NGCX 1 1

[Fenntucky Mike]

It seems to be a way to bring in more comic and card collectors by making them feel good about a 10-1 grading scale as opposed to Sheldon? I'm going to reread everything again in the morning but that's my first take on it.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/10916/introducing-ngcx/

https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ngcx/ 

[Sandon]

   I just read about it as well, and I think it's a very bad idea.  It will introduce additional confusion about grading, especially for new and casual collectors, for experienced collectors who are unfamiliar with this new system, and for publishers of price guides as well! One problem is that the same numbers are used in the current numerical system (Sheldon's numbers, but not really his concept) to denote low grade, worn coins ranging from Poor to Very Good.  Additionally, there is no table translating the new numbers into equivalent the old ones, nor does it appear that both numbers would appear on the holder.

   I have a better idea.  Let's get rid of numbers altogether and return to adjectival grading, with additional adjectives or letters for surface preservation, strike, and color or toning.  NGC Ancients does something like this, and it provides a lot more information about the graders' evaluation of the coin!

[gmarguli]

I think we now know where the person behind "New Coke" currently works. They're at NGC.

This honestly sounds like one of the worst ideas ever. Horrible idea. 

You took a well known 70 point scale with 30 grade points and changed it to a 10 point scale with 29 grade points so that ultra-novice collectors, most of which will not remain in the hobby very long, can feel better about understanding the condition of the coin they couldn't grade themselves because they don't bother to educate themselves before jumping in. 

I'd be extremely surprised if this lasts to the end of the year. 

[EdG_Ohio]

What I'd like to know is that, are we going to be forced to use this for future submissions ? It states select dealers in Jan. 23' is this a option for now ? Why on earth would any established collector ever consider using this lame-brain idea ? My membership expires in the spring and even though I'm not on the level of many here I see no reason to pursue any future submissions, even though currently a option through dealers.
 Apparently someone never heard of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

....see how it pans out.

[Coinbuf]

I don't really understand it from the announcement either, seems this will only confuse the market not make it less so.

[zadok]

...hopefully there will be a continued option in the future of which scale u want the coins graded under?...i for one will not submit coins under the 10 point option...stupid idea....

[CIII]

Even though this service is only for modern coins and will not really affect me, I don't think this is a good idea.  

[robec1347]

I think this is going backwards. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/16/2022 at 8:35 PM, zadok said:

...i for one will not submit coins under the 10 point option...stupid idea....

Q.A.:  I believe the jury has returned with a verdict.

🐓:  It has, sir, as enshrined and set forth in pertinent part, above.

Q.A.:  Thank you, Oh Great One, for expressing our thoughts  succinctly and accurately.  

Edited November 17, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Usual die polishing.

[VKurtB]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:53 PM, gmarguli said:

I think we now know where the person behind "New Coke" currently works. They're at NGC.

Now THAT’s funny!

[GoldFinger1969]

OMG......

Edited November 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Sandon]

On 11/17/2022 at 12:07 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Weren't comics and baseball cards already graded on a 10-point scale ? 

   That's why NGC is doing this. They apparently think that this will induce card and comic book collectors to become collectors of modern coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/17/2022 at 12:12 AM, Sandon said:

   That's why NGC is doing this. They apparently think that this will induce card and comic book collectors to become collectors of modern coins.

If they couldn't spend 15 minutes getting up to speed on our grading system, they're probably not long for this hobby in the first place.

[MorganMan]

This idea is about as good smart as the US Mint's idea for the Susan B Anthony dollar. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by MorganMan

[EagleRJO]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say it may be a good change in the long run.  There has been talk of switching to a more logical 100 point system for a while, which it essentially will be with tenths.  Look at our dollar/coin system, intentionally set with a 100 basis for ease of use.  If your read up on the Coinage Act of 1792, which scraped the British coin system as too clunky in favor of the 100 basis system for coins, it makes more sense.  And virtually every other hobby uses a 10 point condition scale.

