1889 CC Morgan Dollar an exception for a cleaned coin? I was thinking so. Any opinions welcome. 0

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by NeverEnoughCoins09
added example

[powermad5000]

I am trying to figure out what you mean by "an exception" for a cleaned coin. If it was cleaned, there is no exception for a cleaning, and it also is no longer an exceptional coin. A cleaned coin will lose significant value in the marketplace. There are no exceptions to that.

This coin in base uncirculated (MS 60) is listed in the price guide currently as $24,000. As a collector of Morgans, if I were actually looking to purchase this coin (which I would take a hard pass on), I would be looking for a very steep discount on price due to a previous cleaning on top of the terrible eye appeal it currently has. The uneven toning on this coin is not the most attractive, especially for a coin in higher end detail. My take it or leave it offer for this coin would be $6,000 which I am sure the seller would not accept such an offer. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by powermad5000

[Sandon]

   The coin appears to be in a PCGS holder, so you should be able to find out whether PCGS described it as "cleaned" or otherwise impaired. The unnatural color and hairlines that run in the same direction indicate it has been extensively "cleaned". I have knowingly purchased "cleaned" coins for my collection with an appropriate discount if I find them to be reasonably attractive, unlike this one. My own 1889-CC dollar, purchased uncertified several decades ago, should grade an unimpaired Fine or so and may be more desirable than this one with AU or so details.
 

[Coinbuf]

As a general rule I always say that it is a bad idea to buy a problem coin, however, it is true that there is a home for every coin, if the home for this coin is in your collection only you can decide.   Equally true is that at some price every coin becomes attractive, metaphorically speaking that is.     This coin will be a good fit for someone at some price, what that price is I don't know.   For myself it would have to be less than 1K, and even then, I would really have to think hard about it.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Coinbuf

[GoldFinger1969]

"There are no such things as BAD coins -- only bad prices !!"  

A derivivative saying of something we say in the financial markets.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

I was asking because I thought this was a hard coin to come by unless you have big pockets. As you all know it is expensive even in the lowest grades and very costly in higher grades.

To my understanding a lot of these coins on the market have been cleaned unfortunately. Ones that have not been cleaned cost a high five or six figures. If money didn't matter I would never consider this coin.

So I thought that if the price was right maybe a cleaned coin of a rarity such as the 1889 CC would be an exception for an average collector that doesn't have deep pockets. 

It is a 1889 CC Cleaned AU details. I see the flaws and it is not very attractive but I liked the detail compared to a worn one and was only keeping an eye on it because it is below $700 but I'm sure that will change in the next few days.

I enjoyed everyone's take and the varying opinions. I appreciate it and agree with everyone's post. 

I will probably just pass and be patient things come and go.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:36 PM, Coinbuf said:

As a general rule I always say that it is a bad idea to buy a problem coin, however, it is true that there is a home for every coin, if the home for this coin is in your collection only you can decide.   Equally true is that at some price every coin becomes attractive, metaphorically speaking that is.    

 For myself it would have to be less than 1K, and even then, I would really have to think hard about it.

This is basically where I was at lol. Things come and go I will just be patient. In the meantime I will keep an eye on things more in my price range.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:18 PM, Sandon said:

   The coin appears to be in a PCGS holder, so you should be able to find out whether PCGS described it as "cleaned" or otherwise impaired. The unnatural color and hairlines that run in the same direction indicate it has been extensively "cleaned". I have knowingly purchased "cleaned" coins for my collection with an appropriate discount if I find them to be reasonably attractive, unlike this one. My own 1889-CC dollar, purchased uncertified several decades ago, should grade an unimpaired Fine or so and may be more desirable than this one with AU or so details.
 

Laughed at the "unlike this one" I agree it's pretty ugly. I was just wanting due to rarity and more detail compared to worn ones and possible cheaper cost compared to better condition 1889 CC Morgans.

As you said and your completely right. Your unimpaired Fine I'm sure would be more desirable than the one I posted hands down.

Congratulations on your 1889 CC that's awesome! Maybe one day I can obtain one. For now I will let it go and be patient. Things come and go everyday.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:27 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I was asking because I thought this was a hard coin to come by unless you have big pockets. As you all know it is expensive even in the lowest grades and very costly in higher grades. To my understanding a lot of these coins on the market have been cleaned unfortunately. Ones that have not been cleaned cost a high five or six figures. If money didn't matter I would never consider this coin.

