Thoughts on my discoveries. 1 1

[Eagles In Vermont]

So- I bought this 2015 W ASE. It is labeled as MS 70 but on super close inspection I found what appears to be the tiniest little indentation. Under high mag it almost looks like a dust particle from outer space struck and dented it. To my eye this means it's not a 70 but a 69. I did the best I could with my phone cam. You can see a dot above the T in LIBERTY, to the left. It's a beautiful coin - (I think)- otherwise, and star label, West Point; supposedly low mintage there. I can't presume to be a professional grader- not yet anyway ha-ha- but I honestly don't know if I'm being too harsh in my assessment. I still say this tiny mark makes it a downgrade; it checks out in the registry but any photos of it are probably ones I will add.

[J P M]

There are things that get missed . It may not have been a noticeable mark when the coin was new. Time can change things.

[EagleRJO]

On 3/5/2023 at 2:43 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

Under high mag it almost looks like a dust particle from outer space struck and dented it. To my eye this means it's not a 70 but a 69.

They don't use high magnification for grading.  I think it's 5x.  And are you sure it's not just a small spot or flake on the plastic holder, which happens.

Edited March 6, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   "NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification." See NGC Coin Grading Scale | About Coin Grades | NGC.  

   This is why, in my opinion, coins that grading services have graded "70", all of which are collectors' and bullion investors' issues made since 1960 or so, simply shouldn't have any premium value over those graded "69", nor should such coins be submitted to grading services in the first place. I've frequently seen coins graded "70" with spots, tiny nicks, and other imperfections. 

[Coinbuf]

Did the coin bother you before you put it under your electron microscope?   The metal used to make the blanks is not 100% perfect, the process of minting a coin is not done in a clean room, the mint employees are not wearing bio-hazard suits to keep microscopic skin cells out of the press, are you getting my point yet?   Nothing that involves the human presence can ever be 100% perfect, if this bothers you then buying PF or MS70 coins will be a constant source of disappointment to you.   If you cannot see problems with the naked eye then it should not really be an issue.   Either put away the stupid microscope and enjoy the coins or find another hobby because spending your time being disappointed with every coin you have would be a very lousy way to go through life.

[EagleRJO]

Put the scope away, unless you are doing something like matching die markers to attribute a variety or authenticate a coin.

[powermad5000]

If anything, it is hard to get the 70 designation and if they missed something it is to your advantage. Why argue with the label? Also, if you are doing high mag on all your coins and finding things that can't be seen with the naked eye, you are going to find just about every coin to be not "perfect". If the coin was pleasing enough for you to buy it, it should make you happy to own it, not disappointed in it. Aside from that, you really only need to look over raw coins (or bullion) with a magnifier when you are self grading before deciding to purchase said coin (or bullion). Somebody already did the work of looking and checking before it was slabbed. You only need to check the coin in the slab if you question the slab has been tampered with.

[GoldFinger1969]

Put your phone's auto-stabilization on or use a micro-tripod.  It shouldn't look that blurry.

Here's a photo of one of my ASEs with my Galaxy S4 held by my hands:

[GBrad]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Here's a photo of one of my ASEs with my Galaxy S4 held by my hands:

Can you write a tutorial (and pin it) on how to take pictures like that by only holding your phone with your hands???? Good grief man...... you have some steady nerves. That's a good pic!!!👍

Edit: I never should have switched to an iPhone........ I loved my Samsung....

Edited March 6, 2023 by GBrad

[Eagles In Vermont]

Of course I don't expect perfect! I'm trying to get an idea of how coins are graded, how strict the standards are, etc. If any of these someday go up for sale at auction these little things would probably get noticed. As a rule I put all my coins under high mag to examine the finer details for my enjoyment and because I am simply trying to find out what to look for and what exactly are the factors considered when grading and or possibly selling. I am quite happy with all my coins; I enjoy what I am doing. My collection is growing fast and I know I have some pretty darned decent ones in there. Sarcasm is all fine and well, but I am trying to ask legitimate questions that I feel I should ask. If I can't get decent answers here I will ask elsewhere. I have purchased the pre-eminent guide to silver eagles and I foresee the day when I will be quite knowledgeable about these coins. I am already quite a way along that path. Some of you can go ahead and enjoy the sarcasms, but you should know too that I am a serious collector, and who knows? Maybe sometime I will be the person with the answers and not the other way around. Thank you all for your replies.

