1917 Wheat Penny - Is this Is this class V doubling or pivoted hub doubling? 1 1

[Erin33]

Is this class V doubling or pivoted hub doubling. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Erin33

[Greenstang]

Don’t think so, it looks more like a worn cent.

[EagleRJO]

I don't see any doubling, so maybe you could point out where you see that.  In any event it doesn't match the known doubled die for a 1917 cent shown at the following links.  And I think the terms used for doubling are the same thing.

http://doubleddie.com/288601.html

https://www.lincolncentresource.com/doubledies/1917ddo1.html

[Coinbuf]

It is possible that you have a legit example of the 1917 DDO.   It is something that would need to be seen in hand to verify as your coin is so worn, but the 7 in the date does look to match.   But due to the well-worn condition I just cannot tell or say for sure from the photos, this is a coin that could be worth submitting.

[EagleRJO]

I don't see any consistent difference in vertical vs horizontal elements I would expect to see from a doubled die that was worn.  It appears some of the elements have simply been flattened out due to circulation.

[Coinbuf]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:13 PM, EagleRJO said:

I don't see any consistent difference in vertical vs horizontal elements I would expect to see from a doubled die that was worn.  It appears some of the elements have simply been flattened out due to circulation.

Here is the op's photo of the seven in the date, and a comparison of the seven from the photo on Lincolncentresource.   Notice the line at the bottom of the top serf of the seven which shows the separation and the doubling, the op photo has the same line as that shown in the reference photo.   I'm not saying that this is for sure a 17/17 example, or given the amount of wear that it could even be attributed as one, but I think it deserves an in-hand review before being dismissed.

 

[powermad5000]

I think if it were truly the FS-101 1917 DDO, with the amount of wear it has, the lettering would appear "thicker" than normal with the notches blending into the lettering itself. Aside from the date, the doubling is pronounced in the IN GOD WE TRUST motto. I have provided some photos of this from NGC VarietyPlus. I am just trying to factor in the wear in my head as to what it would look like with heavy circulation, as the cent in the photos from NGC is obviously uncirculated. Thinking of this wear, I would think the lettering would appear "thicker" as the doubled images blended together so to speak. I do not think this coin has the characteristics as the lettering appears normal to me, just worn. Out of 246 total 1917 Lincoln Cents NGC has graded, only 1 has been attributed as a DDO. We would also have to take into account that the OP's coin could have had some mechanical doubling to begin with that the wear is giving the appearance that it could be a DDO.

Edited October 3, 2023 by powermad5000

[Mike Meenderink]

Even if this is a DDO its not worth the money to grade it. The wear on the coin makes the error unrecognizable. Collectors would prefer a less circulated example that still shows the die doubling.

[Hoghead515]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:51 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Even if this is a DDO its not worth the money to grade it. The wear on the coin makes the error unrecognizable. Collectors would prefer a less circulated example that still shows the die doubling.

For some reason Ive seen this particular ddo on some pretty rough coins still yet bring quite a bit of money. Not sure the reason why. Havent looked into it. Must be one of the more rare ddo's

[EagleRJO]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:36 AM, powermad5000 said:

I am just trying to factor in the wear in my head as to what it would look like with heavy circulation, as the cent in the photos from NGC is obviously uncirculated.

You can see various grades of a DDO 1917 (P) Cent at CoinFacts, including a VG10 which is probably close to the wear on the op's coin.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1917-1c-ddo-fs-101-bn/images/37673

On 10/3/2023 at 12:31 AM, Coinbuf said:

Here is the op's photo of the seven in the date, and a comparison of the seven from the photo on Lincolncentresource.

The top of the "7" in the date on the op's coin is thicker as you circled, but so in the vertical part.  If it was a DDO just the top would be thicker as shown in the links I posted above.  And I'm not sure if there is a horizontal demarcation line at the top of the "7" or it's just discolored with blurry pics and I expect one to be there.

