1976-D Eisenhower dollar Clipped Planchet 1 1

[Hinkle]

Is this a true clipped on this coin. I'm not really knowing how to tell from altered or real. Thought I would get some opinions on this . Thanks 

[J P M]

It is very old so that makes it tough but looking at the strike of the opposite side it may be the real deal. 

[Sandon]

   I recall the weak area of the rim opposite a clipped edge being referred to as the "Blakeslee Effect" or something of that sort.  The presence of this characteristic suggests that this coin was struck on a genuine clipped planchet, but I assume that this characteristic could be faked along with the edge clip. I would show this coin to an error coin specialist.

[Just Bob]

I agree with Sandon. The presence of the Blakesley effect leads me to believe that this could be the real deal.

[EagleRJO]

Idk, I think it's a toss up if it's real or altered.  The edges look a little rough, and the side view of the cut surface seems to show two attempts or squeezes to cut through the coin, whereas a mint clip would be one cut.

However, the following article on clipped coin errors talks about looking for the Blakesley Effect opposite the clip, which is a weak edge, and that does appear to be present (at least on the reverse).

It might be worth submitting to a TPG since there is a weak edge opposite the clip, and that is a pretty good sized clip.

Link: Article on Clipped Coin Errors

Edited April 1, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

Thanks for the article Eagle!

I wonder how the metallurgy of the coin also affects the details after the coin is struck, and that is not covered by the article. What I am getting at is are the weak details around the clip going to be the same on copper VS silver VS nickel (harder VS softer metals)....I do see how the copper-nickel clad is showing on the edge view (although that could be just silver paint), and the coin is uncirculated which is most likely in the case of a clipped coin (especially one like this with such a large clip). This coin does show most of the attributes covered in the article on genuine clip errors. I am leaning towards this being a true mint error for a curved clip.

[Mr.Bill347]

Idk either there is a pinch, or squeeze under the date and on the obverse same position that, to me indicates vise. That would allow holding it to grind it out, my vote, PMD.

[EagleRJO]

I thought about the clad later possibly causing the two different edge surfaces, with the cut from right to left in the pic, but it's too thick.  That points to a vice job also.

[J P M]

It could be a fake people do strange things to coins. The only other thing that I thought made it look realistic was the clad copper edge was pushed from one side to the other indicating the clip was a cut and not just ground off.   

[EagleRJO]

There are HVAC tools used to punch circular holes in heavy ductwork that could be used to produce cuts like that, but I think it becomes apparent to collectors.

[powermad5000]

As an electrician, I have used many punches to put holes in panels and pull box installs, but the one characteristic of any of those punch tools is they cannot produce a perfect edge post cut. A little bit of metal is always "rolled" or "pushed out" at the edge of the punch making its own small raised "lip". Even a new set of knockouts produce this lip which we quickly file off when the punches are new, but as the knockouts wear out, the lip gets worse and takes more filing as the worn knockout is literally pushing its way through the metal instead of cutting it.

That is not apparent on this coin. 

[powermad5000]

Also a vice job would not explain the weaknesses of the lettering and rim on an otherwise uncirculated coin as described by the others and the article referencing the Blakesley effect, and would require those areas to be ground down which imho would be plainly evident with grooves from a cutting wheel, grinding wheel, or heavy leaning on a polishing tool.

[EagleRJO]

Perhaps the shiny appearance on the right side of the cut edge is from a filing.  The more I look at the edge and cut the more I think its a vice job, but then there is the distinct weak edge opposite the cut.  Perhaps it is legit and someone cleaned up the edge cut to make it look nicer.  If this is sent in I would be very curious to know the results of that submission.

Edited April 2, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Fenntucky Mike]

I've been looking at this one today, thinking about it, and there are things I like and things I don't like. I'm not sure but my initial thought was that this was a modified clipped planchet, meaning an actual error that was altered to look more dramatic. 