[powermad5000]

I did not denote any sarcasm in any of the replies in this thread. There are quite knowledgeable and educated people on here only sharing their advice on a volunteer basis on your original post. I am not sure what offended you in any of the replies and if received that way I am quite confident nobody on here had that intent. We all started the same way. Not knowing anything.

[GBrad]

On 3/6/2023 at 12:00 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

If I can't get decent answers here I will ask elsewhere.

I think you got more decent answers here than most newcomers do.  You were given the 100% absolute truth about the question you asked, and, in very good detail!  If you are going to stay in this hobby, and participate on major coin forum chat boards, I would highly suggest you get a bit more thick skinned and lose your attitude, respectfully.  @powermad5000, @EagleRJO, @GoldFinger1969, @Coinbuf, @J P M, and finally @Sandon, who, by the way, are all long time collectors and experts in their respective fields, took their time to give you their honest opinion and the hard truth.  If you find another place to ask "elsewhere", and hope to get different answers, well...... best of luck.  As far as I can tell, your question was answered and you simply did not like it.  Good luck.  

[EagleRJO]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Put your phone's auto-stabilization on or use a micro-tripod.  It shouldn't look that blurry.

Here's a photo of one of my ASEs with my Galaxy S4 held by my hands:

That is pretty good, but the coin details get a little blurry when you zoom in a lot.  Are you close enough to the coin so the auto-focus stays on just the coin?

[Eagles In Vermont]

I do appreciate all of the advice- I would rather make friends here than otherwise. I don't know if everyone's comments and replies are generally visible, but in any case I'm here because I love this hobby- something new for me as I approach the big six oh. I also admit to looking ahead at the investment potential, but mostly my goal is to collect every issue of every date of eagles, then start on peace and morgan dollars- I only have a couple of those but about 60 graded eagles so far. I like the type two eagles and I am getting all I can while the getting is still pretty good in FS, FYI and FDI. Anyway, I do trust the views of experienced collectors and as always I am open to discussion and helpful hints, etc. Thank you!

[EagleRJO]

On 3/6/2023 at 4:30 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

I also admit to looking ahead at the investment potential, but mostly my goal is to collect every issue of every date of eagles

Note that while collectible coins will generally increase in value over time (and sometimes decrease - just ask JPM ) they are not as good as other classic investment types, or bullion bars if you want some precious metals.  I think gold and silver bullion coins are a good middle ground between bars and collectible coins, as long as you don't submit ASE's to a TPG to be graded which will result in a loss.

I occasionally buy a mix of gold and silver bullion bars and bullion coins as a precious metals investment when it looks like spot prices are relatively low, but of course I like the gold bullion coins the best hands down.  This includes Gold Eagles, Saints, Roosters, and Indian Head half eagles as some examples.  The 2020 Gold Eagles are particularly stunning in-hand with a Saints obverse and nice reverse (see attached).  For silver I like the Type-2 ASE's with the Walking Liberty obverse and flying eagle reverse, but there is the issue of "milk spots".

However the Indians are really a mix of bullion and collectible coins, less tied to spot prices than others, and I just like the way they look.  Also I do not purchase collectible coins as an "investment".

Edited March 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:39 AM, EagleRJO said:

sometimes decrease, just ask @J P M ) t

Ya I lost money on the 2023 ASE I just got the other day spot is $21. The ASE is a coin per say and not just a silver round most dealers charge around $32 to $38 depending where you go. That has been the normal price for a while now and if I want it for my collection that is the way it is. I don't expect to pay less the dealer needs to pay the rent. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:38 PM, GBrad said:

Can you write a tutorial (and pin it) on how to take pictures like that by only holding your phone with your hands???? Good grief man...... you have some steady nerves. That's a good pic!!!👍

Edit: I never should have switched to an iPhone........ I loved my Samsung....

I love iPhones for all kinds of NON-PHOTO reasons, but you’re right - except for the hugely expensive models, close up photography is NOT their strong suit. 

[Eagles In Vermont]

The old white spotting issue is enough of a turn off to almost make me want to rethink what I am doing with collecting ASE coins. But, on the other hand my entire collection will be slabbed and graded- a lot of them are not the given grades because of this damned spot issue. Collectors don't want 'em. I bought a type 2 FDI from a large and reputable bullion dealer and when it arrived it was fine. Perfect. Fast forward two weeks, and now presto! White spotting on the obverse, lower right. Maybe cuz it was shipped in winter? It looks more like a wispy cloud but it is there. I am also beginning to understand why folks are unloading them on e-bay, trying to recoup their losses. Although many of my purchases have been great, both from e-bay and from large bullion dealers, I dislike worrying about when "guess what, white spot time!" is going to happen. I am far enough in to this I  might as well finish, and assuming no spots appear I do have a few gems in my collection, especially the proofs, which (so far) look just terrific. My goal is simple- collect every date in as many mints as I can. I now have six first year of issues, and so far they at least all look great.

