Just FYI, NGC has rendered their opinion on this coin which I have included at the bottom of this first page: Authentic NGC slab or not? Counterfeit or not? 1 1

[GBrad]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:16 PM, VKurtB said:

The seams are ultrasonically sealed rather than with hot metal. 

Yes, I actually knew that now that you mentioned it.  Not sure what I was thinking when I said heat sealed.... duh!.  Thanks for the correction.  

[VKurtB]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:22 PM, GBrad said:

Yes, I actually knew that now that you mentioned it.  Not sure what I was thinking when I said heat sealed.... duh!.  Thanks for the correction.  

Heat is Brownian motion. There are several ways to get it. Ultrasonic vibration is the source for the plastics used in coin slabs. 

[GBrad]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:23 PM, gmarguli said:

As for the "coins", I think it is the same coin with just different lighting. 

According to NGC, this is not the same coin.

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:26 PM, VKurtB said:

Heat is Brownian motion. There are several ways to get it. Ultrasonic vibration is the source for the plastics used in coin slabs. 

Brownian motion is the random movement of atoms.  It has nothing to do with ultrasonic sealing.

High frequency sound waves are the energy source responsible for the increased vibration of the molecules in the thermoplastic, not changes to random motion

https://www.nexpcb.com/blog/the-basics-of-ultrasonic-welding-technology#:~:text=Ultrasonic Welding Technology uses high-frequency vibrations (ultrasonic) to,waves vibrate 10's of thousands of times per-second.

[gmarguli]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:30 PM, GBrad said:

According to NGC, this is not the same coin.

I think they're wrong. I think they are being thrown off by two low quality pictures that were taken with vastly different amounts of light and at different angles. 

I see too many things that appear to match up. 

[VKurtB]

Just for those keeping score:

gmarguli - wrong

Just Bob - wrong

Coinbuf - wrong

GBrad - correct

Alex in PA - first wrong, then correct

Edited May 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[gmarguli]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Just for those keeping score:

gmarguli - wrong

Just Bob - wrong

Coinbuf - wrong

GBrad - correct

Alex in PA - first wrong, then correct

According to who? NGC, who is looking at the same lousy pics that everyone else is.

I didn't even look at the reverse when I made my opinion. Looking at the reverse on the "NGC coin" and on "OP's coin", I'm more convinced than before that it is the same coin. 

Let's buy the coin and send it to NGC for review. It's got a $240 sticker on it. We can each chip in $20. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:26 PM, gmarguli said:

According to who? NGC, who is looking at the same lousy pics that everyone else is.

I didn't even look at the reverse when I made my opinion. Looking at the reverse on the "NGC coin" and on "OP's coin", I'm more convinced than before that it is the same coin. 

Let's buy the coin and send it to NGC for review. It's got a $240 sticker on it. We can each chip in $20. 

I think it’s already going back to NGC, and frankly if you cannot see the VAST differences here, I suggest a new optometrist. BTW, I still haven’t seen two reverses. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[gmarguli]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:39 PM, VKurtB said:

I think it’s already going back to NGC, and frankly if you cannot see the VAST differences here, I suggest a new optometrist. BTW, I still haven’t seen two reverses. 

There is the one in the first post that OP took with the brown color behind the coin and there is the one NGC took with the black background behind the coin. If you'd like, I can give you the name of my optometrist. 

[VKurtB]

What ever that creature is in the obverse, LOOK AT THE TIP OF THE “NOSE”. It is not even remotely the same shape. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:53 PM, gmarguli said:

There is the one in the first post that OP took with the brown color behind the coin and there is the one NGC took with the black background behind the coin. If you'd like, I can give you the name of my optometrist. 

Not enough resolution on the small image to see anything. 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/28/2022 at 1:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Just for those keeping score:

gmarguli - wrong

Just Bob - wrong

Coinbuf - wrong

GBrad - correct

Alex in PA - first wrong, then correct

Just the type of petty and childlike reply I have come to expect of you.   So you finally got one right, good for you little man good for you.

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:18 PM, Coinbuf said:

Just the type of petty and childlike reply I have come to expect of you.   So you finally got one right, good for you little man good for you.

Aww geez, I take it you won’t be present when I get my ANA Glenn Smedley Award then, huh?

[gmarguli]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Not enough resolution on the small image to see anything. 

You can match up some of the dark spots. The odds of a counterfeiter taking the time to match up some spots on a fake and not others is next to nil. 

I may be wrong, but I'm sticking to them being the same coin. And this coin shows as still being available on the dealers website.

[VKurtB]

It’s not about being wrong, @Coinbuf, it’s about being so obviously and indisputably wrong. There was only way those two coins were EVER going to be the same, and that’s if it was taken out of the slab and heavily tooled and machined. 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:24 PM, VKurtB said:

Aww geez, I take it you won’t be present when I get my ANA Glenn Smedley Award then, huh?

Which kindergarten will that be taking place at?   Sadly the adults in the room will have to be working.

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:29 PM, gmarguli said:

You can match up some of the dark spots. The odds of a counterfeiter taking the time to match up some spots on a fake and not others is next to nil. 

I may be wrong, but I'm sticking to them being the same coin. And this coin shows as still being available on the dealers website.

NONE OF THE DARK SPOTS MATCH!!! Are we even looking at the same pictures?

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:30 PM, Coinbuf said:

Which kindergarten will that be taking place at?   Sadly the adults in the room will have to be working.

I’m retired after a long career and 59 years as a numismatist. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:23 PM, gmarguli said:

As for the "coins", I think it is the same coin with just different lighting. 

