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Just FYI, NGC has rendered their opinion on this coin which I have included at the bottom of this first page: Authentic NGC slab or not? Counterfeit or not?
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76 posts in this topic

I'm out of town for the day and did a quick search for coin dealers around the area I'm in.  I have not seen this NGC graded and slabbed Ancient in person, only what you are seeing in these photos from this company's website.  Anyone here see anything that looks unusual?  I checked the Cert. # and it comes back to this coin. The color of the label and the NGC emblem were the first things I noticed.  Would the label inside the slab discolor to this extreme over time depending on when it was slabbed? Just curious if anyone sees something fishy here or I'm looking too deep into this. First three pics are from the business. The fourth pic is obviously straight of NGC's Cert. verification page. Thank you as always.   

EDIT: I just realized you may have to click on the first picture in order for it to open up in another screen in order to show the entire slab.  Not sure why.  All I'm seeing on the post is a narrow woodgrain line.  Sorry. 

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unnamed-2-1.jpg

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Image 5-25-22 at 5.05 PM.jpg

Edited by GBrad
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Here is a side by side of the obverse of this coin.  I did a quick copy and paste and please excuse my writing.  

Screen Shot 2022-05-25 at 5.12.03 PM.jpeg

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On 5/25/2022 at 5:19 PM, Lem E said:

The coin itself looks different to me. Could be lighting though. 

Yes, it looks completely different to me as well.  There are details on NGC's picture of the coin that are not on the store's picture vice versa.  Looks awfully suspicious to me.  I just sent NGC an email in the event they want to check it out.  

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On 5/25/2022 at 5:21 PM, Lem E said:

0F416292-92CB-4D25-8DD7-43D0728F88F1.jpeg

Yup, that was the first area that caught my attention as well, that extra length of "nose" if that's what that is (I am by no means an Ancient coin guy).  Not only that, but the bottom of the coin looks totally different as well as all of the details and designs on the right side of the coin.  

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I see what looks like a lot of differences as well. I know lighting can make things look different in pics but thats a lot to me.

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On 5/25/2022 at 6:22 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I am not a Ancient Guy, a little old maybe but I don't like it. There are a lot of discrepancy's 

Hey JP. Yeah, I think it is pretty obvious that this one is not legit. At least that is the way I am seeing it both by the examples I've posted and the feedback thus far on this post.  I have not heard back from NGC as of yet, but I would definitely like to receive a response from them to see what their opinion is on this one. Hopefully they will take a look at it. Thanks! 

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On 5/25/2022 at 6:06 PM, VKurtB said:

8FEDA881-4B1F-43C5-A279-E6FEBF501574.jpeg.fd547f1a0b099c7eec1d6fd482e5deec.jpeg

If only Princes Leia was in that picture......... 😞.  

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I think it is the same coin but the lighting/editing is vastly different and making some of the details disappear, along with making the label seem washed out.   Would need an in hand look to really make the call.

Edited by Coinbuf
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On 5/25/2022 at 5:37 PM, Lem E said:

I see what looks like a lot of differences as well. I know lighting can make things look different in pics but thats a lot to me.

I totally agree with you on the lighting issue.  However, there are just way too many discrepancies involved with this one in my opinion.  From different shapes, design elements, and the slab label itself, just too much going on here.  

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On 5/25/2022 at 9:40 PM, Coinbuf said:

I think it is the same coin but the lighting/editing is vastly different and making some of the details disappear, along with making the label seem washed out.

It very well could be, I can't argue that point at all.  It appears that there are numerous missing designs which I would think light should reflect off of regardless of the type of light or lighting angle.  I am by no means an expert on photography, but would it not appear that there are missing designs in the areas I've circled here? 

Screen Shot 2022-05-25 at 5.12.03 PM.jpeg

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On 5/25/2022 at 7:52 PM, GBrad said:

It very well could be, I can't argue that point at all.  It appears that there are numerous missing designs which I would think light should reflect off of regardless of the type of light or lighting angle.  I am by no means an expert on photography, but would it not appear that there are missing designs in the areas I've circled here? 

