1970 d quarter 180 reversed die 2 2

[Kassi24]

I have a 1970 D meant were both sides of the quarter are upright. I believe it’s called a 180 reversed day. I was just wondering if anybody knew anything about this error. I have taken it to all the coin shops around where I live and they have all verified. It is a real quarter not counterfeit but it’s not in any of the air books and nobody seems to know anything about it.

[Sandon]

    Welcome to the NGC chat board. Please note that it would be helpful if you would include clear, cropped photos of each side of a coin about which you have questions. (In this case, a photo of the coin's edge would also have been helpful.)

   If you have what you describe and it is genuine, it is usually referred to as a "rotated die" error. If the rotation is in fact a full 180 degrees from the "coin turn" in which U.S. coins are normally struck, it is referred to as a "medal turn" or "medallic alignment".  Coins struck from rotated dies are fairly common and not considered to be major errors, but a fairly recent coin like this struck in a full "medal turn" would likely command some premium. Unfortunately, I have no data on recent sales for such items, but I doubt that such a coin's value would exceed $100. NGC would certify this coin as a mint error under the criteria stated for rotated die errors, which follow:

    "Rotated dies: All US Mint coins are struck with coin alignment. That is, when the coin is flipped from top to bottom, the reverse will be properly oriented. This is the opposite of medallic alignment, which has both the obverse and reverse oriented the same way. Rotated die errors tend to occur when a die is installed improperly or is loose and rotates on its own. It is much more common on early US Mint coinage. NGC will recognize rotated die mint errors only if there is at least 15 degrees of rotation." See Learn Grading: What Is a Mint Error? — Part 1 | NGC (ngccoin.com).

[EagleRJO]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:35 PM, Kassi24 said:

I have a 1970 D meant were both sides of the quarter are upright. I believe it’s called a 180 reversed day.

I assume you mean if you flip the coin vertically (to check the "coin turn") then the reverse or back of the coin is perfectly upside down.  As mentioned that would be a 180 degree "Rotated Die".

On 8/25/2023 at 10:35 PM, Kassi24 said:

I was just wondering if anybody knew anything about this error ... but it’s not in any of the air [error] books and nobody seems to know anything about it.

I also assume you got the quarter from general circulation (rolls or pocket change), where most people don't check the "coin turn".  There are likely a bunch of them in circulation, but unless it attracted the attention of a collector that likely would not be discovered.

I did a quick check of sold rotated die quarters on Great Collections as well as eBay, and the only similar one I found was a 1972-D 25C with about a 120 degree die rotation that went for $24 (attached).

A full 180 degree die rotation is more desirable to error collectors, so I would estimate the value would be around $30 to $50 raw like your coin, or around $100 or so certified as the coin appears to be somewhat worn, based on auction/sold listings from Great Collection and ebay.  That should also make it clear you would likely lose money submitting it to a TPG for certification, with a cost around $90 to $100 just for that coin.

Edited August 30, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I agree with the others, and if the coin is truly rotated 180 degrees, it would be a Mint Error and described as Medallic Alignment. 

Such an error is more desirable to collectors than other rotated die errors, but the other factor in the value of the coin you have is its condition. If the coin has significant wear, then even with the error, its value will not greatly increase. Most error coins that sell for large premiums are also in excellent MS condition or are described as "Choice".

If you could add to this post clear, cropped images of both sides of the coin, it could help in trying to come up with a ballpark value of it.

[Kassi24]

Edited August 26, 2023 by Kassi24
Added photos

[Fenntucky Mike]

Appears to be 180deg rotated, nice find. What does the edge look like, reeded, no visible seem?

I agree with Eagle's price assessment, $30-$50. Right around there at any rate.

 

[powermad5000]

Thank you for the updated pics. There is a level of wear present to put this coin into the low AU or more likely XF range, so with the error I would put it into the $50-60 range. Medallic turn is not as common as other rotated dies so that is why I make my value assessment where I did.

Thats a great find! I have only one Medallic Alignment error amongst about 8 Rotated Die errors in my whole collection which is now over 500 slabs if that gives you any idea of its difficulty in finding such one.

[Kassi24]

I apologize for my original post. I should’ve proofread before I posted. Talk to text doesn’t always type the correct words. Anyway, I did find this article. Does anyone know what this is about? Could it pertain to my quarter in anyway. 