So I thought that if the price was right maybe a cleaned coin of a rarity such as the 1889 CC would be an exception for an average collector that doesn't have deep pockets.  It is a 1889 CC Cleaned AU details. I see the flaws and it is not very attractive but I liked the detail compared to a worn one and was only keeping an eye on it because it is below $700 but I'm sure that will change in the next few days. I enjoyed everyone's take and the varying opinions. I appreciate it and agree with everyone's post.  I will probably just pass and be patient things come and go.

If YOU like the coin...and the price is right....then it's YOUR decision. 

For many of us...where another non-Details coin, at a slightly higher price sometime down the line, will be available....passing on a Details coin makes sense.  If this particular coin, in a non-Details condition is going to cost far beyond your means now and in the future... then maybe you should consider this coin or another Details coin....IF you like them and the "damage" is minimal.

For sure, show HiDef pics here to get the opinion of the experts here.

Good Luck ! 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:51 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I was just wanting due to rarity and more detail compared to worn ones and possible cheaper cost compared to better condition 1889 CC Morgans.

Unless you are doing a complete set of Morgans, if you want a fairly rare Carson City Morgan at a more reasonable price try looking into an 1885-CC Morgan, like the attached PCGS MS63 for about $1k I saw for sale.

The mintage for the 1885-CC Morgans at 228,000 is actually lower than the 1889-CC mintage of 350,000 per the Red Book.  It's just that the high MS 1885-CC coins do not go for ridiculous prices, unlike the high MS 1889-CC coins at 6 figures which I think drags up the prices for the lower 1889-CC grades.

[Coinbuf]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:31 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

This is basically where I was at lol. Things come and go I will just be patient. In the meantime I will keep an eye on things more in my price range.

This is a good way to approach coin buying, and when asked I have almost always advised patience.   It is important to remember that very few coins are so rare that you need to be quick on the trigger with the first coin to come along.  As I type this there are 16 details or genuine examples and over 60 straight graded examples of this date available just on collectors corner alone, there is nothing rare or difficult about finding this or just about any key date.   Keep your powder dry and wait for that good coin to show up, there will be many more coins of this date to choose from.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:05 PM, EagleRJO said:

Unless you are doing a complete set of Morgans, if you want a fairly rare Carson City Morgan at a more reasonable price try looking into an 1885-CC Morgan, like the attached PCGS MS63 for about $1k I saw for sale. The mintage for the 1885-CC Morgans at 228,000 is actually lower than the 1889-CC mintage of 350,000 per the Red Book.  It's just that the high MS 1885-CC coins do not go for ridiculous prices, unlike the high MS 1889-CC coins at 6 figures which I think drags up the prices for the lower 1889-CC grades.

Do both coins have a relatively low number of TOTAL survivors (esp. considering there are many MSD collectors)...or is it just in AU and higher grades that each becomes super-rare and prices skyrocket ?

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do both coins have a relatively low number of TOTAL survivors (esp. considering there are many MSD collectors)...or is it just in AU and higher grades that each becomes super-rare and prices skyrocket ?

I believe 1889 CC mintage vs survivors due to circulation and melting down is lower but the 1885 CC is low mintage but higher survivors and easier to obtain at a more affordable price in better conditions.

I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure 1889 CC Morgan is nicknamed King of Morgan Dollars.That's why I wanted one

I see them sell well even in horrible cleaned conditions etc.

Could be wrong though..

[EagleRJO]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do both coins have a relatively low number of TOTAL survivors 

I don't pay much attention to survival estimates as I think they are just wild guesses, and you never know what people are holding.  There have been Morgans thought to be very rare until bags of them were found, like the 1903-O which was the "King of Morgans" right up a hoard was found.

But there are many more higher grade 1885-CC Morgans certified by TPG's, and the 1889-CC Morgans were not part of the GSA sales in the 1970's.  That may just mean there are bags of them lying around somewhere, like the more recent NY Bank Hoard discovered in 2018 or the Great Southern Hoard discovered in 2020.

On 8/23/2023 at 12:26 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure 1889 CC Morgan is nicknamed King of Morgan Dollars. That's why I wanted one

The "King of Morgans" is the 1895 Proof $1 with only 880 struck, which would cost about the equivalent of a small house for an uncirculated one.  I have heard the 1889-CC referred to as the "King of CC Morgans", due to how few higher grade ones have been found.

