New 2005-P Bison DDO? 1 1

[TheColoradoNumismatist]

Hey there everyone!

So I had a roll of 2005-P Bison Jefferson Nickels straight from the Mint in OMR and my 2 year old twins were curious and decided to open it. So I was of course pretty upset because I did not want to open them. Well they made the decision for me. So last night we scoped the whole roll looking for Speared Bison's, Detached Legs and things of that nature. Well upon further inspection we found these and I could not find anything online about them. I was using Brian's Varieties to looks at all of the Jefferson 2005-P Nickel DDO's and this was not on there. So we went and did some more research online looking for something similar. With no luck anywhere even in forums and other Numismatic Groups so here we are asking you all for your opinions before I send it into VV for attribution. So looking at the other one's on Brian's Varieties, unless its the "Best of Variety" There's really not that much of a spread on any of the DDO's listed. I didn't even notice the possible doubling first of course what I noticed was the large die chip on the reverse on the "S" in "States". Then after finding the 2nd one I noticed a TINY spread in the letter "Y" in Liberty on the Obverse of the coin. So after finding that spread we went back to the first coin to find that same spread in the same location. We ended up finding a 3rd one before we finished going through the whole roll. Again looking at the Obverse side first I seen the spread in the "Y" and said to my followers, "I bet you this one has the same filled in "S" on the reverse as the others!" Sure enough after flipping the coin the filled in "S" was there. So I'm not sure if this is a new variety of DDO or not. Like I previously mentioned before the spread on some of the DDO's are VERY TINY so it makes it very plausible being a new variety I would think. But ultimately, that's why I'm here asking you all what you think. All comments and advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

Can't tell from those pictures, if you can get an image without all the shadowing in that area, it would help. Might be a small elongated die chip or gouge, maybe struck through, doesn't look like a DD to me so far. Is it raised off of the scrip "y", a shelf, incuse? Could just be similar damage.  

[JT2]

the @Fenntucky Mike is correct it is a die chip  in the S  the other is just die deterioration

[Greenstang]

If you can’t see it at 5X, then it is irrelevant anyways as it would not be recognized by the leading TPG’s.

[J P M]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:01 AM, JT2 said:

the @Fenntucky Mike is correct it is a die chip  in the S  the other is just die deterioration

I agree , It also looks like a lot of bin bangs and scrapes? 

[TheColoradoNumismatist]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:08 AM, Greenstang said:

If you can’t see it at 5X, then it is irrelevant anyways as it would not be recognized by the leading TPG’s.

Then what about WDDO-003, 004, 006, 007, 010, 013 and WDDO-018? Some of those have far less of a spread than what is seen here. I'm not just a newbie with the normal every scrape and ding and bang asking if this is a error. The only reason why I'd suggest it is because of how small and minimal the other Doubled Die Varieties are.

Here's a better picture for everyone to see that even shows more.

I know MD, SD and DDD but in comparison to the other Die Varieties this is Spot on with the others.

First picture shown with the Red Outline is mine, then the Second photo is WDDO-003.

[TheColoradoNumismatist]

Let me rephrase, "I'm not just a newbie" because I am a newbie in the grand scheme of things in comparison of knowledge in coins known vs. what I do not know haha!.

But I know the difference from PMD and other things. So we are about Mid Tier! 

[Coinbuf]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:42 AM, TheColoradoNumismatist said:

Then what about WDDO-003, 004, 006, 007, 010, 013 and WDDO-018? Some of those have far less of a spread than what is seen here. I'm not just a newbie with the normal every scrape and ding and bang asking if this is a error. The only reason why I'd suggest it is because of how small and minimal the other Doubled Die Varieties are.

Here's a better picture for everyone to see that even shows more.

I know MD, SD and DDD but in comparison to the other Die Varieties this is Spot on with the others.

First picture shown with the Red Outline is mine, then the Second photo is WDDO-003.

 

There is a very big difference between your coin (which I believe is only MD) and the photo you pulled of the WDDO-003, yours is clearly shelflike and not at all like a true doubled die.    Doubled die coins are not decided by the "spread" of the doubling but rather by what caused the doubling.   However, from your posts you seem to have convinced yourself completely that you are correct so having an internet fight over this will not be of any further value, I suggest that you send it off to be evaluated by the people that can make the call as they will have the coin in hand to evaluate.   As I said I think you will get the coin back with an MD determination, but I have been wrong and could be again.

