2021 Silver Eagle error reverse upside down 1 1

[JessieBack]

I have two 2021 Type 1 Silver Eagles, The Reverse is upside down, I don't know if it is normal or is it an error, or possible Fake?

 

 

Jessie

Edited March 26, 2023 by JessieBack
forgot a word wording

[Greenstang]

Is this not the same question you asked last year?  
Yes, that is the way they are struck.

[EagleRJO]

ASE's have a "vertical turn" or "coin turn", as do other US coins if you look at your pocket change.  This means if you hold the coin at 3 and 9 o'clock looking at the obverse and turn the coin vertically, the reverse should be right-side-up.

[A corollary to this is "horizontal turn" where when you hold the coin at 12 and 6 o'clock looking at the obverse and turn the coin horizontally, the reverse should be right-side-up.  Medals produced by the US mint have a horizontal turn, which is also referred to as a "medallic turn"]

Edited March 27, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   It would be helpful if you would post clear, cropped photos of each side of the coin in question. There are, unfortunately, counterfeits of American Silver Eagles. They are identified by characteristics other than their die alignment. I've never heard of counterfeit American Eagles with improperly oriented dies, but it is possible.

   U.S. coins are supposed to be struck in a 180-degree apart "coin turn" alignment where, if you hold the coin by its edges (or preferably by the edges of its holder) between your thumb and forefinger at the top and bottom (12 and 6 o'clock) with the obverse facing upright to your eyes and turn it horizontally to the other side, the reverse will be upside down. If this is what you mean, it is normal. (@EagleRJO called this a "vertical turn" in his post while I was writing this and proposed an opposite but equivalent test.) Occasionally, especially on older U.S. coins, the dies were misaligned in a "medal turn" for which the tests would produce opposite results or at various other degrees of rotation. 

   Note that most world coins are struck in a "medal turn" alignment.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Sandon

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:35 PM, Sandon said:

U.S. coins are supposed to be struck in a 180-degree apart "coin turn" alignment where, if you hold the coin by its edges (or preferably by the edges of its holder) between your thumb and forefinger at the top and bottom (12 and 6 o'clock) with the obverse facing upright to your eyes and turn it horizontally to the other side, the reverse will be upside down. If this is what you mean, it is normal. (@EagleRJO called this a "vertical turn" in his post while I was writing this and proposed an opposite but equivalent test.) Occasionally, especially on older U.S. coins, the dies were misaligned in a "medal turn" for which the tests would produce opposite results or at various other degrees of rotation.     Note that most world coins are struck in a "medal turn" alignment.

Is this similar to the entire "inverted edge" and other stuff describing how the writing on the coin edge appears depending on how you are looking at or holding the coin ?

[Sandon]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is this similar to the entire "inverted edge" and other stuff describing how the writing on the coin edge appears depending on how you are looking at or holding the coin ?

  This topic has nothing to do with the edge of the coin, although I suppose that inverted edge lettering could be said to be analogous to rotated die errors.  

   Take any U.S. coin, whether modern pocket change or a double eagle, and you will almost certainly observe that it is struck in a "coin turn". Rotated die errors--generally of little value--seem most common on Civil War era coins. I saw a circulated 1862 Indian cent that had the dies oriented 90 degrees off to the right, so that if you used my test, the reverse was sideways, with the shield on the right side. I've also seen rotations on two cent pieces of 1864 and 1865. The 1836 Gobrecht dollar comes in four different die alignments. At one time researchers believed that these alignments could be used to determine whether a coin was an 1836 "original" or a restrike, but it has now been determined that the rotation of the dies was related to problems with the feeder mechanism of the coinage press.

[EagleRJO]

My understanding is that the "turn" of a coin is always referenced to the reverse ending in the right-side-up orientation.

Edited March 27, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 3/26/2023 at 7:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is this similar to the entire "inverted edge" and other stuff describing how the writing on the coin edge appears depending on how you are looking at or holding the coin ?

The turn of the coin is different than an "inverted edge" when one set of edge lettering from a split collar die is facing up and the other set of edge lettering is facing down ("inverted"), referenced with the obverse side facing up.  I think this occurred with the John Adams dollar coin and maybe one other.

Also, since the edge lettering for more modern coins is done with a separate machine, after the sides are struck at a coining press and dropped into a bin, the result is there is no specific orientation of the edge lettering.

Edited March 28, 2023 by EagleRJO

[bsshog40]

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/26/2023 at 1:11 PM, JessieBack said:

I have two 2021 Type 1 Silver Eagles, The Reverse is upside down, I don't know if it is normal or is it an error, or possible Fake? Jessie

Jesse, can I ask you a few questions if you don't mind ?

Are you a regular buyer of the ASEs (American Silver Eagles) or were they a 1-time purchase or a gift ?  Also, why did you think they might be valuable....did someone tip you off (family member, friend) or did you come across something on social media (Facebook, YouTube) that promised Get Rich with a unique coin find ?

Thanks  ! 

Edited March 28, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[JessieBack]

I will post photos later, yes, I am turning the correctly. I have them in an coin album, when i turn the page all the rest of the coins are correct. 

[JessieBack]

here are the photos of one of my coins

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 4/1/2023 at 10:57 AM, JessieBack said:

here are the photos of one of my coins

 

Looks like a Chinese knockoff, it's not an actual ASE produced by the U.S. Mint.

[J P M]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:41 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Looks like a Chinese knockoff, it's not an actual ASE produced by the U.S. Mint.

