Mechanical Doubling or true DDR? 1 1

[BBrown75]

Hey all! I’m a long time casual collector, and recently started rol searching quarters. I’m not really good at detecting the difference between mechanical doubling and a real doubled die. That being said, I was hoping to get help determining the verdict On this 2021 Crossing the Delaware quarter reverse on “United States Of America”. Please let me know what you think!

Brandon

 

 

 

[ThommyCoiny]

Hi BBrown75! I'm not an expert in this kind of detecting,
but I bet a good place to start would be by comparing it to images of known examples of doubled dies in reference books*

[EagleRJO]

It does look like MD on the surface.  The attached may help looking at the coin in-hand, and there are some additional resources on doubling in the sticky topic at the forum top.

Note that it is very unlikely that modern coins have true die or hub doubling since in the mid to late 1990's the US mint switched to a single squeeze process to produce master dies.  This significantly limits true doubling of the dies.

https://doubleddie.com/58222.html

Edited May 1, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    Welcome to the NGC chat board.

    Please post clear, cropped photos of each entire side of a coin about which you have a question, as well as any pertinent closeups. While the photos you have posted are somewhat fuzzy, it is clear that the faint, shallow secondary image of some of the lettering is common "shelf-like" strike doubling, a.k.a. machine or mechanical doubling, not die doubling.  Die doubling creates a much crisper, clearer and less shallow secondary image, with "notching" between the junctions of the primary and secondary images, of which the "Redbook" variety 1972 doubled die obverse cent is a good example:

   While more minor doubled dies may have a narrower "spread" between the two images and involve doubling on fewer letters, numbers or other design features, they are always clearer, crisper and less shallow than the faint secondary image on your coin. Additionally, please note that in recent years the mint has used a "single squeeze" method to manufacture dies, which has greatly reduced the incidence of doubled dies, especially significant ones.

[Coinbuf]

Obvious machine doubling from what I see in the photos.   Please don't take this as harsh and I'm not judging you, but what is the point of searching rolls if you cannot identify what you see or "find".

[BBrown75]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:31 PM, Coinbuf said:

Obvious machine doubling from what I see in the photos.   Please don't take this as harsh and I'm not judging you, but what is the point of searching rolls if you cannot identify what you see or "find".

I mainly look for die chips and other more obvious “errors” and this just happened to look different so I figured I’d ask since the difference between HD and MD aren’t my strong point

 

[BBrown75]

Thanks for the help guys. I was thinking it was MD since I never find anything “good” in my rol searches

[Jason Abshier]

@BBrown75 I’m not picking you out so don’t take it wrong …you been collecting casually … But I often wonder what sparks a newer collectors trying to get into our coin collecting hobby why they automatically start off trying to spot error coins I been noticing it a lot lately on here? Error coins are more for someone who been in hobby for long time advance collector who researches and reads up a lot books on error error coins they basically devote a lot of their time collecting error coins. 

Now a days with modern technology and better machinery at the mint the errors are very very minor not even worth mentioning… I don’t know if new collectors are getting wrong message from some YouTube videos made by a guy who has no knowledge about our numismatic collecting hobby making up a bunch wacky misinformation and claims that error coins are pulling in a lot money and so on I’ve heard these rumors I don’t watch YouTube about coin collecting …

I myself rarely dabbled into error coins I never found them that fascinated but I’ve read up on it enough to know what it’s somewhat about … Our hobby not about getting rich off error coins I think the wrong message is being spread to newer collectors our hobby is more of passion sometimes turns into a obsession it’s about collecting and preserving and gaining knowledge and for some of us we spend far far far more money acquiring coins for our collection than we gain back 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[J P M]

The problem is all the realty rare coins have not been found,(or so they say ). Because there is no proof of where or how many there were or are, that is what keeps it going. Like Bigfoot or AREA 51. That 14 D the missing D on the 22  a 1943 copper maybe a 55 DD or more of that 1972 like Sandons and all you have to do is go through your pocket change and do some roll hunting and you   ( may )    find one of these coins and make a lot of money. That is not a lie it is a fact but the odds are you will not in your lifetime find one of these rare coins. Yes there are lots of coins that have made money at auctions but can you still find them in pocket change, IMO not likely .I still love to roll hunt and always will. I find neat stuff, some old Wheaties and Silver but not the money makers and most of us never will. This was the last fun coin I found. I still have to send it out for verification some day. I and some others think it is a Ragged Fisher. If you love it Keep Hunting just don't expect to get rich quick.   

