Luxembourg Commemorative Medal - how to find the person who wants it 1 1

[hr1704]

I inherited this from my father-in-law.  He had a lot of coins that I've researched but I couldn't find much information on this one.

NGC rating

This link is the most comprehensive information I could find about it.  For some reason NGC didn't label it right even though I have them a KM #.

My question is: What should I do with it?  It seems to be the only gold version of this that exists (the 37mm 5 franc, not to be confused with the 26mm 40 franc).  Somebody somewhere probably wants it.  The local coin dealers are only willing to pay melt price for it because they don't know what to do with it either.  Where should I post to get it in front of the right person?

Edited October 4, 2023 by hr1704
add pictures

[powermad5000]

Coins (or medals) you are trying to sell should be posted in the Coin Marketplace forum. Please follow the guidelines at the open of the forum to a T.

[EagleRJO]

Why are you thinking it's worth more than melt?  Particularly for a commemorative gold medal from another country, which doesn't even show any sold on typical auction sites or ebay.

[hr1704]

@EagleRJO  You might have answered the real question.  Does nobody want this coin?   Maybe commemorative medals from other countries are worthless, I don't know. I just want to get it to someone who actually wants it instead of having the only known gold variant melted.  I see that silver and bronze versions of this have sold on ebay and heritage.

If everyone thinks it's just melt, then so be it.

Edited October 4, 2023 by hr1704
spelling

[EagleRJO]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:54 AM, hr1704 said:

I see that silver and bronze versions of this have sold on ebay and heritage

What was the premium above melt for say the silver ones?  There may be a curiosity factor for unusual items if not that much, but that may help answer your question.

[cobymordet]

LOL - You might try Grand Duke Henri, he runs Luxembourg. When you pop on over, don't forget your visa, and you can visit France and Germany within an hour (really tiny country, or city, or castle. . ).  Just out of curiosity, how did you come to own this $2,500+ melt value essay of a coin?

[cobymordet]

oops, addendum, apologies on not knowing how to read.  good night.

[Fenntucky Mike]

I would consign this to an auction house, Heritage or Stack's Bowers in the states, or maybe Künker or Katz in Europe. The copper version has sold for many times its metal value, I would expect the gold version to also have a value above melt. An auction house would also be able to provide an estimate, but they may have a minimum dollar amount that you would need to meet in order to be accepted for consignment so you might have to include a few more items to hit the threshold. I have a feeling that this could be worth more than you think, but don't know for sure. If I have time I'll do some more digging. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[hr1704]

Thanks for the useful information @Fenntucky Mike.  I didn't know about Künker or Katz, so I'll look into those.  I don't understand Ebay's search system - I have seen the previously sold silver and other variants before but maybe the older ones don't show up anymore.  I think they went for well over the melt price of silver.

I don't know why NGC labeled it the way they did.  I gave them a KM# that came with it.  They have others like that were labeled 5 francs, Essai, Princess Ermesinde.  How could I get them to fix that?

[cobymordet]

 

On 10/4/2023 at 12:17 PM, hr1704 said:

I don't know why NGC labeled it the way they did.  I gave them a KM# that came with it.  They have others like that were labeled 5 francs, Essai, Princess Ermesinde.  How could I get them to fix that?

HR1704, it sounds like you submitted the coin to be graded? Is the weight (42g) accurate and besides the KM# what other information came with the coin?  is the size 37mm or 26mm?

[hr1704]

The weight is accurate, the size is 37mm.  I expected things like "5 francs", "Princess Ermesinde", "KM-M14b", like some of the others like it that are on ebay right now.  I also expected it would show up in the NGC cencus but it doesn't.
https://www.ngccoin.com/census/world/luxembourg/sc-202/5f/

Things that someone who really wants the coin can search on and find.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:43 PM, hr1704 said:

I expected things like "5 francs", "Princess Ermesinde", "KM-M14b", like some of the others like it that are on ebay right now.  I also expected it would show up in the NGC cencus but it doesn't.
https://www.ngccoin.com/census/world/luxembourg/sc-202/5f/

You linked a 5 Franc (5F) currency coin, while you have a medal that does not designate or represent a specific currency amount.  NGC just includes enough info on labels to uniquely identify a coin or medal, which doesn't usually include the KM number or other info you may want to add to any for sale listing.