We live in a metric world where virtually every package is labeled with both US and metric equivalents, because the US has just been slow to catch up with the rest of the world.  I wouldn't be surprise if coins also ended up with some form of dual labeling given how slow the switch to metric has been.  Plus for a while the new NGCX scale, which seems more like just a metric scale, will just supplement existing grading.  So there is no rush.

I never liked the Sheldon 70 point numerical scale, which I think is clunky and illogical, with inexplicable number jumps because it was developed ages ago to simply force-fit numbers to the values of just one coin type minted around 1800, resulting in just arbitrary grade numbers for other coins.  I dislike it to the point where I often find I am still thinking in terms of just adjectival grades (https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/adjectival-grades/), including the BU, Choice and Gem designations, with a "+" modifier for a better condition with any given letter designation, and where the TPG's still use most of those adjectival descriptions for grades combined with the arbitrary junk numbers.

Granted, it will be a real pain for those who have been using the 70 system forever, and I think there will be growing pains and duplication or cross comparisons. But maybe in the long long it will be a much better system that just flows more naturally.

And maybe the switch will be easier than some think on the surface. [e.g. 10 for perfect. 9.0 to 9.9 for MS, 8 for AU, 7 for XF, 6 for VF, etc.]

Just my 2 (Indian head) nickels 😉

Edited November 28, 2022 by EagleRJO

[zadok]

...Bo Derek is a 10...lady liberty on a morgan dollar, not so much....

[Fenntucky Mike]

I dislike the idea of a 10 point system being used parallel to Sheldon, I dislike it a lot. By having two grading standards you just muddy the waters even further. Apparently the plan is to double dip on the existing customer base, trying to get Comic and Card collectors to jump into to coins, and it seems that a whole new registry will be created for coins graded on the 10 point scale, again, double dipping on the customer base, this time perhaps targeting all those bullion collectors to compete in another registry. 

Based on turnaround times I didn't think that TPG's were hurting for business but this just has a bad look from my point of view.

Assuming that the new CAC slabbing service was no secret in the industry, prior to being announced, was this a planned response?

Will current coin collectors reject this nonsense?

Not a fan. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

The descriptions for the grading points between the two grading scales are not identical (on purpose?), obviously there has to be a variation at some point due to there being one less grading point on the 10 point scale but if you're going to say a 10 is the same as a 70 and a 9.9 is the same as a 69 then I would think that the upper grades would've been more similarly described. An example of a few of the descriptions below.

MS 64 = Average or better strike with several obvious marks or hairlines and other miniscule imperfections.

9.4 = A well struck coin with moderate marks or hairlines. 

MS 63 = Slightly weak or average strike with moderate abrasions and hairlines of varying sizes.

9.3 = A coin with a good strike, but several obvious marks or hairlines and other miniscule imperfections.

My interpretation of the two scales is that they are supposed to be identical, or very close, except that there is no grading point for FR (Fair) in the 10 point system.?

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:09 AM, EagleRJO said:

I'm going to go against the grain here and say it may be a good change in the long run.  There had been talk of switching to a more logical 100 point system for a while, which it essentially will be with tenths.  Look at our dollar/coin system, intentionally set with a 100 basis for ease of use.  And virtually every other hobby uses a 10 point condition scale.

We live in a metric world where virtually every package is labeled with both US and metric equivalents, because the US has just been slow to catch up with the rest of the world.  Plus for a while the new NGCX scale, which seems more like just a metric scale, will just supplement existing grading.  So there is no rush.

I never liked the Sheldon 70 point scale, which I think is clunky and illogical, with inexplicable number jumps because it was developed ages ago to simply force-fit numbers to the values of just one coin type minted around 1800.  I dislike it so much I often find I am still thinking in terms of just adjectival grades, maybe with a "+" modifier for a better condition with a given letter designation.

Granted, it will be a real pain for those who have been using the 70 system forever, and I think there will be growing pains and duplication or cross comparisons. But maybe in the long long it will be a much better system that just flows more naturally.

And maybe the switch will be easier than some think on the surface ... e.g. 9.0 to 10 for MS, 8.0 for AU50, 7.0 for XF40, 6.0 for VF30, 5.0 for VF20, etc.