[Coinbuf]

The ASE, both silver and gold, are beautiful coins with a great design.   And many fair just fine and may never develop any spots, but many do.   It is a problem that collectors of silver ASE coins must deal with, hopefully the enjoyment of the coins outweighs the pain of the few that do develop spots.   While I like the coins and design, I simply don't want the hassles of the spots so other than a few I picked up along the way as type coins, it is a series that I have avoided.

When these first came out the prices were much closer to silver spot, so thinking like a hobbyist it really wasn't that much of a problem if one or two spotted as you still had the silver value of the coin so it was a minimal financial hit.   Now with the premium for the coin well over silver spot I imagine it stings a bit more.

[Eagles In Vermont]

Coinbuf- thanks for the comments. Yeah, I am taking a bit of a hit there- not too terrible, but enough to be somewhat annoying and will eat up probably half of my tax refund, haha!. I'm still managing to get what I want in a relatively safe price range for me, but not always. (The real issue is arguably that I am buying too many and I should slow down!) I was aware of the spot issue at first, and I did take the risk to begin with, knowing I would probably get some spots here and there one way or the other. However, assuming a few of the good ones- and there are a few, to be sure- stay spot free, it might work out that some of them will offset the others in potential value and/or collectability, at least with the passage of time. At least I have the melt value of the silver. In the meantime, I do thoroughly enjoy the collecting and studying of my ASE's, so that does indeed count for something. (I'll probably end up knowing more about these things than my own diet ha-ha.) Take care and Happy coining! 

[J P M]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:10 PM, Eagles In Vermont said:

Coinbuf- thanks for the comments. Yeah, I am taking a bit of a hit there- not too terrible, but enough to be somewhat annoying and will eat up probably half of my tax refund, haha!. I'm still managing to get what I want in a relatively safe price range for me, but not always. (The real issue is arguably that I am buying too many and I should slow down!) I was aware of the spot issue at first, and I did take the risk to begin with, knowing I would probably get some spots here and there one way or the other. However, assuming a few of the good ones- and there are a few, to be sure- stay spot free, it might work out that some of them will offset the others in potential value and/or collectability, at least with the passage of time. At least I have the melt value of the silver. In the meantime, I do thoroughly enjoy the collecting and studying of my ASE's, so that does indeed count for something. (I'll probably end up knowing more about these things than my own diet ha-ha.) Take care and Happy coining! 

I like my ASE collection it was the first set I completed.  I have 2 graded MS 70 and one proof the rest are all hand picked raw coins that are 68,69, 70 nice coins. I have a couple that did get spots. Not much you can do about that. I replaced the bad ones with High hopes for the rest. When I was putting the set together silver was climbing so I thought It would be ok but in todays market they are not. It's ok the set is nice and it is for my grand kids anyway. I only buy one a year now. Buy what you like and go slow don't worry there will be enough coins for everyone.  .   

Edited March 11, 2023 by J P M

[Eagles In Vermont]

Coinbuf...Sweet! I figure my brother and sister will get mine or some smelter haha. In the meantime, I am enjoying them while I can. When I think about it, it's not so bad- I average between 45 (most of them anyway- a price low!) to 100 (a few- rather high!) per coin; I am buying them slabbed and graded. I am getting while the getting is good, as they say. My cost is on average about the spot price of silver and the cost of the grading and slabbing- but of course the spots reduced about one quarter of the total to pretty much spot value anyway. But the rest are not bad- two 2022 proof 70 UC, (one of which I paid 200 for- early release- fifty bucks too high lol) a proof 2019 W and two proof 69 (type 1 and 2, 2021) and a couple of others; two 86's in pf 69 and 65. Assuming of course none of them are outright fakes, there's about 900 in silver. If silver goes up to over forty (as it did in 2015) I could dump all my 69's and not quite break even. Yeah, I figure at least for a while most of the dates I have left to acquire can be done fairly economically. That will change eventually I am sure. Here's a photo of mine....

