ANACS / Old NGC slabs 1 1

[Ohnoimbroke]

Why does ANACS & old NGC holders go for cheaper price ? Does ANACS over grade ? What about the old NGC holders go way cheaper ? Thankx

[ldhair]

It's very possible it's the coin in the holder.

[Coinbuf]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:23 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Why does ANACS & old NGC holders go for cheaper price ? Does ANACS over grade ? What about the old NGC holders go way cheaper ? Thankx

It would help if you could give some examples of what you are seeing.   Newer ANACS holdered coins are often not well respected in the market so those do often sell for less than NGC or PCGS graded coins.   As a general rule the pecking order goes:  PCGS with CAC, NGC with CAC, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and lastly ICG.   You can find examples that contradict my list order but as an overall of the market that is what you will generally see.

Very old ANACS holders, prior to the AMOS press ownership, are often sought out by some collectors as are the very early generations of NGC holders.   ANACS photograde, and ANA holders and NGC Gen 1, 2, and 3 holders are often highly sought after and can bring significant premiums.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

If your thought is "it doesn't matter, all services are the same", you've been misled. One thing I learned at Pittsburgh: the new CAC slab is a cheap-feeling piece of junk. Far less substantial than NGC's (my favorite by far), or PCGS'.

Edited August 13, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

    If you develop grading skills yourself, you can evaluate the coin in the holder in accordance with your own educated judgment and tastes and make your own decision as to its grade and value to you without regard to which service graded it.

[Zebo]

On 8/13/2023 at 3:23 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Why does ANACS & old NGC holders go for cheaper price ? Does ANACS over grade ? What about the old NGC holders go way cheaper ? Thankx

Im not sure you have looked at enough of them or analyzed the coins within. There are many variables which you have not stated - so there can be no reasonable responses. What are you basing your observations on? Sample size, specific examples are needed.

[zadok]

On 8/13/2023 at 3:32 PM, Coinbuf said:

It would help if you could give some examples of what you are seeing.   Newer ANACS holdered coins are often not well respected in the market so those do often sell for less than NGC or PCGS graded coins.   As a general rule the pecking order goes:  PCGS with CAC, NGC with CAC, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and lastly ICG.   You can find examples that contradict my list order but as an overall of the market that is what you will generally see.

Very old ANACS holders, prior to the AMOS press ownership, are often sought out by some collectors as are the very early generations of NGC holders.   ANACS photograde, and ANA holders and NGC Gen 1, 2, and 3 holders are often highly sought after and can bring significant premiums.

...im not sure that ur pecking order stands up in all considerations, it often depends on whether u r talking bout world coins or US coins as to which is preferred, in many areas ngc n ngc cac r much better received in the market than pcgs or pcgs cac, especially in several areas of world coins, pcgs just doesnt have the experienced graders in certain areas that ngc has...conversely, pcgs has historically been the preferred grading source for most of the earlier US series but not all, there r certain US series that ngc out performs pcgs...i personally almost always cross my high dollar foreign coins to ngc rather than retain the pcgs holders many dont cross at the same grades, ngc is more restrictive on foreign grading...of course the bottom line is always judge the coin n not the holder....

Edited August 14, 2023 by zadok
spelling

[VKurtB]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:02 AM, zadok said:

...im not sure that ur pecking order stands up in all considerations, it often depends on whether u r talking bout world coins or US coins as to which is preferred, in many areas ngc n ngc cac r much better received in the market than pcgs or pcgs cac, especially in several areas of world coins, pcgs just doesnt have the experienced graders in certain areas that ngc has...conversely, pcgs has historically been the preferred grading source for most of the earlier US series but not all, there r certain US series that ngc out performs pcgs...i personally almost always cross my high dollar foreign coins to ngc rather than retain the pcgs holders many dont cross at the same grades, ngc is more restrictive on foreign grading...of course the bottom line is always judge the coin n not the holder....

The pecking order DOES NOT STAND UP AT ALL. Everything depends on the particular coin series. And for ancients and world coins, NGC is without peer. The REAL question is whether to have non-U.S. material graded at all. Most countries don't care for USA grading companies at all.

[zadok]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:15 AM, VKurtB said:

The pecking order DOES NOT STAND UP AT ALL. Everything depends on the particular coin series. And for ancients and world coins, NGC is without peer. The REAL question is whether to have non-U.S. material graded at all. Most countries don't care for USA grading companies at all.

...agree ngc top dog on ancients...re world coins, i dont really care what collectors in other counties care bout, i want mine certified for my reasons plus my coins for most part wont be sold in the foreign market...US remains king for top prices on world n US....

[Coinbuf]

On 8/14/2023 at 6:02 AM, zadok said:

...im not sure that ur pecking order stands up in all considerations, it often depends on whether u r talking bout world coins or US coins as to which is preferred, in many areas ngc n ngc cac r much better received in the market than pcgs or pcgs cac, especially in several areas of world coins, pcgs just doesnt have the experienced graders in certain areas that ngc has...conversely, pcgs has historically been the preferred grading source for most of the earlier US series but not all, there r certain US series that ngc out performs pcgs...i personally almost always cross my high dollar foreign coins to ngc rather than retain the pcgs holders many dont cross at the same grades, ngc is more restrictive on foreign grading...of course the bottom line is always judge the coin n not the holder....