[Jason Abshier]

@J P M whatever makes someone happy I have no problems with that … I been just wondering what all hype is about double die stuff when mostly it’s just die deterioration which is pretty common … I mean books and articles been written on error coins , seems like folks are quick to take on here post pictures expect the answers (sometimes little disappointed or mad they don’t have what they assumed they had) … In my days there was some tough love when I had a question about a coin series or so on ! I used get answer like READ the BOOKS and learn !!! Rightfully so they were right gotta do your homework before asking for easy answers all time… I was at coin show years ago the table next to the table I was looking at some Buffalo nickels I over heard a dealer talking to collector or another dealer I’m not sure he had a lot error coins on his table he said something like “if you can’t see it with naked eye or under a 5x loupe” it ain’t worth anything ! I assume he was talking about error coin of some sort 

on another note your 82’ Lincoln cent is a hard call if it’s a planchet error or if that post mint damage … when I look at observe at word liberty it looks like it was struck sharply in place at one time like a normal Lincoln cent should look like in that area now it’s kinda rolled over into the split area leads me to believe it was post mint damage also reverse of the coin the split looks a little curled up during striking under pressure you’d think the pressure would of flatten it somewhat even with the surface of the coin? … but again I’m no expert at this error stuff like a TPG that looks at thousands and thousands of coins more than I ever look at in my lifetime 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[BBrown75]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:18 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@BBrown75 I’m not picking you out so don’t take it wrong …you been collecting casually … But I often wonder what sparks a newer collectors trying to get into our coin collecting hobby why they automatically start off trying to spot error coins I been noticing it a lot lately on here? Error coins are more for someone who been in hobby for long time advance collector who researches and reads up a lot books on error error coins they basically devote a lot of their time collecting error coins. 

Now a days with modern technology and better machinery at the mint the errors are very very minor not even worth mentioning… I don’t know if new collectors are getting wrong message from some YouTube videos made by a guy who has no knowledge about our numismatic collecting hobby making up a bunch wacky misinformation and claims that error coins are pulling in a lot money and so on I’ve heard these rumors I don’t watch YouTube about coin collecting …

I myself rarely dabbled into error coins I never found them that fascinated but I’ve read up on it enough to know what it’s somewhat about … Our hobby not about getting rich off error coins I think the wrong message is being spread to newer collectors our hobby is more of passion sometimes turns into a obsession it’s about collecting and preserving and gaining knowledge and for some of us we spend far far far more money acquiring coins for our collection than we gain back 

It may not be your intention, but if I’m being honest, your question, and the rest of your post come off very condescending and unwelcoming to “newbie’s” wanting information. You may reconsider how you respond to questions here, or maybe remember back when there were new aspects of the hobby that you had to learn. I am FAR from a new collector. I’ve been collecting for 35+ years, and only recently started hearing about the errors in the newer quarters, and have always been fascinated with mint errors, which is why I said I was “casually” roll searching and looking to learn about them. My confusion between picking out DD vs. MD. Is simply because as some pointed out, in modern coins, DD is rare and I wanted to clarify what I was seeing was MD, which is what I thought I had. Your tendencies to use the term “our” hobby seems very unwelcoming in this context and I think perhaps it may just be your wording but this is the kind of response that keeps younger or newer collectors from coming here and asking questions to gain the knowledge you think you hold over them.