[Mike Meenderink]

Your quarter is very rare and should be graded and encapsulated simply because of the Medallic alignment error. These coins are exceedingly rare. Unless the coin is really really worn out like an AG (about good)or a G(good) coin and the error is not readily visible most collectors will pass. A coin in a lower grade with still clearly a visible error is pleasing and desirable to the error collector. Error collectors do consider condition but... error rarity in any pleasing condition is always king. A lower grade coin with a rarely seen clear desirable error can still bring good money. Your coin is one of those coins. Realistically this coin graded and attributed medallic alignment error in the mid AU range would bring $300- $700 on the open market.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Sandon]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:32 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Realistically this coin graded and attributed medallic alignment error in the mid AU range would bring $300- $700 on the open market.

  @Mike Meenderink --Can you cite any recent auction or other verifiable sales records for comparable common date, modern circulating issue coins struck in a "medallic alignment" realizing such a high price? Would you be willing to pay the OP that much for it?

   @Kassi24--The article you showed is from 1999, when State quarters were new and very popular. The article doesn't mention any actual sale price for this Pennsylvania quarter purportedly struck from rotated dies, and I've never heard of it, so it has never become a well-known or popular variety. (I've been collecting coins for over 52 years.)  It's not that unusual for coins to be struck from rotated dies. 

[Mike Meenderink]

Ok fine give it to me.

[Kassi24]

I know the article was from 1999 but the coins they were talking about that were worth $2000 were the 20 upside down dollar coins released in 1989. I’ve done research, I’ve taken my coin to all coin shops around here, I reached out to the mint, I’ve searched every website, every book and that article was the closest thing I could find with a coin similar to mine. It is very rare I don’t think there has been one like mine sold at any auction. I have a couple other 1970 quarters with the same mint and they are normal. They are aligned how they’re supposed to be

[Kassi24]

Mike, I agree with you 100 percent. My coin is one of a kind, it may not be in the best shape but that’s okay. Think of how many hands this quarter has been in and nobody even had a clue what they had. I just so happened to look at my change I got back from gas station that day and noticed it. I don’t know how or why but I did. I know this coin is something special that no one has. It may be worth 30 to Fenntucky Mike and EagleRJO, but I’m no dummy I know it’s worth a lot more than that. I’ve gotten a fair share of rude comments on other coin forums. People trying to tell my it’s a magician coin, it’s fake, it’s this, it’s that. Well I know it’s a real quarter I’ve had it verified by a credible coin dealer in my area. It weighs 5.6 g it’s still in great shape for its age . It’s a one of a kind. I know it’s worth more than 30 to someone. 

[Hoghead515]

Its a very cool quarter indeed. Very cool find. Its only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.  The best way to find that information is to look at sold listings and auction records for coins simular to it. Cant go by current asking prices. Anyone can ask whatever they like for coins such as some on Ebay. There are tons of rotated die coins at all different prices. Some higher and some lower but it dont mean anything if no one is buying them. A coin is only worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. One thing about the letter was it was talking about dollars instead of quarters. You would also have to verify it and see if any of those dollars had ever been sold for $2000 or if that was someones guess at the time. They were probably uncirculated also. That plays a big part of it to. If a coin is heavily circulated the price drops quite a bit. 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2023 at 1:52 AM, Kassi24 said:

The image with the mirror shows it is about a 180 degree die rotation error.  Very nice find.  Also, you should always hold coins on the edges or use gloves.

On 8/26/2023 at 4:07 PM, Kassi24 said:

Anyway, I did find this article. Does anyone know what this is about? Could it pertain to my quarter in anyway.

That is an old article about a craze over state quarter errors when they were first being discovered, and some state quarter error prices went through the roof.  That craze is long over and prices have come back down to reality.

I have seen recent action records for these state quarter errors at GC and eBay indicating only a modest premium above the coin value, as well as similar rotated die errors for other coins.  Like a nice certified MS Kennedy half dollar with a similar rotation going for around $160 on GC.

If anyone has sold auction records for this type of rotated die error that indicates otherwise I would sure like to check them out.

On 8/26/2023 at 8:08 PM, Kassi24 said:

My coin is one of a kind

Not likely at all.  It's the mints goal to avoid any errors, so if they are noticed the mint destroys them.  Modern coin presses operate at high speeds, so if the dies were misaligned quite a number would have been struck before it would have been noticed, and the dies realigned.

And enough would need to have been struck so that when the misaligned dies were noticed the coins would not have just been taken from the bin at the coin press to be destroyed.  It's the mint's practice that when an error is discovered it is corrected and any coins with errors that they can find be destroyed.