Yes you are correct when talking about world and foreign coins, however, I only collect US so that coinage is not the part of the market I am referencing in my reply.   And as I said anyone can easily find exceptions to the order I posted, but as an overall US market (note the emphasis on overall) what I posted is correct at this point in time and especially true at the pointy end of the grade spectrum.

I am not debating which TPG is better, tighter, higher sales volume, or preferred, those areas are more about personal bias.    I'm talking about the order in which these TPGs perform when looking at dollar sales for same grade coins.    That can be affected by many market forces, not the least of which is registry participants.   Notice that I left CACG out as it is too new to have any real idea just how or where the market will value that TPG currently.   My personal guess is that CACG could in a few years become the US market leader (again when using same grade sales), but time will tell on that.

Again, anyone can cherry pick one or even several examples that are contrary to my order, but the US market data proves me correct.

[zadok]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:46 PM, Coinbuf said:

Yes you are correct when talking about world and foreign coins, however, I only collect US so that coinage is not the part of the market I am referencing in my reply.   And as I said anyone can easily find exceptions to the order I posted, but as an overall US market (note the emphasis on overall) what I posted is correct at this point in time and especially true at the pointy end of the grade spectrum.

I am not debating which TPG is better, tighter, higher sales volume, or preferred, those areas are more about personal bias.    I'm talking about the order in which these TPGs perform when looking at dollar sales for same grade coins.    That can be affected by many market forces, not the least of which is registry participants.   Notice that I left CACG out as it is too new to have any real idea just how or where the market will value that TPG currently.   My personal guess is that CACG could in a few years become the US market leader (again when using same grade sales), but time will tell on that.

Again, anyone can cherry pick one or even several examples that are contrary to my order, but the US market data proves me correct.

...i dont think it will take cacg a few years, if u notice pcgs n ngc r already shifting some of their policies because of cacg's entry into the grading market, the big dollars n the big auctions r going to go where the big collectors go n they r going to go with the more restrictive n tighter grading, im expecting massive attempts to cross over in near future n many unhappy collectors when they discover most of their tpg coins wont cross at current grades n will drop 1 to 2 grades...ive already seen the results of several cross overs n its going to be eye-opening...but as to current rankings yes in ur areas pcgs is still the preferred early high end US tpg but that is predicated based on the dealers preferences n therefore the collectors follow...i personally prefer ngc but thats my preference...the biggest issue to me for all of the grading services is consistency n it is lacking....

[Hoghead515]

 

On 8/14/2023 at 7:31 PM, zadok said:

...the biggest issue to me for all of the grading services is consistency n it is lacking....

A few days ago I had all my Washington quarters out looking at them very closely. I wanted to study them closely and see how they differ from each other in their grades. They are all very inconsistent on the grades as a whole. I got ms 67's that are no where near as nice as ms66's. Same with ms65's in better shape than ms66's. Some look overgraded and some look undergraded. I noticed this about both major TPG services. I know its just an opinion but I figured this would be a good time to share my observations while were on the topic. This was from looking at 63 different certified Washington quarters. I know that many are bound to have some inconsistencies but there were more than I figured. Probably 90% of them are graded ms66. Most are pretty close to what my opinion of a ms 66 should be. But some have several marks on them and dont look near as problem free as some of my ms65s. However Im not as qualified to grade as the ones who chose those grades but looking at them all at the same time Ive spotted several inconsistencies in them. They probably took factors in that Im not seeing when they decided on those grades but it suprised me how much they differ. I was mostly looking at bag marks and strike strength. I been trying to study up on how to grade to help myself buy raw album coins. 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/13/2023 at 3:23 PM, Ohnoimbroke said:

Why does ANACS & old NGC holders go for cheaper price ?

As mentioned, do you have some examples of these older holders going for less?

Perhaps a few were just an anomaly or they were inferior coins, as there is a common misconception some have that ALL coins in older holders are undergraded, so for the same grade label they typically actually go for more.

I have been working on a collection of Morgans and older half dollars, where I am still missing a handful of Morgans and quite alot of the half dollars.  So for these, as well as some other coins that interest me, I watch prices closely and bid at auctions.

I don't even bother with coins in say an early generation NGC holder any more, because even if the coin is accurately graded they still go for more.  Even for circulated coins where standards really haven't changed that much, coins in older holders typically go for more just because of the misconception.

Edited August 15, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:31 PM, zadok said:

...i dont think it will take cacg a few years, if u notice pcgs n ngc r already shifting some of their policies because of cacg's entry into the grading market, the big dollars n the big auctions r going to go where the big collectors go n they r going to go with the more restrictive n tighter grading, im expecting massive attempts to cross over in near future n many unhappy collectors when they discover most of their tpg coins wont cross at current grades n will drop 1 to 2 grades...ive already seen the results of several cross overs n its going to be eye-opening...but as to current rankings yes in ur areas pcgs is still the preferred early high end US tpg but that is predicated based on the dealers preferences n therefore the collectors follow...i personally prefer ngc but thats my preference...the biggest issue to me for all of the grading services is consistency n it is lacking....