[cobymordet]

This is a conundrum and I am intrigued.  Just for S&G, I will email the Luxembourg and Belgium Mints in an effort to obtain detailed information of your coin in an effort to understand it.  Would you be OK with that HR1704?  I doubt very seriously that anything will come of it, but it is worth a shot. . . a very long shot. . .

[hr1704]

@cobymordet Please do. I never thought that was an option.

@EagleRJO I don't understand.  NGC labeled other coins that looked exactly like it as 5 francs.  Silver, bronze and copper.  None of them said 5 francs on the coin but had it on the label.  Same with KM numbers.  Why would some get these designations but others not?

[EagleRJO]

It may be that they used the circulation coin as the design for a gold medal but it's not a 5F coin.  You don't really need extra info on a label when you can just describe it in a listing.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:19 AM, hr1704 said:

I don't understand.  NGC labeled other coins that looked exactly like it as 5 francs.  Silver, bronze and copper.  None of them said 5 francs on the coin but had it on the label.  Same with KM numbers.  Why would some get these designations but others not?

Is there any edge lettering? Is the edge reeded or smooth? My guess is that there is currently no KM# for this piece and a new one was not assigned, seems a little odd since KM#'s exists for the other essais/medals/tokens and they were added to the labels. The design is the same across all the denominations so I'm guessing that the "face value" is determined by size and composition, unless there is something on the edge but my guess is that there is either nothing or " * INTERNATIONAL BANK IN LUXEMBOURG" and not a denomination. It appears that these were commissioned by the Bank and produced by the Royal Mint of Belgium on the occasion of Luxembourg's millennium in 1963. It's a great looking piece, I like it!

Edited October 5, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Correction

[cobymordet]

From Numista site:

I did send the email to both Banks and as soon as I hear back, I will post info.  Regarding the monetary designations listed for these medals, I think they are a misnomer.  Considering the coins are commemorative medals and not legal tender, monetary values would seem to be a moot point.  It would be odd that a silver coin would be 250 francs and a gold coin only 40 francs.  ...Funny funny French...

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:26 AM, cobymordet said:

It would be odd that a silver coin would be 250 francs and a gold coin only 40 francs.  ...Funny funny French

The Lux 40F Gold coin is 12.9g and 21mm in diameter.  As noted the op posted a commerative gold medal that is not a circulated coin designating a specific currency amount, and it seems the NGC label is correct and complete.

Yes, silly French. 😜 

Edited October 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:26 AM, cobymordet said:

I did send the email to both Banks and as soon as I hear back, I will post info.  Regarding the monetary designations listed for these medals, I think they are a misnomer.  Considering the coins are commemorative medals and not legal tender, monetary values would seem to be a moot point.  It would be odd that a silver coin would be 250 francs and a gold coin only 40 francs.  ...Funny funny French...

On 10/5/2023 at 12:29 PM, EagleRJO said:

The Lux 40F Gold coin is 12.9g and 21mm in diameter.  As noted you have a commerative gold medal that is not a circulated coin designating a specific currency amount, and it seems the NGC label is correct and complete.

Yes, silly French. 😜 

Think of these as Dan Carresque creations, they have a denomination but are not redeemable for one reason or another, and the denominations may not make sense based on composition but it doesn't matter because they are not legal tender, they are fantasy pieces. There were several types produce in this series, of varying compositions and sizes, all are very collectable from what I've seen with miniscule mintages.