Bottom line is it's not possible that dies worked loose and became rotated or were improperly set, your coin was struck, and then the dies realigned without that coin being destroyed.  They are likely just still out in circulation or in collections.

Edited September 10, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    What you need to understand is that the value of a coin, like everything else, is determined by the combination of supply and demand.  It is my impression that rotated die errors aren't particularly popular with error collectors. Just because you've never seen one before doesn't mean that a knowledgeable collector would be willing to pay you a substantial amount of money for it. 

   I suggest that you obtain a professional opinion about this coin from a dealer who specializes in mint errors. One such dealer is Sullivan Numismatics of Land O Lakes, FL, www.sullivannumismatics.com, (931) 797-4888. On the website, go to the "Customer Service" tab and click "Contact Us" for instructions on sending questions about and photos of your coin.  You can also look for other dealers in this specialty on the NGC coin dealer locator at Find Coin Shops & Dealers | Coin Dealer Locator | NGC (ngccoin.com) or through the website of the Professional Numismatists Guild at www.pngdealers.org. 

[Hoghead515]

If you browse Ebay you will see quite a few rotated die errors. They've been on there for quite a while also. Espically the ones with the very high asking price. Theres a very limited amount of error collectors and like @Sandon mentioned theres not a high demand for rotated die errors. There is to much supply of them for the demand of the collectors. The internet is full of them. This is just me but, if I were to find it I would put it in a flip or capsule and put it up with my other error coins. I dont buy error coins but I save them as I find them. Still a very cool find. I would love to find one for my collection but Im not willing to buy one. Espically for $2000. Id rather buy a classic coin in mint condition if I were gonna spend that kind of money. Most other collectors would to. 

[Just Bob]

This coin is a great circulation find, and is likely worth more than $30 to the right buyer, but I doubt it will ever bring $300, much less $2000. Probably the most recognized name in the field of numismatic errors is collector, dealer, and authenticator Fred Weinberg. His error collection was sold by Heritage last year. In the offerings was a 1965 Special Mint Set quarter, graded SP62 by PCGS, that was rotated 180 degrees. It was slabbed in a special Fred Weinberg Collection slab. It brought $180 including the 20% buyer's fee. This was an uncirculated SMS coin with a notable provenance, and it brought less than $200. Draw your own conclusions.

Link to the auction page

[EagleRJO]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:29 PM, Just Bob said:

1965 Special Mint Set quarter, graded SP62 by PCGS, that was rotated 180 degrees. It was slabbed in a special Fred Weinberg Collection slab. It brought $180 including the 20% buyer's fee. This was an uncirculated SMS coin with a notable provenance, and it brought less than $200

Glad to see someone else actually looking up auction records instead of pulling numbers out of thin air.  That is in the ballpark with the certified MS Kennedy half dollar with a similar rotation going for almost $160 which was a nice uncirculated slabbed coin, unlike the op's raw coin which has some wear and is likely an XF grade (see attached example from CoinFacts).

I also saw the attached raw half dollar that recently sold for $18 on eBay.  Granted it has more wear and slightly less of a rotation.  But I think it reinforces the estimated $30 to $50 range for the op's raw coin that also has significant wear but a greater rotation at almost 180 degrees which makes it somewhat more valuable.

Edited September 10, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

@Kassi24, please keep in mind that every mint error coin is unique. No two mint error coins are alike. Some are similar but none are alike. That said, not every error coin is rare. What I am getting at is rotated dies are more common of an error amongst error coins, and while true that Medallic Alignment coins are harder to find than say a 20 degree rotated die, this does not necessarily equate to substantially higher premiums paid by a buyer for it. I have dealt with Sullivan Numismatics (they specialize in only error coins) in the past (and will continue to in the future), so if you truly believe your quarter is valued beyond the $50-60 range, I suggest you give them a call or send them an email with the photos you have provided to us and request if they could give you an estimate on the worth of your quarter.

[Coinbuf]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:02 PM, Sandon said:

  @Mike Meenderink --Can you cite any recent auction or other verifiable sales records for comparable common date, modern circulating issue coins struck in a "medallic alignment" realizing such a high price? Would you be willing to pay the OP that much for it?

   @Kassi24--The article you showed is from 1999, when State quarters were new and very popular. The article doesn't mention any actual sale price for this Pennsylvania quarter purportedly struck from rotated dies, and I've never heard of it, so it has never become a well-known or popular variety. (I've been collecting coins for over 52 years.)  It's not that unusual for coins to be struck from rotated dies. 