It is going to take awhile for CACG to have enough graded coins in the market to have a decent sample size.   Additionally, it will take time for the euphoria or honeymoon phase to wane before we will really get a true sense of how the market will view CACG.   You may well be right, but I think that two years is a reasonable window for all those factors to shake out.

I'm the odd duck as the plastic is both important and at the same time not important.   When I am looking at a coin to add to my old holder collection the holder is very important, including (but not limited to) the condition, generation, and the coin.   But when buying a coin for one of my sets the brand of plastic is the last thing I care about, ACG, ANACS, PCI, ICG, NGC, PCGS, and more I have them all somewhere in my collection.   On occasion both worlds collide and I have the opportunity to add to a set with a holder that is desirable to me, a win win.

[ldhair]

I won't let the brand of the slab stop me from buying a coin I really want. What I grade it and the price is all that matters. When the day comes to sell, there is a good chance I will crack it out and have it graded by NGC or PCGS. 

[Conder101]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, zadok said:

..agree ngc top dog on ancients.

This is true, but mostly because for the most part no one else wants to really fool with them.  Also remember that although NGC will slab ancients, they do NOT guarantee the authenticity on ancient coins that they slab.  (at least the last time I looked at their guarantee.)

Edited September 4, 2023 by Conder101

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/13/2023 at 5:40 PM, VKurtB said:

If your thought is "it doesn't matter, all services are the same", you've been misled. One thing I learned at Pittsburgh: the new CAC slab is a cheap-feeling piece of junk. Far less substantial than NGC's (my favorite by far), or PCGS'.

Anybody got a pic of one of the new CAC-slabbed coins ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:46 PM, Coinbuf said:

My personal guess is that CACG could in a few years become the US market leader (again when using same grade sales), but time will tell on that.

For a variety of reasons, especially after about 2004 (when market grading > technical grading)....PCGS seemed to have the cache with trophy coins and/or trophy collectors.  PCGS (with or without CAC) became the gold standard for U.S. coins (NGC somehow gathered the trophy for foreign/world coins).

I personally think the gap has closed somewhat, but I'd like to hear from actual buyers like our friend EC and/or bigtime dealers like LS from Legends to hear their thoughts.  Both put their $$$ where their mouths are. 

[powermad5000]

On 8/14/2023 at 7:11 PM, Hoghead515 said:

They probably took factors in that Im not seeing when they decided on those grades

One of the most overlooked factors is the rim and edges. A reed or two could have taken a hit on the edge that can lower a grade even though the rest of the coin looks as though it should have graded higher.

[VKurtB]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:32 PM, Conder101 said:

This is true, but mostly because for the most part no one else wants to really fool with them.  Also remember that although NGC will slab ancients, they do NOT guarantee the authenticity on ancient coins that they slab.  (at least the last time I looked at their guarantee.)

Still true. 

[Crawtomatic]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Anybody got a pic of one of the new CAC-slabbed coins ?

I must admit I've been away for a bit, trying to catch up now and somehow missed an announcement of CAC grading.  If you come across a link please let me know. Thanks.

[VKurtB]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:00 PM, Crawtomatic said:

I must admit I've been away for a bit, trying to catch up now and somehow missed an announcement of CAC grading.  If you come across a link please let me know. Thanks.

I held a CACG slab in my grubby little fingers at the Pittsburgh ANA show. The service will likely be top-notch, beyond peer. But the slab itself? Worse than "meh".

[Sandon]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:00 PM, Crawtomatic said:

I must admit I've been away for a bit, trying to catch up now and somehow missed an announcement of CAC grading.  If you come across a link please let me know. Thanks.

   Here is a link to the pertinent website: https://www.cacgrading.com/

[Crawtomatic]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:22 PM, VKurtB said:

I held a CACG slab in my grubby little fingers at the Pittsburgh ANA show. The service will likely be top-notch, beyond peer. But the slab itself? Worse than "meh".

So the site @Sandonlinked to provides a boast that less than half of coins submitted for stickering receive the sticker.  And the goal is to apply the same stringent standards to the holdering itself.  Does this mean they're only going to holder coins with a certain level of eye appeal?  Or just that the grading will be more on par with the standards from years ago when Albanese worked on the grading floor.  Maybe something before "market standards" started influencing numerical grade?

p.s. Sorry to hijack a thread.  But to the original poster, what I always noticed was that oldest ANACS holders have more respect than any other generation and are generally seen as good crossover candidates.  Not sure the consensus on older NGC holders as there's been so many.  And a really good thread detailing that @Conder101 put together that I still reference.  I think it may depend on the generation, but I've seen some referred to as undergraded in comparison to today's standards.