[Jason Abshier]

@BBrown75 like I said I wasn’t singling you out you made a Great post .. apparently on daily basic this same type of doubling is talked on daily basic here new collectors posting on here instead of reading old post on this subject such as yours is a good explanation and example worth reading, the post a picture of what they believe is doubling we give a response it’s not answer they want to hear we never see or hear from them again  … instead a lot of them come on here wants an easy answer take no mind to even learn what the hobby is really about …

I may have sounded blunt or little conservative about the subject I won’t apologize for that and I’m not the only member on here that talk like that … I mean no offense to anyone when I say “OUR” Hobby that’s “ALL” of us me, you , everyone on this forums From beginners , Novice to advance collectors … it’s is indeed Our hobby we love to do 

[BBrown75]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:14 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@BBrown75 like I said I wasn’t singling you out you made a Great post .. apparently on daily basic this same type of doubling is talked on daily basic here new collectors posting on here instead of reading old post on this subject such as yours is a good explanation and example worth reading, the post a picture of what they believe is doubling we give a response it’s not answer they want to hear we never see or hear from them again  … instead a lot of them come on here wants an easy answer take no mind to even learn what the hobby is really about …

I may have sounded blunt or little conservative about the subject I won’t apologize for that and I’m not the only member on here that talk like that … I mean no offense to anyone when I say “OUR” Hobby that’s “ALL” of us me, you , everyone on this forums From beginners , Novice to advance collectors … it’s is indeed Our hobby we love to do 

I understand, but if you’re going to be a representative of the hobby by answering questions for people, it’s not all about what you say but how you say it. Like I said, your tone of your response and your statements about the reasons why new collectors start out looking for these errors, wanting to get rich, etc….well why should their intentions matter to you? If it continues to get new collectors interested in the hobby, who cares what their intentions are! Maybe if newbies asking questions to gain knowledge about certain aspects of the hobby bothers you in some way, you shouldn’t be here commenting on their posts?

[Jason Abshier]

@BBrown75 fair enough I accepted and agreed to your statement . I wish you well and happy collecting 

[Coinbuf]

On 4/28/2023 at 2:37 PM, BBrown75 said:

I mainly look for die chips and other more obvious “errors” and this just happened to look different so I figured I’d ask since the difference between HD and MD aren’t my strong point

 

Ok thats cool, in case you are not aware of the site, error-ref.com has lots of great information about real and the not so real errors.   Might help you in identifying something you come across in the future.

Error-ref

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I have made this same post in almost the same language many times on this forum (as I buy a lot of coins on eBay and see it on there constantly and it is quite annoying as it is misused) so I will post it again as a reference for you in the future of your collecting. I apologize if it sounds blunt, but I am trying to expand your knowledge as you are new to this great hobby.

Die cracks, die chips, cuds, DDO, DDR, RPM, and RPD are NOT errors! They are varieties!

While some are recognized and attributed varieties, most are not and are just a part of the normal minting process and well within the tolerances set by the Mint. Of those that are attributed, only some have substantial values and most have modest to little extra values.

While roll hunting can feel exciting as you don't know what you are going to find, I would like to pass along to you that there is basically no roll that is "unsearched" unless it is sealed in US Treasury paper. What that means is someone before you went through all the coins in that roll and cherrypicked the quality coins or the more rare pieces. There are a lot of sellers on eBay selling "unsearched" rolls, but that in reality is not possible. They were searched and cherrypicked and put back into paper rolls. I myself tried to buy some rolls and met with a lot of disappointment and have since stopped wasting my money on doing so.

I am only passing this information along to you because I have learned this in my 45+ years of coin collecting and having started more serious high end collecting in the last ten years. It has been educational and enhancing for me. As you stated above, sure, we ALL collect in our own way. Some of us are Morgan guys, others are nickel nuts, Roosy fans, copper heads, and everything in between. I just wanted to pass that along about roll hunting not to tell you not to do it, but to do it wisely and with proper intent.

 

 

 

[BBrown75]

Hey thanks for the response. I think there was a lot of misunderstanding in my post. I am NOT a newbie collector. I simply haven’t ever found any doubled dies in my collecting past, and when I saw this coin (I’m just trying to put together a set of the quarters and looking for neat “varieties” thst catch my eye). I was unsure what I had.  I’m not looking to get rich off the hobby. I do it for my own enjoyment, and to keep myself from going bonkers from boredom lol. I have collected for 35+ years, and only recently gotten pretty seriously into putting together a circulated seated dime collection (currently #6 with only 11 coins!) and it sparked my interest in roll searching and trying to put together roll searched-only sets of cents, nickels and quarters. Just as a challenge to see how many holes I can fill this way. In the past I’ve collected a bit of everything, with no real focus. THIS cost me a lot of wasted time and money. I’m now trying to put together that seated dime set in as nice of condition as I can afford. Being disabled and on a limited budget, it’s going to be a slow but rewarding project I’m sure. I appreciate everyone commenting, even those I disagree with in certain aspects. Thank you all for the advice.