Agreed.  Sorry about the slabs - memory ain't what it used to be.  

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:33 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Agreed.  Sorry about the slabs - memory ain't what it used to be.  

Not that it’s dispositive; I frankly don’t know. But the change in ink color from NGC blue to NGC brown is fascinating. I’ve never seen that happen. 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:32 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m retired after a long career and 59 years as a numismatist. 

Children always have to thump their chest in an attempt to prove themself, a man has no need for such childish behavior.

[VKurtB]

To not even be a little suspicious it’s a fake???? That’s just amazing, intellectually lazy, and frankly, alarming. You can’t be THAT credulous and be taken seriously. 

[gmarguli]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:35 PM, VKurtB said:

Not that it’s dispositive; I frankly don’t know. But the change in ink color from NGC blue to NGC brown is fascinating. I’ve never seen that happen. 

I guess you've never seen a PCGS TrueView. Not only can the colors change, colors that aren't even visible can suddenly become vibrant in the pictures. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:47 PM, gmarguli said:

I guess you've never seen a PCGS TrueView. Not only can the colors change, colors that aren't even visible can suddenly become vibrant in the pictures. 

You’re right, I’ve never studied PCGS TrueViews. Are we talking the hologram part, or something else? Did they put color shifting ink on them like on high value currency? I am 100% NGC by choice. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

Here’s my point. Be more suspicious and less credulous when facing a slab. I’ve sat through too many ICTA and other anti-counterfeiting committee meetings (long ones too) to be so trusting just because I see a NGC or PCGS logo in front of me. Like they used to say about the PGA on TV, but it now applies to counterfeiters, “these guys are good!”  NCG and PCGS are NOT collateral damage.  They ARE THE TARGETS. It would be great if this were a fairly secure hobby. It just isn’t. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by VKurtB

[Coinbuf]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:56 PM, VKurtB said:

I think it’s a fake slab with a fake coin in it. But I am aware not to fully trust photos. 

In your pompous rush to pat yourself on the back you seem to have forgotten what you said earlier in this thread, yet now you claim victory biased only on those same photos.    So as you don't trust photos just how is it that now you can state unequivocally that is a fake with only the same photos.   Also, nobody in this thread has once said that it has to be good because it is in an NGC slab, you are just making things up as you go in an attempt to cover your BS.

Just the other day you jumped on another member and posted: "That’s just meanness for its own sake. I’d say I expected more of you, but no, really I didn’t."   I believe that there is an old saying about the pot calling the kettle black.   You're post earlier was just childish, spiteful and hateful; the same exact behavior that you just displayed.   I guess the rules are different for you. 

And just to set the record straight; I never said it could not be a fake, just that I could not condemn it from just these two sets of photos alone.   At least I'm man enough to say that I don't know everything mr know it all, like I said good for you little man.

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:04 PM, Coinbuf said:

In your pompous rush to pat yourself on the back you seem to have forgotten what you said earlier in this thread, yet now you claim victory biased only on those same photos.    So as you don't trust photos just how is it that now you can state unequivocally that is a fake with only the same photos.   Also, nobody in this thread has once said that it has to be good because it is in an NGC slab, you are just making things up as you go in an attempt to cover your BS.

Just the other day you jumped on another member and posted: "That’s just meanness for its own sake. I’d say I expected more of you, but no, really I didn’t."   I believe that there is an old saying about the pot calling the kettle black.   You're post earlier was just childish, spiteful and hateful; the same exact behavior that you just displayed.   I guess the rules are different for you. 

And just to set the record straight; I never said it could not be a fake, just that I could not condemn it from just these two sets of photos alone.   At least I'm man enough to say that I don't know everything mr know it all, like I said good for you little man.

As a rule, I try never to gauge much at all with photos. but in THIS THREAD IN PARTICULAR, there was too much I was reading that I just couldn’t believe, so I went and borrowed a larger screen from my wife and blew up what we had to work with here, which yes, I wish could be more. AT NO TIME DID I SAY THESE WERE THE SAME COIN, @Coinbuf and you darned well know it. The larger screen confirmed what I saw on my iPhone SE, kind of to my surprise, cuz I had always assumed you and Just Bob and gmarguli were all pretty sharp. I tried, I REALLY  STINKING TRIED to see this case as you did, but the more I looked, the more obviously wrong you guys got. The ADDED truth is GBrad and I have MET in person and I have a high degree of trust and respect for his “eye”, something I will not give to Internet denizens by and large.  So no, stick it where the moon don’t shine, Coinbuf. You blew this call really badly. 

[VKurtB]

Postscript: (the quiet part out loud) Highly prominent numismatic dealers, nationally known major figures, admit behind closed doors that fakes, mostly but not exclusively Chinese, are becoming so good that even they can’t tell the difference sometimes. They won’t admit this in public, because when it comes to bullion coins, it would destroy the legality of gold and silver IRA accounts. And that is what they care about most. 

[gmarguli]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:35 PM, VKurtB said:

But the change in ink color from NGC blue to NGC brown is fascinating. I’ve never seen that happen. 

NGC pic using Photoshop autocorrect options.

[VKurtB]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:12 PM, gmarguli said:

NGC pic using Photoshop autocorrect options.

Okay, but doesn’t both the bluish cast of the slab insert AND the coin look a little overdone to you? Of course so much is screen dependent. I do have a “warm preference” eye, admittedly. The excess blue on most people’s TV’s drive me straight up the wall. I set all my screens to 5,000 degrees Kelvin. 
 

I have only one NGC slabbed ancient, but it’s not this vintage. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by VKurtB