Crickets from @Mike Meenderink  the master of misinformation, what a surprise that he has no data to support his fantasy value claim.  

[RonnieR131]

 Everyone tried their best and Sandon covered it all 3 times. After all of that, Kass then says she's done her research and that it is very rare and 'one of a kind'. So that's that. I wish her well.

[J P M]

I roll hunt all the time and I think it is a great find ( yes one of a kind ) like all coins or anything for that matter. The point everyone is trying to put out there Kass is that it is a very worn coin and unless you find someone who is in love with it. I would just put it in a 2x2 and keep it for yourself.  

[VKurtB]

I just now checked in on this thread to see if it has a good photo of the edge. Still nope. Until there is one, we know NOTHING about this coin.

[RWB]

On 8/27/2023 at 5:17 AM, powermad5000 said:

@Kassi24, please keep in mind that every mint error coin is unique. No two mint error coins are alike.

This type of error is not unique. A rotated die might strike 1 to 10,000 pieces before it is discovered or removed from service. The same is true for doubled die coins, and all others involving the dies.

Individually unique pieces are ones involving the striking process (not the dies) such as off-center, cracked coins, double/triple strikes, etc. Errors caused by equipment wear, such as mechanical doubling, are not unique, either.

Although 180-degree rotation is rare, they do not bring high prices except for gold and large silver coins. There are simply more of these available than people who collect them.

[VKurtB]

On 8/28/2023 at 3:52 PM, RWB said:

This type of error is not unique. A rotated die might strike 1 to 10,000 pieces before it is discovered or removed from service. The same is true for doubled die coins, and all others involving the dies.

Individually unique pieces are ones involving the striking process (not the dies) such as off-center, cracked coins, double/triple strikes, etc. Errors caused by equipment wear, such as mechanical doubling, are not unique, either.

Although 180-degree rotation is rare, they do not bring high prices except for gold and large silver coins. There are simply more of these available than people who collect them.

It only SEEMS that lots of people collect these when you read sites like THIS one. Outside of places like this, VERY few collectors are about errors. For SOME reason, there was a "golden age" of die rotation - the 1860's to 1870's. Probably had something to do with die mounting technology of the era.

Edited August 28, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

On 8/28/2023 at 3:52 PM, RWB said:

A rotated die might strike 1 to 10,000 pieces before it is discovered or removed from service.

I have a question. Unless the die is purposely installed in a rotated position (which I am guessing this is double checked before striking begins to start at no rotation or 0.00 degrees), then do not rotated die strikes begin from a loosely installed die at 0 degrees which strike after strike begins to rotate by minor increments of degrees? As in generically speaking, coin 1 starts at 0.00 degrees. Coin 2 at 0.10 degrees. Coin 3 at 0.20 degrees. (you can see where this is going). That is why I stated that each error is unique as I originally did. Depending on the looseness of the die then could it not rotate at a faster rate as in Coin 1 at 0.00 degrees. Coin 2 at 2 degrees. Coin 3 at 4 degrees, etc.???

I am not sure if this is actually how this happens so I am asking. Or, is the die installed rotated and the Mint struck 5,000 of these quarters at 180 degrees before a Mint employee caught the problem? If so, and they are all the same, then there could be tons of them floating around out there all struck at 180 degrees which would further devalue the OP's coin.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by powermad5000

[RWB]

The upper and lower dies fit into die chucks with set screws -- a little like on a power drill. The upper die was subject to greater vibration and the lower, so probably more likely to rotate. The press operator was supposed to check coins frequently, but that was not always done. There were also supposed to be alignment flanges - tongue and groove -  to prevent die rotation and use of the wrong dies in a chuck. We don't really have enough details to understand if this was done consistently in the old days.

Modern dies have alignment pins. I have not looked at the modern presses in any detail. Any speculation about How and Why would be just guesses on my part.

Edited August 29, 2023 by RWB

[powermad5000]

Thank you @RWB. 

[Kassi24]

It’s a one of a kind to me. I think it’s unique, I have a few other 1970 quarters same mint and they are just fine. I wasn’t even trying to sell it. I just wondered other peoples thoughts about it. People are so rude sometimes. It may mean nothing to anyone else but I think it’s pretty cool. And I’ve yet to find another like it so it’s rare to me.