[EagleRJO]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, Coinbuf said:

While I like the coins and design, I simply don't want the hassles of the spots so other than a few I picked up along the way as type coins, it is a series that I have avoided.

There are many like myself who are avid ASE collectors, and likely will get a few with milk spots.  Luckily, these coins are usually not high value, and I haven't had any develop the spots (knock on wood).  I am seriously considering discontinuing the series anyway until they can figure it out as the mint has other quality issues that need to be corrected, but then I will have gaps in the proof ASE collection.

On 3/10/2023 at 8:59 PM, J P M said:

I have a couple that did get spots. 

I am curious what years developed the spots.

On 3/10/2023 at 9:45 PM, Eagles In Vermont said:

My cost is on average about the spot price of silver and the cost of the grading and slabbing- but of course the spots reduced about one quarter of the total to pretty much spot value anyway.

One-in-four seems like a lot.  I am also curious what years developed the spots.

Edited March 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

"Milk spots" have been around for decades. I have a Franklin half proof with one small one on it. I have a silver IKE with one on it. The spots are actually due to metallurgic change in the planchet from the pressure of the strike. Some coins will never spot. Some will get only one. Some several. Some may take thirty years or longer for the spot to appear. Some can appear after TPG grading and in the respective holder. Some can appear weeks after being minted. They are an unwanted but an uncontrollable part of the minting process.

[Eagles In Vermont]

Eagle RJO: I think it's probably somewhat disproportionate that it's one in four- probably because so many came from e-bay when I first started and I wasn't as scrupulous as I am now, I am not sure. It also could be because they shipped in the New England winter cold and then came into a warm house, I just don't know. Some of them are only barely specked, the other spotted ones have small clusters of little ones that look like faint water- color paint brush drippings- but two or three have vivid single spots the size of BBs. I got a FYI type 2, 2021 delivered last month and it was fine for two weeks- and then two days ago- sigh. Not terrible, but a couple of them are starting to show. The most of them seem to be on dates struck after 2010. 

[J P M]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:44 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

Eagle RJO: I think it's probably somewhat disproportionate that it's one in four- probably because so many came from e-bay when I first started and I wasn't as scrupulous as I am now, I am not sure. It also could be because they shipped in the New England winter cold and then came into a warm house, I just don't know. Some of them are only barely specked, the other spotted ones have small clusters of little ones that look like faint water- color paint brush drippings- but two or three have vivid single spots the size of BBs. I got a FYI type 2, 2021 delivered last month and it was fine for two weeks- and then two days ago- sigh. Not terrible, but a couple of them are starting to show. The most of them seem to be on dates struck after 2010. 

Did you buy the slabbed coins from eBay at a discount because they already had the spots or did the spots just come later?

[EagleRJO]

On 3/6/2023 at 12:00 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

Sarcasm is all fine and well, but I am trying to ask legitimate questions that I feel I should ask. If I can't get decent answers here I will ask elsewhere

On 3/6/2023 at 1:48 AM, GBrad said:

I think you got more decent answers here than most newcomers do.

I just read this, and like @GBradI am also surprised by your comments.  Many very experienced members have taken the time to review questions you have and coins you post and give you straightforward, detailed and honest answers and advice, more so than some others from a quick look at a few of your threads.  Also, people here do not sugar coat answers.

I not sure what I am missing that would prompt that reaction, and I don't see any sarcasm above.  Perhaps you are referring to comments on the use of scopes, which you seemed a little defensive about.  You are free to use whatever devices desired to view coins, but avid collectors only use high magnification in very specific situations.

Keep in mind that circulated coins have many imperfections and PMD which will jump out at you under high magnification and can be misleading, like thinking they must be errors when they are almost always just common conditions.

[EagleRJO]

On 3/10/2023 at 9:45 PM, Eagles In Vermont said:

My cost is on average about the spot price of silver and the cost of the grading and slabbing- but of course the spots reduced about one quarter of the total to pretty much spot value anyway.

I would not submit ASE's or other similar lower-average value coins as you will lose money, since you have a $50 to $80 grading cost and only a slight increase in value from having those coins slabbed.

On 3/11/2023 at 4:44 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

I think it's probably somewhat disproportionate that it's one in four- probably because so many came from e-bay

On 3/11/2023 at 4:44 AM, Eagles In Vermont said:

The most of them seem to be on dates struck after 2010. 

I think people are becoming more aware of the "milk spot" issue, and at first signs of anything put them up for sale on eBay.  Also, while the spots can be from a span of many years it does look like most are more recently struck.