It must be, it has the 2007 reverse. Just to name one of the things I see

[Sandon]

   Unfortunately, this coin is clearly a counterfeit. Apart from the sans serif "U" last used for bullion strikes in 2007 (and on a small minority of 2008-W "burnished uncirculated" collectors' versions), the fields appear to have a mirror finish; but a proof with such a finish would have a "W" mintmark near the olive branch. There are also discrepancies in the shapes and thicknesses of the letters, many fine details, and the surface texture of the devices. The coin's having been oriented in a "medal turn" instead of a "coin turn" is just another indication of its lack of authenticity.

   I maintain that if you want to spend any significant amount of money on coins, especially coins that aren't either obtained directly from the mint or certified by a reputable third-party grading service, you must familiarize yourself with the fine details and overall appearance of the coins you collect. Carefully compare this counterfeit's characteristics with those of the other American Silver Eagle bullion coins in your album, which I hope are genuine.

  From whom did you obtain this coin? Perhaps you can return it for a refund.

   

[RWB]

Just turn it around -- it'll be OK.

[GoldFinger1969]

So it's 1 ounce of silver, guys, but not an ASE ?

If Jessie didn't pay much over spot than he didn't suffer any great loss.

 

[EagleRJO]

On 4/1/2023 at 12:00 PM, J P M said:

It must be, it has the 2007 reverse. Just to name one of the things I see

A mistake on some counterfeits, and something to keep an eye out for with raw coins, is a mismatched obverse and reverse.  The 2021 Type-1 ASE Jessie posted above has the wrong reverse of 2007.  This is the diagnostic.

Edited April 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So it's 1 ounce of silver, guys, but not an ASE ?

  There's no way we can tell its composition from photos.  It may be silver plated or contain no silver at all.

[J P M]

 I hope we can help . We try not to give out to much information on fake coins. We do not want the bad guys to get better at tricking the public. I am happy to help If you have more coins. I am sure others here will take a look for you also.  

Edited April 1, 2023 by J P M

[powermad5000]

I could only assume it is not silver and it seems to be plated the way the reverse has a mirror like finish, but the obverse either wasn't plated, or just not as heavily. Another thing when buying coins is a different finish or color or overall appearance on one side of the coin VS the other. This can help tell if a coin has been cleaned on one side but in this case, it would indicate an altered surface and a hint to look at details further in the case of a counterfeit. I am sure its weight is off also.

[Sandon]

   The foreign counterfeiters can easily get ahold of genuine ASEs and most of the other U.S. coins that they copy or at least high-resolution images of them, so I'm not concerned about tipping them off to anything.  I suspect that their "products" differ markedly from the actual coins at least in part because they want to be able to claim that they're just making "replicas" or "souvenirs" and don't intend to defraud. They probably don't care that their customers who buy them in bulk then try to pass them off as genuine coins and that some people collect coins without ever bothering to learn what they're supposed to look like.

[JessieBack]

Thank all of you for the help and comments, I did think it would be counterfeit. But wanted to be sure. I am a beginner at this, but I'm learning.

Edited April 1, 2023 by JessieBack

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:26 PM, JessieBack said:

Thank all of you for the help and comments, I did think it would be counterfeit. But wanted to be sure. I am a beginner at this, but I'm learning.

Just be careful with more expensive purchases.  We've ALL gotten burned, the key is to make it a small mistake $$$-wise. 

[VKurtB]

On 4/2/2023 at 10:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just be careful with more expensive purchases.  We've ALL gotten burned, the key is to make it a small mistake $$$-wise. 

Have we really??? Do you really want to make a claim like this?? We've ALL gotten burned??? Wow! Really? Not quite, GoldFinger. Some of us actually do "read the book before buying the coin" and actually do only deal with reputable dealers and are not in a hurry to buy the deal "too good to be true". Avoiding getting scammed is actually trivially easy, IF you just pay a little attention. Don't buy as a rank beginner. Learn stuff before you dive in with both feet.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Have we really??? Do you really want to make a claim like this?? We've ALL gotten burned??? Wow! Really? Not quite, GoldFinger. Some of us actually do "read the book before buying the coin" and actually do only deal with reputable dealers and are not in a hurry to buy the deal "too good to be true". Avoiding getting scammed is actually trivially easy, IF you just pay a little attention. Don't buy as a rank beginner. Learn stuff before you dive in with both feet.

So you've NEVER overpaid or missed something on a coin, Kurt ? 

You're the exception, I wager most here have had some regrettable purchases.  

[J P M]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So you've NEVER overpaid or missed something on a coin, Kurt ? 

You're the exception, I wager most here have had some regrettable purchases.  

 I have never bought anything from the US Mint. 

[EagleRJO]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:26 PM, JessieBack said:

Thank all of you for the help and comments, I did think it would be counterfeit. But wanted to be sure. I am a beginner at this, but I'm learning.

Learn about a series and counterfeit detection before you start buying raw coins.

@GoldFinger1969 I also have not had any issues with coins I have purchased, and I buy a lot of raw coins including almost a complete proof and silver ASE collection, almost the entire Morgan series (all years and marks), and starting a one-a-year half dollar set, other than having to return a few coins with questionable grades or diagnostics.

But I spend time looking into a series and quite a lot of time checking coins, grades, and the diagnostics (die markers, VAMs, possible counterfeits, etc.) carefully before I buy them, or as soon as I get them.  However, I have really only been buying more expensive coins (say more than about $200) for about a year, but other coins for quite a while.

Edited April 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So you've NEVER overpaid or missed something on a coin, Kurt ? 

You're the exception, I wager most here have had some regrettable purchases.  

The one thing that I have repeatedly "missed" is buying a coin in haste.   I simply never do it. I am totally willing to let ANY coin go. Act in haste, repent in leisure.