See the attached comparison to a 1917 DDO, with the op's coin on the left, which to me indicates it's not a DDO as it just appears that the date, as well as other elements, have taken hits while in circulation mashing them down somewhat.  However, I agree the op should look closely at the coin in-hand and compare that to the example DDO indicators.

Edited October 3, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:42 PM, EagleRJO said:

You can see various grades of a DDO 1917 (P) Cent at CoinFacts, including a VG10 which is probably close to the wear on the op's coin.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1917-1c-ddo-fs-101-bn/images/37673

The top of the "7" in the date on the op's coin is thicker as you circled, but so in the vertical part.  If it was a DDO just the top would be thicker as shown in the links I posted above.  And I'm not sure if there is a horizontal demarcation line at the top of the "7" or it's just discolored with blurry pics and I expect one to be there.

See the attached comparison to a 1917 DDO, with the op's coin on the left, which to me indicates it's not a DDO as it just appears that the date, as well as other elements, have taken hits while in circulation mashing them down somewhat.  However, I agree the op should look closely at the coin in-hand and compare that to the example DDO indicators.

 

You seem to have missed altogether what I circled, as I wrote above look at the horizontal line that is visible on the lower part of the seven crossbar, I did not circle the crossbar because it is thick.   That line separates the upper and lower sections of the crossbar and is a strong indication of the DDO as the line bisects the crossbar and the lower section is clearly at or about the same level of the upper portion of the crossbar and is far too wide to be just MD.   The thickness of the vertical section is easily attributed to the level of wear and is not (imo) a concern on such a well-worn coin.

What does give hope for a true DDO is the presence of that line that separates the crossbar, that is the same on the op's coin and all of the images you will see on all the reference sites.   What the op did not provide is adequate photos of the letters of IGWT, this is a coin that should be reviewed in hand and not be dismissed so easily.   Even if we had photos of the IGWT letters, this DDO is not easy to diagnose from photos on a coin with this level of wear.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Hoghead515]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:47 PM, Coinbuf said:

You seem to have missed altogether what I circled, as I wrote above look at the horizontal line that is visible on the lower part of the seven crossbar, I did not circle the crossbar because it is thick.   That line separates the upper and lower sections of the crossbar and is a strong indication of the DDO as the line bisects the crossbar and the lower section is clearly at or about the same level of the upper portion of the crossbar and is far too wide to be just MD.   The thickness of the vertical section is easily attributed to the level of wear and is not (imo) a concern on such a well-worn coin.

What does give hope for a true DDO is the presence of that line that separates the crossbar, that is the same on the op's coin and all of the images you will see on all the reference sites.   What the op did not provide is adequate photos of the letters of IGWT, this is a coin that should be reviewed in hand and not be dismissed so easily.   Even if we had photos of the IGWT letters, this DDO is not easy to diagnose from photos on a coin with this level of wear.

Im seeing it to @Coinbuf. It really looks like it could be one. I agree with you that it needs a closer look. I see exactly what you are describing. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:47 PM, Coinbuf said:

You seem to have missed altogether what I circled, as I wrote above look at the horizontal line that is visible on the lower part of the seven crossbar

No, as mentioned above I do see some indications of a "horizontal demarcation line" at the top, more so on the right side fading off to the left or just at the intersection, and was really using the circled area to show a lack of difference in the widths between what was circled and the rest of the "7".  I'm not sure if it's just a stain or hit on the right giving that appearance.

But I still do not see any consistent difference in vertical vs horizontal elements of the date and lettering noted I would expect to see from a doubled die that was worn, like for example the "7" compared above.  See the CoinFacts link I posted for examples of worn DDO 1917 cents, some of them very worn like the op's coin, for an indication of what I am referring to if it's not clear.

Edited October 3, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   I have been reluctant to comment on this topic for several reasons.