Please update this thread when you get your results so that we all can learn from this experience.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Coinbuf

[TheColoradoNumismatist]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:42 PM, Coinbuf said:

There is a very big difference between your coin (which I believe is only MD) and the photo you pulled of the WDDO-003, yours is clearly shelflike and not at all like a true doubled die.    Doubled die coins are not decided by the "spread" of the doubling but rather by what caused the doubling.   However, from your posts you seem to have convinced yourself completely that you are correct so having an internet fight over this will not be of any further value, I suggest that you send it off to be evaluated by the people that can make the call as they will have the coin in hand to evaluate.   As I said I think you will get the coin back with an MD determination, but I have been wrong and could be again.

Please update this thread when you get your results so that we all can learn from this experience.

Some assumption you've made there from reading one post from me. Not sure also why you're bringing up an internet fight. I don't know you nor am I trying to have a fight with you or anyone else. It was simply asking a question and mentioned coins referenced for comparison. So not sure why there's a need to be so defensive! But thanks for the advice Coinbuf. We will see what James Wiles says. 

Updates coming soon!

[powermad5000]

Looking forward to the updates.

On varieties such as this that cannot be seen easily without magnification, it does take someone with more of an expert eye to make a definitive determination and having the coin in hand is the biggest part of that decision. Effects of toning, wear, and even the lighting and angle the photo is taken from can affect how those being asked an opinion on a DDO that needs some level of magnification to not only be seen but determined to be as such to give an accurate recommendation. A slight shadow or angle can affect our opinion if that makes sense.

My opinion is such that without the coin in hand in this particular case, I would not be able to either confirm or deny the presence of verifying such a variety from the photos.

[Fenntucky Mike]

What do you mean by spread? Split serifs, added thickness, both? Not the shelf at the base of the details, that's MD. The doubling in the image for 003 is at the top of the "t" and runs down the right to the crossbar, I think anyway. In general, I'm not seeing anything that would lead me to believe this is a DD. That doesn't mean there isn't some type of very minor hub doubling, though, there is probably some miniscule amount of hub doubling more often than most realize. Send it in, maybe it'll be #026. Let us know the results, Good luck. 

Looks like there are 89 WDDR's listed for this date and MM. Wowzah! 

[Hoghead515]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

 

Looks like there are 89 WDDR's listed for this date and MM. Wowzah! 

Maybe we now have  90.   

[TheColoradoNumismatist]

Thanks everyone for the words of advice and what ever else some have given..

Next update from me will be either a reply from James Wiles saying send 'er in bud or save your money, either way it'll be an update! 

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

What do you mean by spread? Split serifs, added thickness, both? Not the shelf at the base of the details, that's MD. The doubling in the image for 003 is at the top of the "t" and runs down the right to the crossbar, I think anyway. In general, I'm not seeing anything that would lead me to believe this is a DD. That doesn't mean there isn't some type of very minor hub doubling, though, there is probably some miniscule amount of hub doubling more often than most realize. Send it in, maybe it'll be #026. Let us know the results, Good luck. 

Looks like there are 89 WDDR's listed for this date and MM. Wowzah! 

And how many of Wexler's 89 do the TPGS firms (actually, I only care about THIS one's opinion) actually recognize? I'd be surprised if it's very many. Wexler is an IDEOLOGUE about varieties. NGC does NOT accept many Wexler numbers, nor do I. Some are pure fantasy.

EDIT: A very quick glance shows me NGC recognizes only TWO 2005 5-cent varieties; one a 2005-P and one a 2005-D.

2 for 89? That'll get you sent down to the minors for sure.

Edited August 27, 2023 by VKurtB

[Hoghead515]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:23 AM, VKurtB said:

And how many of Wexler's 89 do the TPGS firms (actually, I only care about THIS one's opinion) actually recognize? I'd be surprised if it's very many. Wexler is an IDEOLOGUE about varieties. NGC does NOT accept many Wexler numbers, nor do I. Some are pure fantasy.

I agree. I never understood why they recorded every single little microscopic bit of doubling. Then again he is charging a pretty good fee to examine peoples coins. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:32 AM, Hoghead515 said:

I agree. I never understood why they recorded every single little microscopic bit of doubling. Then again he is charging a pretty good fee to examine peoples coins. 

Whuuuut? A profit motive?!?!?! I stand utterly aghast!!!!

[VKurtB]

People can geek out to Wexler numbers all they like. I ain't playin'. It's become a scam. And I say that as someone who frequently is NEXT TO the CONECA table at shows. They provide all the comedy I need.

Edited August 27, 2023 by VKurtB

[Hoghead515]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:35 AM, VKurtB said:

People can geek out to Wexler numbers all they like. I ain't playin'. It's become a scam. And I say that as someone who frequently is NEXT TO the CONECA table at shows. They provide all the comedy I need.