Brandon 

Edited April 30, 2023 by BBrown75

[J P M]

On 4/30/2023 at 4:23 PM, BBrown75 said:

Hey thanks for the response. I think there was a lot of misunderstanding in my post. I am NOT a newbie collector. I simply haven’t ever found any doubled dies in my collecting past, and when I saw this coin (I’m just trying to put together a set of the quarters and looking for neat “varieties” thst catch my eye). I was unsure what I had.  I’m not looking to get rich off the hobby. I do it for my own enjoyment, and to keep myself from going bonkers from boredom lol. I have collected for 35+ years, and only recently gotten pretty seriously into putting together a circulated seated dime collection (currently #6 with only 11 coins!) and it sparked my interest in roll searching and trying to put together roll searched-only sets of cents, nickels and quarters. Just as a challenge to see how many holes I can fill this way. In the past I’ve collected a bit of everything, with no real focus. THIS cost me a lot of wasted time and money. I’m now trying to put together that seated dime set in as nice of condition as I can afford. Being disabled and on a limited budget, it’s going to be a slow but rewarding project I’m sure. I appreciate everyone commenting, even those I disagree with in certain aspects. Thank you all for the advice.

Brandon 

Thanks for posting some background BBrown. We never know who may stop in and we try to help when we can. Sometimes it is easier to explain things than others  and DD seams to be the biggest one. So welcome to the forum. 

[powermad5000]

I like the backstory @BBrown75! That will be a very cool set when you get it completed. I wish you the best in putting it together! I have a couple seated liberty dimes but so far none of a solid numerical grade. I did come upon a Top 100 and despite it being cleaned and "bent" (I never did see a bend in it), it is worn but to me one not too common as you don't see it on dealers tables.

[VKurtB]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:38 PM, BBrown75 said:

Thanks for the help guys. I was thinking it was MD since I never find anything “good” in my rol searches

Nor does anyone else, which brings up the question of why people do it. True doubled dies are nearly obsolete due to improved die making technology. YouTube video makers have rotted people’s minds with pure BS. Some people even do it here. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by VKurtB

[BBrown75]

On 5/3/2023 at 6:11 PM, VKurtB said:

Nor does anyone else, which brings up the question of why people do it. True doubled dies are nearly obsolete due to improved die making technology. YouTube video makers have rotted people’s minds with pure BS. Some people even do it here. 

I do toll searches (mostly nickels and Pennies to see how many years I can pull out of rolls to complete a set, just for the challenge. I’m not necessarily looking for errors/varieties but if I do it’s just a bonus. My very first nickel box from the local bank I found 2 silver war nickels which I thought was pretty cool. I’ve been collecting long enough to know that finding anything “rare” in circulation is about 0.01%. What I don’t understand is why it bothers some people how others choose to spend their time enjoying certain aspects of the coin collecting hobby,

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:13 AM, BBrown75 said:

What I don’t understand is why it bothers some people how others choose to spend their time enjoying certain aspects of the coin collecting hobby,

@BBrown75 I’m not here to pick your bone if you enjoy roll searching and collecting what makes you happy so be it my coin collecting brother …I have nothing against you  

how can I say it better ? Collecting true error coins is probably the most difficult and misunderstood type of coin collecting… 