Krause use to publish a catalog called "Unusual World Coins" which lists quasi-official, non-governmental issues like this. The piece in the OP falls in this series and should have a KM-X# matching the others, I believe anyway. I don't have that catalog in front of me, but I'll try to find it tonight. If NGC can label the others in the series with KM-X#'s then I would have expected the piece in the OP to be treated similarly, unless it was never listed in Krause or maybe it was omitted on accident, or for some other reason. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[hr1704]

Yes, it does have lettering on the edge: "BANQUE INTERNATIONAL A LUXEMBOURG", and it's a smooth edge.  It's exactly like the 37mm versions at this link at Numista:
37mm 5 franc

 I think the quote from @cobymordet is from the 26mm at Numista:
26mm 40 franc

When I submitted it to NGC (first time, I'm a newbie) I just put country:Luxembourg, denomination:5 francs, mintmark: KM#M14b.
They obviously looked up something to find it was a "millennium 42g".  I sent a message to NGC to ask why it wasn't labeled like the others they graded that were the same... and can they change it.  I got what appeared to be a canned response that only said: Complete a new submission form and hand write “Mechanical Error”.

Can I expect a change if I go through that process or will they just return it the same without an explanation?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 1:37 PM, hr1704 said:

When I submitted it to NGC (first time, I'm a newbie) I just put country:Luxembourg, denomination:5 francs, mintmark: KM#M14b.

Yeah, that was the wrong KM# but it got them in the neighborhood. 

On 10/5/2023 at 1:37 PM, hr1704 said:

I sent a message to NGC to ask why it wasn't labeled like the others they graded that were the same... and can they change it.  I got what appeared to be a canned response that only said: Complete a new submission form and hand write “Mechanical Error”.

They almost always give vague, incomplete responses over email, very frustrating. I would call NGC, (+1) 855-GRADE10 (855-472-3310), you'll get a more direct answer, but I would take it to mean that they will relabel it. FYI, they use to send a shipping label to return "mechanical errors". 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[hr1704]

Isn't NGC's business and reputation build entirely on rock-solid consistency?  I think that would apply to labeling in addition to grading.  My first experience would tell my their labeling policy is  "whatever".

I understand that they wouldn't explain why the grading wasn't what someone wanted, but should I expect an explanation for their labeling?

Yes, they did offer to send a shipping label to return.  I'll try calling them as you suggest.

What would be the correct KM#?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 3:10 PM, hr1704 said:

Yes, they did offer to send a shipping label to return.  I'll try calling them as you suggest.

What would be the correct KM#?

If they offered to send a shipping label then I'd say you're golden. 

I'm not sure what the KM-X# is but I would expect it to be similar to the one on the holder I posted, KM-XM__, something like that. If I have time and can find my copy of the the catalog of Unusual World Coins I'll see if I can find it. Or maybe someone else will be able to provide it. 

On 10/5/2023 at 3:10 PM, hr1704 said:

Isn't NGC's business and reputation build entirely on rock-solid consistency?  I think that would apply to labeling in addition to grading.  My first experience would tell my their labeling policy is  "whatever".

I understand that they wouldn't explain why the grading wasn't what someone wanted, but should I expect an explanation for their labeling?

Mistakes happen, I wouldn't be to hung up on it, that they are going to make it right for you at no cost speaks to their reputation in itself. There are plenty of "mechanical errors" out there by every TPG, leaving the KM-X# off the label is minor imo, and I wouldn't necessarily say that the label is wrong, just lacking some info that would have been nice to have displayed. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
More Info

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2023 at 1:37 PM, hr1704 said:

Yes, it does have lettering on the edge: "BANQUE INTERNATIONAL A LUXEMBOURG", and it's a smooth edge.  It's exactly like the 37mm versions at this link at Numista: 37mm 5 franc ... I think the quote from @cobymordet is from the 26mm at Numista: 26mm 40 franc

It looks like in 1963 Luxembourg went completely nuts and struck additional coins of various compositions (gold, silver, bronze and copper-nickel) in 5F, 20F, 40F, 100F and 250F denominations, as well as commemorative medals in various sizes and compositions, to celebrate the anniversaries of Luxembourg City.