But I wouldn't get too hung up on what people call certain coins as that can change.  I collect what I find appealing, not what something is called or what is on a paper tag.

Edited August 23, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   The availability of specific issues of Morgan dollars in various grades usually has nothing to do with their original mintage figures. Some dates with relatively low mintages such as the 1885-CC (228,000) and the 1899 (330,000) had large quantities preserved unissued in Treasury vaults as backing for currency (Silver Certificates) until as late as 1964. Others with relatively high mintages such as the 1886-O (10,710,000) and the 1901 (6,962,000) are relatively scarce today in any uncirculated or higher circulated grade, presumably because most of the stored portions of their mintages were melted down as a result of the Pittman Act of 1918, and surviving coins are mostly more worn examples from those that had previously been placed in circulation. Of the original 228,000 1885-CC dollars minted, 148,285 (approximately 65% of the original mintage) were still held by the Treasury in March 1964 and were subsequently sold to the public in the GSA sales of 1972-80, and some additional 1,000-coin uncirculated bags had reportedly been released and obtained by coin dealers during the 1940s and 50s.

   In contrast the Treasury had only one uncirculated 1889-CC dollar to offer in the GSA sales. Reportedly, some 1,000-coin bags of uncirculated 1889-CCs were released over the decades before 1964, and there are certainly tens of thousands of circulated coins in existence, as indicated by the NGC Census and the PCGS Population Report. Interestingly, the NGC Census shows about 6,200 coins awarded various numerical grades and 23,328 pieces given "Details" grades, indicating that many 1889-CCs have been "cleaned" or otherwise abused in a misguided effort to make them appear to be a higher grade. (The PCGS Population Report shows nearly ten thousand 1889-CCs numerically graded but does not report a "Details" population, which also likely includes many thousands of pieces. Some of the reported population consists of resubmissions of the same coin, but there are also coins certified by other services and uncertified pieces like mine.) 

   There are no "rare" Morgan dollars by date and mint, at least among circulating (non-proof) issues. Even the 1893-S, which is definitely scarcer than the 1889-CC (and better referred to as the "king" or "key date" among coins made for circulation), has a likely surviving population of over ten thousand pieces.  Some dates and mints, including the 1889-CC and the 1893-S but also including the 1884-S, the 1892-S and the 1901, to name some, could legitimately be called "rare" in higher mint state grades, but they are always available in quantity in circulated and sometimes in lower mint state grades. Morgan dollars sell for high prices due to high demand, which is at least partly fueled by mass marketer hype and widespread ignorance about how common they really are. If I were a new collector, I would rather spend my money on less popular coins that are truly rare (such as the AU 1871 silver three cent piece I bought today) than on any Morgan dollar at current prices.   

[madyvoz]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:51 PM, Sandon said:

   The availability of specific issues of Morgan dollars in various grades usually has nothing to do with their original mintage figures. Some dates with relatively low mintages such as the 1885-CC (228,000) and the 1899 (330,000) had large quantities preserved unissued in Treasury vaults as backing for currency (Silver Certificates) until as late as 1964. Others with relatively high mintages such as the 1886-O (10,710,000) and the 1901 (6,962,000) are relatively scarce today in any uncirculated or higher circulated grade, presumably because most of the stored portions of their mintages were melted down as a result of the Pittman Act of 1918, and surviving coins are mostly more worn examples from those that had previously been placed in circulation. Of the original 228,000 1885-CC dollars minted, 148,285 (approximately 65% of the original mintage) were still held by the Treasury in March 1964 and were subsequently sold to the public in the GSA sales of 1972-80, and some additional 1,000-coin uncirculated bags had reportedly been released and obtained by coin dealers during the 1940s and 50s.

   In contrast the Treasury had only one uncirculated 1889-CC dollar to offer in the GSA sales. Reportedly, some 1,000-coin bags of uncirculated 1889-CCs were released over the decades before 1964, and there are certainly tens of thousands of circulated coins in existence, as indicated by the NGC Census and the PCGS Population Report. Interestingly, the NGC Census shows about 6,200 coins awarded various numerical grades and 23,328 pieces given "Details" grades, indicating that many 1889-CCs have been "cleaned" or otherwise abused in a misguided effort to make them appear to be a higher grade. (The PCGS Population Report shows nearly ten thousand 1889-CCs numerically graded but does not report a "Details" population, which also likely includes many thousands of pieces. Some of the reported population consists of resubmissions of the same coin, but there are also coins certified by other services and uncertified pieces like mine.) 