You probabaly have seen the ANACS discovery coin slabs also havent you?  Seems they are a fan of Wexler.  Ive seen these things on Ebay for crazy premiums. Hard telling how many Wexler varieties Ive thrown in the coin jug over the last few years. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:23 AM, VKurtB said:

And how many of Wexler's 89 do the TPGS firms (actually, I only care about THIS one's opinion) actually recognize? I'd be surprised if it's very many. Wexler is an IDEOLOGUE about varieties. NGC does NOT accept many Wexler numbers, nor do I. Some are pure fantasy.

EDIT: A very quick glance shows me NGC recognizes only TWO 2005 5-cent varieties; one a 2005-P and one a 2005-D.

2 for 89? That'll get you sent down to the minors for sure.

Virtually zero. I find it mildly interesting in that you could compare the DD's listed to the number of dies produced and get even more of an idea of how completely normal and irrelevant virtually all of this is. 

On 8/27/2023 at 11:33 AM, VKurtB said:

Whuuuut? A profit motive?!?!?! I stand utterly aghast!!!!

You couldn't pay me enough to look at or for this type of doubling. Well...  You'd have to pay me A LOT and foot the bill for my rehab.  

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Spelling

[ldhair]

I thought it was a good thing when so many started collecting minor doubled die coins. I hope that some stay with the hobby when they finally understand the truth. It has brought many to the hobby but for the wrong reasons. I blame those that teach the topic as a way to get rich. 

I don't know what Wexler teaches but hope he teaches caution and the truth about the value of minor doubling. Those that sell these things at stupid prices are just part of a giant scam. All that true collectors can do is to keep trying to teach the truth. 

[J P M]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:43 AM, Hoghead515 said:

You probabaly have seen the ANACS discovery coin slabs also havent you?  Seems they are a fan of Wexler.  Ive seen these things on Ebay for crazy premiums. Hard telling how many Wexler varieties Ive thrown in the coin jug over the last few years. 

It is my understanding It is a option when sending in a coin to Wexler if it is found to have a oddity. They will send it to ANACS to have it slabbed for you , for a fee of course. Many of these will not cross over But new collectors will think they are error coins anyway. 

[“”]

Actually, the 2005 Bison nickel DDO-1 was discovered by me in 1995. What made this a key find at the time was the implementation of the single-squeeze restrained Hubbing process which was expected to eliminate hub doubling issues encountered by prior methods. Mint officials at the time denied repeatedly this could happen with the new process. A write up of the discovery was included in the November 07, 2005 Coin World paper. The original specimen was certified by ANACS which I still own. Both NGC and PCGS has recognized the variety and certified examples as well. Early examples brought substantial premiums at auction.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Simple Collector

[VKurtB]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:53 AM, Simple Collector said:

Actually, the 2005 Bison nickel DDO-1 was discovered by me in 1995. What made this a key find at the time was the implementation of the single-squeeze restrained Hubbing process which was expected to eliminate hub doubling issues encountered by prior methods. Mint officials at the time denied repeatedly this could happen with the new process. A write up of the discovery was included in the November 07, 2005 Coin World paper. The original specimen was certified by ANACS which I still own. Both NGC and PCGS has recognized the variety and certified examples as well. Early examples brought substantial premiums at auction.

 

 

AMAZING! You discovered it 10 years before they were created. That's IMPRESSIVE.

[“”]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:35 PM, VKurtB said:

AMAZING! You discovered it 10 years before they were created. That's IMPRESSIVE.

Mistyped. It was in 2005 around late July or August I believe. It took some time to get it authenticated and graded by ANACS and the article in Coin World followed.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/28/2023 at 3:30 PM, Simple Collector said:

Mistyped. It was in 2005 around late July or August I believe. It took some time to get it authenticated and graded by ANACS and the article in Coin World followed.

[See what you started! 🤣  To me all these hits, runs and errors take a back-seat to the '55 LHC.]

[EagleRJO]

It looks like the only doubled die 2005-P 5C Bison recognized by the big boys or assigned an FS number is DDO-001 or FS-101 (see attached pics)

http://varietyvista.com/04c JN DD Vol 3 WJ/2005PDDO001 Bison Nickel.htm

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/nickels/jefferson-five-cents-1938-date/819709/

You can actually see the doubling on that coin, with the others being barely noticeable or carrying any significant premium.  If you are really into doubled dies knock yourself out, but I really don't see the significance or appeal of the others to collectors in general where you need significant magnification to even identify that.