Specimens Only: Post your SP coins here. 2 2

[Mike Meenderink]

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[RWB]

Funny.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:42 AM, RWB said:

Funny.

What's funny ? Is it the fact you have no SP coins or did you just see your face?

[rrantique]

[RWB]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:23 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

What's funny ? Is it the fact you have no SP coins or did you just see your face?

"SP" or "specimen" is an undefined and meaningless term as used by TPGs and is easily accepted by some. There actually are coins for which such a term might have meaning -- but only if TPGs will present their full and complete data supporting such a designation. See some of the columns in Coin Week for examples..

[zadok]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:48 PM, RWB said:

"SP" or "specimen" is an undefined and meaningless term as used by TPGs and is easily accepted by some. There actually are coins for which such a term might have meaning -- but only if TPGs will present their full and complete data supporting such a designation. See some of the columns in Coin Week for examples..

...totally not true, same old boring story that no one but him that buys into...

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

SP designated coins are an area where I have very limited numismatic knowledge.  In my mind they are "enhanced" business strikes and/or pseudo-proofs, SMS coins, etc.  Generally, I think of these as modern coins, but have seen a few classics bearing the SP designation (wish I had examples).  Can someone educate me on what these coins actually are?  I am not saying this to be inflammatory in anyway - I really don't know.

Edit note - Definition from NGC (but the "would be proof" definition does not help me tremendously.  The TPG "catch all" seems to align more to Roger's definition that this is all TPG driven. More questions than answers for me):

Specimen

From its earliest days, the US Mint has occasionally produced coins that fall short of the definition for actual Proofs yet are clearly superior to the normal currency issues. In past generations, such pieces were routinely described as Proofs by coin dealers and catalogers. Since the 1960s, these would-be Proof coins have gradually become accepted under the term "Specimen," which is abbreviated SP on the NGC certification label. 

 

1878-S Specimen Morgan Dollar, graded NGC SP 64 Click images to enlarge.

 

SP is a catchall that is applied to a variety of finishes that are distinct from the appearance of circulation issues but do not fit any of the Proof categories. Specimen can describe early US coins with bold strikes, very brilliant fields and semi-frosted devices as well as modern US coins that were produced with matte or other unusual finishes.

 

1994-P Nickel, graded NGC SP 70 Click images to enlarge.

 

Recent examples for which the designation SP has been used are the matte finish 1994-P and 1997-P nickels that were specially produced for inclusion in commemorative silver dollar sets.

Edited September 27, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:00 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

SP designated coins are an area where I have very limited numismatic knowledge.  In my mind they are "enhanced" business strikes and/or pseudo-proofs, SMS coins, etc.  Generally, I think of these as modern coins, but have seen a few classics bearing the SP designation (wish I had examples).  Can someone educate me on what these coins actually are?  I am not saying this to be inflammatory in anyway - I really don't know.

From the NGC website:

"SP is a catchall that is applied to a variety of finishes that are distinct from the appearance of circulation issues but do not fit any of the Proof categories. Specimen can describe early US coins with bold strikes, very brilliant fields and semi-frosted devices as well as modern US coins that were produced with matte or other unusual finishes."

I'd would rather coins, like in the OP, be called by the finish or whatever separates them from circulation strikes.

Here is a LINK to the NGC article. 

Some coins with SP designation that were held by mints like Kings Norton in cabinets I can get on board with, as well as what I would typically think of as specimens such as off metal or trial strikes and the like. A somewhat grey area.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:25 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'd would rather coins, like in the OP, be called by the finish or whatever separates them from circulation strikes.

Thanks @Fenntucky Mike.  I think we went and found the article at the same time.  I agree with the above, it would help a neophyte like me to better understand the nuance.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:48 AM, RWB said:

"SP" or "specimen" is an undefined and meaningless term as used by TPGs and is easily accepted by some. There actually are coins for which such a term might have meaning -- but only if TPGs will present their full and complete data supporting such a designation. See some of the columns in Coin Week for examples..

You are the numismatist of the year and you don't know why these are different than a full proof or a business strike coin? Wow. Its simple RWB does it look like a shinny proof? No. Does it have superbly struck proof details? Yes. Then its a matte proof or specimin coin produced iin limited quantities to display a coming mintages business strike details in high relief.  They are made for banks and other numismatic entities as requested. Not silly.

[Henri Charriere]

Gentlemen:  If there is a better time than now to throw kerosene into the fire, I cannot think of any. 

Accordingly, I should like [once again] to direct the attention of the congregation to three related matters...

One, a reminder that all extant examples of the 1913 Liberty Head V-nickels, regardless of provenance, are still being referred to as Specimens (among other things).

Two, overseas, PCGS has graded two 1899 French 20-franc Gold Roosters as "SP-63," which I believe is to be understood as SPlendide, an official French grade encompassing all coins graded the U.S. equivalent of from MS-63 to MS-64.  (Unless an overlooked typo, the Italians use SPL, or SPLendido, inconcongruously, for coins grading from AU-55 to MS-62, and again, seamlessly from MS-63 to MS-64 as reflected by the U.S. equivalents.

There has been an SP-65 graded by PCGS for a French Piedfort Essai, but that designation for a French 20-franc Gold Rooster conforms to no known scale devised by man anywhere on the face of the Earth.

Carry on!

[rrantique]

[Mike Meenderink]

Sometimes SP coins that are encapsulated with the SP designation are included in the PF category. They sometimes can be counted and  included in the PF population of some coins. Not all but many are in thier own specific SP pop type like a PL coin or anything else.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:11 PM, rrantique said:

Spectacular 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Gentlemen:  If there is a better time than now to throw kerosene into the fire, I cannot think of any. 

