have of course a limit to my ability to purchase coins based on my financial means at any given time. That being said I am a coin submittor as in I buy raw coins and actively regularly have them graded by both NGC and PCGS. With this in mind what I do as well as many others is speculate on the actual grade of the coin within a reasonable educated perspective. The limit to what I would spend on a coin depends on my confidence in my own grade speculation. If a coin meets certain criteria, spellbinds me or buys me before I can buy it generally for me those are big winners. I trust my experience and education and have let Jesus take the wheel. 90% success 10% failure 100% FUN

Edited November 24, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Newenglandrarities]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:31 AM, BillJones said:

My upper limit on raw items is much lower for U.S. coins than it is for foreign coins, tokens and medals. The reason is that certification is so engrained in the U.S. coin market. If the coin is not slabbed, you won't get the best price for it. 

I really dislike certified medals. The trouble is the slabs are so big that storing them is a problem. A valuable medal takes up a lot of space in safe deposit box if it is slabbed. You also can't enjoy the piece as well. 

NGC does a wonderful with grading imperial Roman coins. Still I prefer the coins raw. I can handle the pieces, and I can take better photographs. 

Very good take Bill.  I was going to comment as a specialist in early American coins, tokens, medals etc. a lot of what I buy is raw already.  So I don’t really have a “limit” in that regard, though often there are 5 and even 6 figure coins of this nature totally raw.  Matter fact, many of the collectors buy a coin holdered, and break it out right away to keep it raw in their collection.  Though with federal coinage today, as Bill said, my limit would be lower unless viewing in hand!

[VKurtB]

I have next to no interest in Registry Sets. I have one obscure British set I am working on. And those coins are all cheap. The trick isn’t finding the coins, it’s finding them nice enough.  If it were a large set, the grading fees would be an impediment. But the set contains six (6) coins.

Edited November 26, 2023 by VKurtB

[cobymordet]

On 11/25/2023 at 9:48 PM, VKurtB said:

I have one obscure British set I am working on. And those coins are all cheap.

Out of curiosity, VKurtB, what set would that be?

[VKurtB]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:00 AM, cobymordet said:

Out of curiosity, VKurtB, what set would that be?

Pre-decimal crowns of George VI and Elizabeth II.

[GoldFinger1969]

Probably a few hundred dollars for a non-PM coin or a silver coin....for a more expensive coin, it would have to be bullion (gold) value.

Would love to get an MCMVII Hight Relief at some point but unless I am light-years better as a grader with tons more familiarity with all the ins-and-outs of the HR's....and can trace the provenance of the coin and/or know the seller/dealer/collector....I'd rather pay MORE via a certified/TPG coin to make sure I am buying legit.

If I were to buy a common or semi-scarce RAW Saint and pay 25-50% over gold bullion for it...and I guess wrong on the grade or it's been altered/cleaned....bullion is my floor value (BTW, I've never bought one raw).  But on a condition rarity or MCMVII Hight Relief coin where I am paying MULTIPLES of the gold price.....my downside could be thousands or even high-4 or low-5 figures.  Unless I have recently won MegaMillions, something I would probably not want to risk. 

For silver coins (moderns or Morgan SDs) I have less downside in absolute dollars unless I buy a very valuable MSD.  I've paid a huge multiple of silver's price for MSDs but all were TPG graded/certified.  Silver was $20-$30 and I paid $400-$750 for a few of my pricier MSDs.  For modern's, mostly $125-$250 for 1, 2, or 5-ounce silver coins.  

So with silver, unless you buy a really pricey MSD, your absolute $$$ at risk (if not the % downside) is more limited than I am likely to see with gold coins (Saints or Liberty's).

Of course, small denomination coins with minimal or no PM value can sell for a huge premium to their FV and could present a huge risk if you buy raw.... unless you really know the series.  I could be wrong, but I see fewer people saying they bought a pricey small denomination post-1932 coin raw than classic gold or silver coins.