[EagleRJO]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:43 PM, powermad5000 said:

... punches to put holes in panels and pull box installs, but the one characteristic of any of those punch tools is they cannot produce a perfect edge post cut

I have used those also, which are basically bolt up punches, and I'm not sure it would really work on the edge of a coin.  I was referring to a bolt cutter like tool, maybe with a hose, for holes in thick sheet metal that could be used to clip off an edge.

That could be used to clip off the edge of a coin in a vice, maybe with two squeezes consistent with the edge appearance, but again the weak edge opposite the cut and someone possibly filing the edge aside.

Edited April 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

In the field we use a hydraulic hand pump version typically made by Greenlee tools. They also make hand thread versions for use in tight spaces and take a lot of elbow grease to make the punch. Milwaukee also makes a battery operated version which is now becoming very popular. They are able to cut through metal up to 1/4" thick and could easily cut through a coin. I have made side cuts with a 1" punch on a 3/4" hole to enlarge the hole to 1" and will punch out a moon shaped portion of the metal if aligned properly. They could easily clip a portion of a coin.

Outside of our discussion of metal punches, there still has to be reasonable explanation of the weaker details and rim of the coin presented if the coin were to be a vice job with a punch tool and doctoring of the cut. One area that does disturb me is the R in LIBERTY on the obverse. E, T, and Y are all weak at the top, but the R is fully struck and I would think that the top of the R would also be weak. The other thing concerning the filing of the clip is that the clad layer is thin and if you were to take a file to it, you would remove the copper-nickel layer and expose all the copper underneath, not more copper-nickel silver clad.

I don't know for sure. I may just have to keep the option open that it was a legitimate clip error but has post mint damage as well.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/2/2023 at 4:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

The other thing concerning the filing of the clip is that the clad layer is thin and if you were to take a file to it, you would remove the copper-nickel layer and expose all the copper underneath, not more copper-nickel silver clad.

I think that makes the edge appearance even more of a mystery, and why I would be very interested in finding out the submission results.

On 4/2/2023 at 4:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

In the field we use a hydraulic hand pump version typically made by Greenlee tools.

We may be talking about the same tool, but just similar to the one described, which I think is available as hydraulic actuated for thicker metal that is used in the mechanical field.  That would likely easily clip a corner of pretty thick sheet metal, and the edge of a coin.

But not likely the more common and inexpensive bolt up threaded punches which tend to bind when there isn't equal resistance, let alone trying to clip off just one side with it and get a clean cut (unlike a raw punch or enlarging a hole where there is equal perimeter resistance).  I have had problems with using these bolt up punches with say one side on a seam of thicker metal similar to a coin.

In my mind it's not very likely that someone doing a vice job will have an expensive specialty tool like the hydraulic punch being discussed that could do a cut with a single squeeze, although it is possible.

Edited April 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 4/2/2023 at 5:07 PM, EagleRJO said:

I think that makes the edge appearance even more of a mystery, and why I would be very interested in finding out the submission results.

We may be talking about the same tool similar to the attached, which I think is available as hydraulic actuated for thicker metal that is used in the mechanical field.  That would likely easily clip a corner of pretty thick sheet metal, and the edge of a coin.

But not likely the more common and inexpensive bolt up threaded punches which tend to bind when there isn't equal resistance, let alone trying to clip off just one side with it and get a clean cut (unlike a raw punch or enlarging a hole where there is equal perimeter resistance).  I have had problems with using these bolt up punches with say one side on a seam of thicker metal similar to a coin.

In my mind it's not very likely that someone doing a vice job will have an expensive specialty tool like the hydraulic punch being discussed that could do a cut with a single squeeze, although it is possible.

That is a punch for steel studs with grommets. I also have been doing electrical work for 50 years. The one thing about these type of punches is with a small piece of metal or trying to make a hole bigger it tends to bend the metal a lot. The coin would be twisted easily  .