Accordingly, I should like [once again] to direct the attention of the congregation to three related matters...

One, a reminder that all extant examples of the 1913 Liberty Head V-nickels, regardless of provenance, are still being referred to as Specimens (among other things).

Two, overseas, PCGS has graded two 1899 French 20-franc Gold Roosters as "SP-63," which I believe is to be understood as SPlendide, an official French grade encompassing all coins graded the U.S. equivalent of from MS-63 to MS-64.  (Unless an overlooked typo, the Italians use SPL, or SPLendido, inconcongruously, for coins grading from AU-55 to MS-62, and again, seamlessly from MS-63 to MS-64 as reflected by the U.S. equivalents.

There has been an SP-65 graded by PCGS for a French Piedfort Essai, but that designation for a French 20-franc Gold Rooster conforms to no known scale devised by man anywhere on the face of the Earth.

Carry on!

Its ok Henri coins can be scary sometimes.

[rrantique]

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:34 PM, rrantique said:

 Full head The fingers! The talons and claws scales... Wow!

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

“I’ve got blisters on me fingers!”

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I am interested now in how many examples there are... So, I did an eBay search for "SP65" and I found an "Specimen" that I would enjoy VERY much (the price tag makes me take pause.  $50K buys a very nice half cent with a date I may enjoy more ) 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:14 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I am interested now in how many examples there are... So, I did an eBay search for "SP65" and I found an "Specimen" that I would enjoy VERY much (the price tag makes me take pause.  $50K buys a very nice half cent with a date I may enjoy more ) 

 

Ok so you are looking at an older presentation piece specimen. These were made on request for well heeled collectors of the day. There is also the possibility of this being a pattern fist run coin as well. It was struck on a high quality blank with  superior dies. Super nice.

[Henri Charriere]

When I see a coin a collector is interested in, I put myself in his place and ask myself, Now, what would you do?

First off, I don't like nice, round, even numbers such as those which abound on sites like eBay and Etsy.

Secondly, directly above the unjustifiable high price is a word, Condition, followed by a long blank.  If this coin with a reference to Breen [plate] member RWB has repeatedly expressed his distaste for, if not allergic reaction to, is one and the same, a Red Flag is raised.

I did a little research. Thirdly, the coin's residence in the country's premier gambling location is of little comfort.

Fourthly, many of the 35-plus thousand half cents are not exactly hard to locate and, as far as I am concerned, Proofs of which 220 were minted does not apply here.  If it did, that aforementioned empty space above the price would have been filled in accordly.

The average Half Cent, true to member NN's word, expressed elsewhere on another thread, averages $115. UNC's go for $465. BU's (MS-63) go for $738 and Proof (63) go for $5844, which the coin in question evidently is not. There is an oblique reference to coinappraiser.com.

The fact there is no "Or Best Offer" provision does not deter me.  I have routinely made outlandish cuts in price of my own transmitted under Contact Seller.  I simply casually point out coins I have seen or already have and politely suggest the owner's price is out of line.  I am unacquainted with your Half Cent collection but if this oddly described example is something you simply want though not necessarily in that condition  (remember, it is NOT circulated) I would pass on it.  I trust that you will make the right decision drawing on your many years of experience in this area. If after cursory inquiries you find the price to be par for the course, I would insist on a written appraisal from a reputable source of your choosing. Hopefully, members so inclined, may choose to add their two cents.

I thank the OP for allowing me to have my say on what is essentially a thread to post one's SP coins.

[Mike Meenderink]

@Henri Charriere Your writing takes a person on a gripping ride through your cerebrum. With egar panache you combine letters that solve the readers resolve.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Make no mistake, this is a very special half cent out of a very special collection.  The Tettenhorst collection may be the most famous of all time.  This example has no rival (and never will).  However, this coin just sold at HA for $9K plus BP on 7/20/23.  So, yes... this coin is not priced right.

However, if anyone wanted to buy it for me as a gift - I would very much enjoy it.  Thanks in advance.

[jimbo27]

Got the ten coin set.

[J P M]

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by J P M

[Mike Meenderink]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:10 AM, J P M said:

 

We have the same coin. Nice coin! Yours has a  SP/PL surface...NICe!

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

I gave a talk at ANA Summer Seminar on this very topic this past June. I showed ten SP coins, plus another that should be. That is the tour coin struck by me at the Royal Mint in 2019. 

[J P M]

On 10/1/2023 at 11:39 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

We have the same coin. Nice coin! Yours has a  SP/PL surface...NICe!

Ya Mike, Your SP looks to have a different finish? Your coin is from the set and mine looks like the matt finish strike. I must just be the lighting on your coin makes it look different.

Edited October 1, 2023 by J P M

[Mike Meenderink]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:30 PM, J P M said:

Ya Mike, Your SP looks to have a different finish? Your coin is from the set and mine looks like the matt finish strike. I must just be the lighting on your coin makes it look different.

Your coin has notably more proof like reflectivity. It looks like a first strike on a superior planchet. Its nice! Thats why these coins are special. They are unique to thier grade.

[wmmrjmmr]

Question:  Any thoughts on why none of the big graders have ever identified a specimen (business strike) Franklin Half and labeled it so?   I've only seen them marked Details - I suspect because they don't fit the Sheldon Scale.   Say you had a couple dozen, uncirculated, slightly out of specification Franklin halves.   If not the TPGs, who would you go to for proper identification?  Any experts out there?  Don't ask me to post pictures - not playing that game.