   There are no "rare" Morgan dollars by date and mint, at least among circulating (non-proof) issues. Even the 1893-S, which is definitely scarcer than the 1889-CC (and better referred to as the "king" or "key date" among coins made for circulation), has a likely surviving population of over ten thousand pieces.  Some dates and mints, including the 1889-CC and the 1893-S but also including the 1884-S, the 1892-S and the 1901, to name some, could legitimately be called "rare" in higher mint state grades, but they are always available in quantity in circulated and sometimes in lower mint state grades. Morgan dollars sell for high prices due to high demand, which is at least partly fueled by mass marketer hype and widespread ignorance about how common they really are. If I were a new collector, I would rather spend my money on less popular coins that are truly rare (such as the AU 1871 silver three cent piece I bought today) than on any Morgan dollar at current prices.   

So where can I find some rare ones

[EagleRJO]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:51 PM, Sandon said:

Morgan dollars sell for high prices due to high demand, which is at least partly fueled by mass marketer hype and widespread ignorance about how common they really are  

On 8/23/2023 at 4:51 PM, Sandon said:

There are no "rare" Morgan dollars by date and mint, at least among circulating (non-proof) issues. Even the 1893-S, which is definitely scarcer than the 1889-CC (and better referred to as the "king" or "key date" among coins made for circulation), has a likely surviving population of over ten thousand pieces.  

I agree a lot of the Morgans, particularly the CC marks, are over hyped, which I encountered assembling a complete 105 coin circulated Morgan set.

Particularly the 1893-S which I agree would be the "king" or "key date" among the circulated Morgans, and that one is really a thorn in my side for the set with a target XF or better which I might just end up skipping.  Even finding reasonably priced Morgans in VF or XF grades for some of them, like a few Carson City issues including the 1889-CC, turned out to be a task that will take a while.

Also agreed that with mintage numbers there are always exceptions, but still used as an indicator as it's really not known what was melted and what is still out there in hoards to be discovered.  Every once in a while a big stash of Morgans is discovered, like the more recent NY Bank and Great Southern hoards.

And look at what happened with the 1903-O Morgans, that had a higher mintage but very low availability or estimated number of "survivors", which was formally the "king" until a stash of them was discovered.  Imagine if you dropped a boatload of cash on one before the discovery, and them BAM you just have a somewhat better than average value Morgan at a monumental loss.

So if I were looking for just one Carson City Morgan I would still stick with like an 1881-CC or 1885-CC due to the low mintage but more reasonable price due to the relative better availability in mint state grades.

Edited August 24, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:01 PM, madyvoz said:

So where can I find some rare ones

Look at auction sites like Great Collections or Heritage Auctions, and even eBay if you avoid the raw coins unless you really know what you are doing.

Some like @Coinbuf mention Collectors Corner, but I have never found a good deal on a Morgan with that site.  Maybe I have just been unlucky, so some others may chime in on that site.

[powermad5000]

On 8/22/2023 at 7:51 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I was just wanting due to rarity and more detail compared to worn ones and possible cheaper cost compared to better condition

I understand this completely. Thank you for bringing clarity to your opening of this thread.

I, too, am still considering a rather impaired 1811 Half Cent based upon the same criteria. Most are environmentally damaged or corroded, so I still have my eye on one because of the details grade level and much of the details are intact despite the corrosion. It is one of those situations where with the 64,000 roughly minted and questionable amount of those having survived to this date, that I would rather have one impaired with a good amount of details than one that is base details but unimpaired. My collecting keeps me in the MS of things, but there are key dates in many series that I will never be able to afford in MS price ranges, so I will accept lesser grades of those. But for a series such as the 1811 Half Cent, it seems to me nearly 95% of all offerings of ones have some sort of impairment so I will look for the highest level of details while accepting such impairment.

[RWB]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:27 AM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

It is a 1889 CC Cleaned AU details.

It's EF, and resembles coins that have been in a fire or lived in West Virginia coal country too long. I agree with the others about its lack of desirability. Why spend $700+ for a coin you don't seem to like?

[Coinbuf]

On 8/23/2023 at 3:01 PM, madyvoz said:

So where can I find some rare ones

Aside from a few true proof examples there are no truly rare Morgan dollars, you can find expensive (and inexpensive) examples just about everywhere.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:11 PM, RWB said:

It's EF

Just posting what was on the holder.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:11 PM, RWB said:

It's EF ...