[Just Bob]

On 4/2/2023 at 3:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

 I may just have to keep the option open that it was a legitimate clip error but has post mint damage as well.

Bingo

[EagleRJO]

On 4/2/2023 at 6:57 PM, J P M said:

That is a punch for steel studs with grommets.

Similar to that as noted.  I didn't find the one I was thinking of from a quick search, but it didn't come with gromets.  It's been a while but It may have been intended for punching holes in studs and was just being used for mechanical work.

Bottom line is it was a very expensive tool that would not just be left laying around to do a vice job on a coin with a nice clean cut, similar to the mint punch machine.

[powermad5000]

The tool you pictured, Eagle, is what electricians in the field call a stud punch. We use it to punch out steel studs to put electrical pipes through the insides of walls. It is not made to cut through metal thicker than 1/16" thick. It will not punch out metal boxes or metal stock that is 1/8" thick or thicker. In alignment with J P M, they cannot punch a part of metal off without bending the metal. The tool I was referencing I have I pic of below. This is a hydraulic tool that can punch a moon shape piece of metal from thick metal boxes and thick metal stock. Keep in mind though that this tool will ALWAYS produce an edge next to the punched out metal that is "rolled" or "lipped".

I would like to see the OP maybe send this coin to ANACS which would be a little less pricey than NGC or PCGS and see what the determination is.

Edited April 3, 2023 by powermad5000

[EagleRJO]

Powermad, I have used that tool before for very thick sheet metal, as well as the bolt-up threaded punches, but those are not exactly what I was thinking about.  Very similar to the one you posted [but more like the attached], which I think would have made a clean cut.  Perhaps the different appearance on the right side of the edge is from filing down the edge to remove any rolled metal from the cut using tools like the ones you posted.

I am leaning towards a legit clipped planchet error with the weak edge opposite the cut, but the size of the clip and edge appearance are still rubbing me the wrong way.

Edited April 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:58 PM, EagleRJO said:

Powermad, I have used that tool before for very thick sheet metal, as well as the bolt-up threaded punches, but those are not what I was thinking about.  Just similar to the pic I posted, with two long handles as noted, which I think would have made a clean cut.  Perhaps the different appearance on the right side of the edge is from filing down the edge to remove any rolled metal from the cut using tools like the ones you posted.

I am leaning towards a legit clipped planchet error with the weak edge opposite the cut, but the size of the clip and edge appearance are still rubbing me the wrong way.

If Hinkle were to slide another IKE into the clip then take a picture. We may be able to see if there is a big variation in the gap if it has been cut and filed . Other than that I would say send it to ANACS. 

[powermad5000]

On 4/3/2023 at 7:32 AM, J P M said:

If Hinkle were to slide another IKE into the clip then take a picture. We may be able to see if there is a big variation in the gap if it has been cut and filed .

This is a very good point!!! The curvature if made by the blanking press should be the same radius as an Ike dollar. And the second dollar should fit into the clip like a key into a keyhole, but the reeded edge may prohibit actually inserting the second Ike into the clip so yes, putting it on top should suffice to see if the radius is equal.

[EagleRJO]

Attached is a digital overlay of the outside diameter of an Ike Dollar to check the size of the cut.  It is almost spot on, and I would say within the accuracy of the method to be a match.  So there would be no need to try and fit another Ike dollar in the cutout.

That leaves just the appearance of the edge rubbing me the wrong way, where the right side of the edge looks like it was filed down to clean up a vice job cut with one of the punches discussed and unlike the clean cut a blanking machine would produce.

Edited April 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Hinkle]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:32 AM, J P M said:

If Hinkle were to slide another IKE into the clip then take a picture. We may be able to see if there is a big variation in the gap if it has been cut and filed . Other than that I would say send it to ANACS. 

I'll do that soon as I get the coin back from my sister. It's hers, I have no clue how she found it. But really cool to see something like that on any coin. I'll  let her know you guys suggest to send it in to be looked at. Thank you to everyone.