These included strikes such as a 40F Gold coin (12.9g 21mm X# M3c), a 250F Gold coin (42.4g 37mm X# E71 like the attached), and the 42g Gold medal originally posted with a similar size and weight as the 250F gold coin.

The 42g medal may be X# or KM# MA1b, and Mike may be right that it's assigned an arbitrary value in Francs, even though it's not a circulated coin with a specific value for use in commerce.

This would be similar to the more recent 1-Ounce American Gold Eagle bullion coins which are assigned an apparently meaningless and arbitrary $50 value, which is not how that coin is typically described or listed, in contrast to an earlier date $20 Gold Double Eagle circulation strike with a similar weight and size.

I agree not having a KM# on the label is minor as I really can't see people looking for a label with that, and it can always be included in a listing description if verified.

And I think having some arbitrary value less than 250F may detract from the piece.  Would you rather have a 1963 5 Francs Gold medal or 1963 250 Francs Gold coin, even though they may be about the same size and weight?

Edited October 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/5/2023 at 3:10 PM, hr1704 said:

What would be the correct KM#?

I believe it is KM-XMA1b

[hr1704]

Yes, I've had local coin dealers show me this page from a thick book.  It has both KM#M14b and X#MA1b.  Why are there 2 #s and which is preferred? 

I guess the reason I'm so hung up on this is:

1) I envision someone who really-really wants this to complete their collection monitors the NGC census here waiting to see if something new comes in.  This person will never find my coin.
2) I try to post it on ebay or some other auction house, but people will think it's something different or think it's a scam or something else is wrong with it because it's not labeled like all the others.

I'll accept that I'm overreacting but I'm still going to try to get an explanation or change from NGC.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2023 at 6:57 PM, hr1704 said:

I've had local coin dealers show me this page from a thick book.  It has both KM#M14b and X#MA1b.  Why are there 2 #s and which is preferred?

From the info Mike posted it would be X# MA1b, as it's "Prev[iously] KM# M14b".

From Mike's info I found the following at the NGC World Coin Price Guide for an X# MA1b Luxembourg 41.9g Gold 5 Francs Medal.  It's valued at $2,000 for MS grade, which would be around melt with the seller/buyer fees to auction the piece subtracted.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/luxembourg-5-francs-x-ma1b-1963-cuid-1131340-duid-1442830

P.S.  It does look like the NGC label info is correct, even if it is missing a X# or KM#.  And it's not a circulated coin so they may not add the 5 Francs anyway, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Edited October 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[hr1704]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:25 PM, EagleRJO said:

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/luxembourg-5-francs-x-ma1b-1963-cuid-1131340-duid-1442830

Wow, that's interesting.  I've never seen that link before.  How did you find it?  Does that mean that there is another gold version of this that exists that was graded MS63 and sold somewhere for $2000?  Why is it not in the NGC census?  It seems to confirm that NGC recognizes this as a 5 franc coin with KM#M14b.

Edited October 6, 2023 by hr1704

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:37 PM, hr1704 said:

How did you find it?

I went to the NGC World Coin Price Guide page at the following link and typed in "1963 Luxembourg 5 Francs" from the info Mike posted.  It lists 3 coins/medals in various compositions, including the subject 42g [41.9g] Gold medal.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/

And it may just be an average MS grade listed for value as all 3 compositions are valued only at MS63, and it looks like your MS65 is the only one listed in the census for that gold medal.

Edited October 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[hr1704]

Yes, I see them now.  The silver, bronze and gold.  All have a single MS63 listed.  We know the silver and bronze have sold for well over the prices listed there.  Maybe they are not actual realized sales and just a value assigned by someone.