I wouldn’t say it totally bothers me if someone is asking about a coin with some type of common MD or again common DDD … when someone blows up a coin image with USB camera your going to see all kinds of wacky little imperfections on the coin it’s just what it is… however where the problem lies is there’s YouTube videos preaching about these so called “imperfections” on a coin newer collectors or simply folks out of pure ignorance are taking this information and using it to Con people or other novice collectors that they got some kind of Rare Double die or some rare die variety… I included a few pictures for proof what selling online and eBay , pretty sad they prey on our novice collectors like this but it happens everyday and it’s not a laughing matter. Some of us care more about this hobby than other will turn cheek other way not say anything … you may think we are being mean or just strict we aren’t ! … we are frustrated on daily basic sometimes of all  and misinformation that goes on in this hobby lately so called  “error” coins been the main Con trick in ripping off younger and novice collectors , we noticed the hype on here as well seems to be daily norm when someone is asking if they some kind of “error coin” when it’s not … We do more than you think we do on here 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[EagleRJO]

On 5/4/2023 at 6:33 AM, Jason Abshier said:

they prey on our novice collectors like this but it happens everyday and it’s not a laughing matter ... misinformation that goes on in this hobby lately so called  “error” coins been the main Con trick in ripping off younger and novice collectors

Raw coins with common Machine Doubling are all over sites like eBay and Etsy being misrepresented as "Doubled Die" coins listed for hundreds of dollars.  Buyer beware!

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:06 AM, EagleRJO said:

Raw coins with common Machine Doubling are all over sites like eBay and Etsy being misrepresented as "Doubled Die" coins listed for hundreds of dollars.  Buyer beware!

Some days, many days, most days lately it seems there are more scam artists online than legit collectors and dealers any more. I will NOT join the "do what you like" crowd as long as scammers have the volume they do. People are being taken by activities that provide ZERO value to the scammed individual or to the hobby at large. "Collect what and how you like" is a tacit invitation to flood the hobby with worthless junk. There IS A RIGHT AND WRONG WAY TO DO THIS! Sorry if that offends your "kum bay yah" mindset. It is meant to. There is a right way and a wrong way to do nearly EVERYTHING in this world. That is MY world view and has been for all 60 years I've poured into this field.

Edited May 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:13 AM, BBrown75 said:

What I don’t understand is why it bothers some people how others choose to spend their time enjoying certain aspects of the coin collecting hobby,

Let me state this directly. Useless pursuits flood this field with worthless junk that becomes somebody else's problem eventually. Every blue Whitman folder with circulated cents and Jeffersons becomes a net time and money suck for someone else. It is appropriate for kids to learn basic skills, but not much more

Edited May 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

Gee Kurt, I like my Jefferson's   LoL

[EagleRJO]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:23 AM, VKurtB said:

"Collect what and how you like" is a tacit invitation to flood the hobby with worthless junk. There IS A RIGHT AND WRONG WAY TO DO THIS! Sorry if that offends your "kum bay yah" mindset. It is meant to.

You quoted me, but I'm completely lost as to who you are referring to.  You feeling okay?

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:30 PM, J P M said:

Gee Kurt, I like my Jefferson's   LoL

I love mine too, but absolutely every one is Mint State (but raw). Most of them were cut from  Uncirculated and Proof Sets. They’d grade high. I AM a condition snob, but I can’t justify the waste of money getting them graded. The only ones that are in plastic are the ones with no spot in a Dansco album. Think 1994, 1997, and 2020 special strikes. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:54 PM, EagleRJO said:

You quoted me, but I'm completely lost as to who you are referring to.  You feeling okay?

My comments were more directed to ANYONE who spews that “collect how and what you like” drivel. We only own our collections temporarily. They are more stable than our miserable carbon-based meat bags are. We are merely temporary custodians, and like it or not, the ills we do in collecting live on after us, frequently to the damage of people we euphemistically call “loved ones”. At least leave them something worth having. Maybe you have to be older than the life expectancy where you live, as I am, to think intergenerationally. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:58 PM, VKurtB said:

I love mine too, but absolutely every one is Mint State (but raw). Most of them were cut from  Uncirculated and Proof Sets. They’d grade high. I AM a condition snob, but I can’t justify the waste of money getting them graded. The only ones that are in plastic are the ones with no spot in a Dansco album. Think 1994, 1997, and 2020 special strikes. 

I also will most likely never grade any of my raw coins. Not when I can buy coins all ready graded for much less than the cost of who ever sent them in originally