On 8/23/2023 at 10:43 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

Just posting what was on the holder [AU Details]

Roger can be pretty critical of coins, so you could just take what he says and go up one grade. 

I agree with the AU Details.  No wear to the cap, cotton leaves, cotton blossoms, or hair on the obverse and no wear to the eagles head, neck or breast on the reverse.

[RWB]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:03 PM, EagleRJO said:

Roger can be pretty critical of coins, so you could just take what he says and go up one grade. 

I agree with the AU Details.  No wear to the cap, cotton leaves, cotton blossoms, or hair on the obverse and no wear to the eagles head, neck or breast on the reverse.

Well, yes, I am stringent about coin grading and do not tolerate grade inflation or calling circulated coins "MS," and so forth. 

On the OP's coin there is noticeable abrasion on both sides and at a more than "barely noticeable" level (which is the classic definition of AU). The wear is obscured by dark tarnish and remnants of cleaning. (If one copies the OP's photo and manipulates tone and contrast, the wear becomes easier to detect.)

 

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:03 PM, EagleRJO said:

Roger can be pretty critical of coins, so you could just take what he says and go up one grade. 

I agree with the AU Details.  No wear to the cap, cotton leaves, cotton blossoms, or hair on the obverse and no wear to the eagles head, neck or breast on the reverse.

Lol don't shoot the messenger I'm just going by what people more qualified then me are labeling.

No worries. Nothing wrong with being critical or having an opinion but constructive criticism and facts are better

If I got upset at every comment or person I came across what good what that do me or anyone else for that matter. Life's too short and there are much bigger things to worry about. Also people that don't like people's comments move on.

I'm sure @RWB must have some nice coins if he is critical and particular in what he collects.

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:24 PM, RWB said:

Well, yes, I am stringent about coin grading and do not tolerate grade inflation or calling circulated coins "MS," and so forth. 

On the OP's coin there is noticeable abrasion on both sides and at a more than "barely noticeable" level (which is the classic definition of AU). The wear is obscured by dark tarnish and remnants of cleaning. (If one copies the OP's photo and manipulates tone and contrast, the wear becomes easier to detect.)

 

I agree here are the hi-res shots or whatever the proper term is for the photos from PCGS.

[RWB]

Those are some of the most unnatural coin photos I've seen since I last looked at ebay....  Doesn't PCGS make photos before encapsulation?

Here's something a little more realistic..... However, after looking more closely, the coin might be better than my first impression. There's light wear and luster disturbance, yet it might be visually better in-hand.

RE: My coin collection. It's almost non-existent. I buy for research, then dispose of when the work is done. Can't afford to hold. A nice Saudi 1-sovereign gold disc has been posted here and on PCGS.

Edited August 25, 2023 by RWB

[powermad5000]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:03 PM, EagleRJO said:

cotton blossoms

I believe they are technically called cotton bolls, no?

[EagleRJO]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:09 PM, powermad5000 said:

I believe they are technically called cotton bolls, no?

Maybe we need a botanist to chime in, but I think they are interchangeable with "bolls" a more technically correct term relative to a cotton plant, and "blossom" a more general laypersons description of that after it blooms, or something along those lines.

For the Morgans "bolls" is what the ANA grading standard refers to them as, but the TPG's and VAM World refer to them as "blossoms", which I also think what the average person would call them, so I usually go with that.

VAM World - Anatomy of the Morgan Dollar

On 8/24/2023 at 5:35 PM, NeverEnoughCoins09 said:

I agree here are the hi-res shots or whatever the proper term is for the photos from PCGS.

Those are horrible pics of that coin, although they do show the limited wear a little better.  Are those really the cert pics from the PCG$ site?

Edited August 26, 2023 by EagleRJO

[NeverEnoughCoins09]

On 8/25/2023 at 2:22 AM, EagleRJO said:

I think they are interchangeable, and bolls is what the ANA grading standard refers to them as, but most everyone else including the TPG's and VAM World refer to them as blossoms so I usually go with that.

VAM World - Anatomy of the Morgan Dollar

Those are horrible pics of that coin, although they do show the limited wear a little better.  Are those really the cert pics from the PCG$ site?

Yes those are the cert pics that are brought up when you verify the coin.