Just my 2 (Indian head) nickels 😉

CGC is trying to streamline grades across all collectibles which would have certain benefits, I get it. They are going to need a lot of people to get on board with this for it become mainstream, the end customers, competitors, ANA, etc.. It will be interesting to see everyone's reaction, or lack there of, in the next six months or so. Maybe it just exists along side everything else, but that would just be a slow death for this new venture. I would think that everyone would need to get on board with this for it to succeed, or there would need to be such an overwhelming positive response and demand for this that it will force everyone else to accept it. 

I wish they had announced this on Monday so we could have had Kurt get the ANA's board of directors reaction to this. 

[JT2]

WOW this is awesome.... Really doesn't matter to me . Nothing that late in life ever gets slabbed by me...........  If it is only worth face value why put it in a slab unless these are for  the "AMWAY" coins  you know Nui islands and the maeshal island...... etc...

[RWB]

A confused mixture of opinions, assumptions and unsupported measurements. This tango goes backward so many steps I've lost count.

[VKurtB]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If they couldn't spend 15 minutes getting up to speed on our grading system, they're probably not long for this hobby in the first place.

The eternal dilemma - how to appeal to those you don’t have, without “urinating” off those you do have. Swing and a miss. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:28 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

CGC is trying to streamline grades across all collectibles which would have certain benefits, I get it. They are going to need a lot of people to get on board with this for it become mainstream, the end customers, competitors, ANA, etc.. It will be interesting to see everyone's reaction, or lack there of, in the next six months or so. Maybe it just exists along side everything else, but that would just be a slow death for this new venture. I would think that everyone would need to get on board with this for it to succeed, or there would need to be such an overwhelming positive response and demand for this that it will force everyone else to accept it. 

I wish they had announced this on Monday so we could have had Kurt get the ANA's board of directors reaction to this. 

My guess is they’d hate it on a 6-2 vote. One guy was absent and it seems there’s ALWAYS 2 votes against the rest, nearly regardless of the question. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:16 AM, JT2 said:

WOW this is awesome.... Really doesn't matter to me . Nothing that late in life ever gets slabbed by me...........  If it is only worth face value why put it in a slab unless these are for  the "AMWAY" coins  you know Nui islands and the maeshal island...... etc...

Are you TRYING to wreck Nuie’s economy, or what? “Should we make coins or go to the beach?” 

Edited November 17, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:28 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

CGC is trying to streamline grades across all collectibles which would have certain benefits, I get it. They are going to need a lot of people to get on board with this for it become mainstream, the end customers, competitors, ANA, etc.. It will be interesting to see everyone's reaction, or lack there of, in the next six months or so. Maybe it just exists along side everything else, but that would just be a slow death for this new venture. I would think that everyone would need to get on board with this for it to succeed, or there would need to be such an overwhelming positive response and demand for this that it will force everyone else to accept it. 

I wish they had announced this on Monday so we could have had Kurt get the ANA's board of directors reaction to this. 

It sounds like this is basically for people who want their American Eagle coins graded. If this removes those pieces from the queue for getting “regular” coins graded, well … lemonade from lemons. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

It looks like CCG is putting together "packs" of coins to be sold starting in Jan 2023. I can't wait for the NGCX board game to come out, and then the TV series. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:24 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

It looks like CCG is putting together "packs" of coins to be sold starting in Jan 2023. I can't wait for the NGCX board game to come out, and then the TV series. 

Wait, wait, wait, wait. RANDOMIZATION?!?!? “I’m getting a bad feeling about this.” Are they now saying the “quiet part” out loud?

Edited November 17, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

For a while will they just mark labels with both grading systems, or maybe that will just be an option.

[Possible revenue generator for dual grading as an option for those who still want to see the 70 grade?]

Edited November 17, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:35 AM, EagleRJO said:

For a while I assume they will just mark labels with both grading systems, or maybe that will just be an option.

Nope, I’d never assume that at all. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:24 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

NGCX board game to come out, and then the TV series. 

“Gotta catch ‘em all.” Take a Pikachu coins.