   First of all, the title seems to ask not whether the coin exhibits a doubled die but whether it is "Class V doubling or pivoted hub doubling" as though these were different phenomena, when they are different names for the same type of doubled die. There are eight classes of doubled dies (I-VIII, each with a different name), which as stated in The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Varieties (4th ed. 2001) Vol.1 at xxiii "do not have anything to do with the strength of the doubling, but rather how the particular doubling occurred. (Emphasis in original.)  The descriptions of the eight classes take up 23 pages later in the book (pp. 338-361). In my experience, very few variety collectors really understand the differences between the various classes, and it is usually unimportant. What is important, especially for a new or intermediate collector, is to be able to distinguish a doubled die of any class from other types of (generally worthless) doubling or no doubling at all.

    In this case, the issue is whether this well-worn (Good 6 or so) 1917 Lincoln cent is an example of the FS-101 1917 Lincoln cent doubled die obverse listed in the "Redbook", NGC VarietyPlus, and other standard guides. Notwithstanding the popularity of this variety, it is a relatively minor doubled die in terms of the width of the "spread" and obviousness of the doubling even on higher grade examples. I have seen a number of worn 1917 cents that appeared to have thickening on the date numerals and other elements that could be taken to be an indication of the doubling, but the thickening could have resulted just from wear. There is no clear separation of images on this coin to match with the photos of the diagnostic areas of high-grade examples. The coin may or may not have been struck from the FS-101 dies. In my opinion, the coin is just too worn to attribute. It is uncertain whether any reputable grading service would do so.

   Last March a member posted in the following topic images of an Extremely Fine or so 1917 cent that appeared to me and others to be the doubled die variety, but there was some controversy even about that one.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Sandon
corrected "last year" to "last March"

[Coinbuf]

On 10/3/2023 at 3:46 PM, EagleRJO said:

No, as mentioned above I do see some indications of a "horizontal demarcation line" at the top, more so on the right side fading off to the left or just at the intersection, and was really using the circled area to show a lack of difference in the widths between what was circled and the rest of the "7".  I'm not sure if it's just a stain or hit on the right giving that appearance.

But I still do not see any consistent difference in vertical vs horizontal elements of the date and lettering noted I would expect to see from a doubled die that was worn, like for example the "7" compared above.  See the CoinFacts link I posted for examples of worn DDO 1917 cents, some of them very worn like the op's coin, for an indication of what I am referring to if it's not clear.

I don't need to review a coinfacts link, I've been collecting Lincoln cents for decades and I have seen examples of this DDO in hand.   Looking at photos is great but it is not a replacement for actual eyes on the real thing.   As I said this coin could be an example of this DDO; and I also said it may be too worn to be able to authenticate, but from what I can see it should not be dismissed without an in-hand review.

If you read the thread that Sandon linked above I asked that op for a photo of the "TY" of Liberty, if the op @Erin33 is still reading this thread perhaps he/she can provide a closeup of that on this coin, would go a long way to proving or disproving.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:01 PM, Sandon said:

There is no clear separation of images on this coin to match with the photos of the diagnostic areas of high-grade examples ... In my opinion, the coin is just too worn to attribute

Agreed it's pretty worn to tell for sure.  But there are examples of certified G and VG graded 1917 1C DDO FS-101 coins from CoinFacts.

However, as noted they still have distinct differences between horizontal and vertical elements only at the date and lettering where doubling would be expected, and it would be very unlikely that a coin was only subjected to hits exactly where it would be doubled.  There may also have been other diagnostics visible with the coin in-hand not visible from pics.  I don't see any of these indicators on the op's coin.

I don't think the op's coin is a DDO, but I agree the op really needs to compare the coin in hand to the diagnostics referenced as Coinbuf noted, or perhaps bring it to a local coin shop, to decide if it may be worth holding onto as I also think it's worn to the point of not being worth submitting.

Edited October 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Conder101]

The problem is on the DDO the 1's show strong notching at the bases and the upper end of the curl of the 9 does as well.  The subject coin shows no thrace of that notching and in fact the bases of the 1's appear to be thinner than they should if the notching was just blurred by wear.  I don't see anything that would convince me this is the 1917 DDO.