 

I agree that the coin looks different, but I do not see any signs in the first pic to show that the slab has been tampered with, so my reaction is that the differences are in the photo lighting and/or editing.    I will say that I know zero about ancients so it would be very interesting to hear from a member that is well versed to know if there are two coins that look this alike yet apart and the value difference between them if so.

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On 5/25/2022 at 9:58 PM, Coinbuf said:

I will say that I know zero about ancients

That makes two of us brother! I would however like for an experienced Ancient member to chime in though. For now, I will stick to my trusty ol' coppers.  (thumbsu

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 I have heard there are real looking slabs out there with real looking coins in them. So maybe both need to be looked at?

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On 5/26/2022 at 5:08 AM, J P Mashoke said:

 I have heard there are real looking slabs out there with real looking coins in them. So maybe both need to be looked at?

That is more of what I was alluding to which I should have made more clear throughout my post. This has been going on quite a bit from what I have read.  

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On 5/26/2022 at 11:16 AM, GBrad said:

That is more of what I was alluding to which I should have made more clear throughout my post. This has been going on quite a bit from what I have read.  

I think it’s a fake slab with a fake coin in it. But I am aware not to fully trust photos. 

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On 5/26/2022 at 4:56 PM, VKurtB said:

I think it’s a fake slab with a fake coin in it. But I am aware not to fully trust photos. 

Hey Kurt. Yes, those are my same thoughts and gut feeling.  I looked more closely at the plastic holder today and the three "heat sealed" dots (for a lack of better terms as I know the entire holder is heat sealed) on the left side of the holder do not even look the same as that of the authentic NGC holder.  There's also a discrepancy at the bottom of the holder regarding this same "sealing" issue. There also appears to be a very prominent black carbon spot on the obverse of the NGC coin at about the 9:30 position (between the rim and center of the coin) that is not seen on the suspect coin.  

I contacted NGC today by phone after also sending emails to them yesterday.  I just received an email response from an NGC representative several minutes ago who requested more info. regarding this issue.  I responded to their request.  NGC is obviously closed for the day, but I was glad to have gotten correspondence from them in which it appears they intend to investigate this further.  I will keep the post up to date as I hear more from them.  Thanks.   

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On 5/26/2022 at 5:16 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[I am going to withhold comment until someone gets David Vagi (NGC Ancients) on the wire for his take on all this...] 

Hello Quintus.  I contacted NGC today and spoke with a representative regarding this coin.  During my conversation, I did respectfully request that David Vagi be notified of this one due to his knowledge of Ancients.  We shall see where it goes from here. Thanks.(thumbsu

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I think JustBob and Coinbuf are correct.  I call to mid the difference you see when you compare Trueview with a eBay or seller's picture.  It's almost like looking at two different coins in the same holder.  Is that an NGC Edge View Holder?

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On 5/26/2022 at 5:21 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I think JustBob and Coinbuf are correct.

Hello Alex.  I really do hope JustBob and Coinbuf are correct. I think anything like this (if found to be fraudulent) not only hurts numismatics and collectors, but can also have an indirect impact on our forum host as well.  I simply could not sit on the sidelines with this one so I chose to pursue it.  

If I am wasting my time, then I've wasted my time, no big deal to me. I had simply rather put forth the effort to verify this one as opposed not to.  If this does happen to turn out to be a fake, then I am grateful for the opportunity in getting one more of them off the market for our great hobby.  Just my humble opinion here my friend.

I completely respect, and truly appreciate, everyone's comments here on this topic. Maybe we are looking at a result of lighting and photography issues, but on the flip side, maybe we are not. I value everyone's opinion here for sure!

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On 5/26/2022 at 6:44 PM, GBrad said:

(if found to be fraudulent) not only hurts numismatics and collectors,

Absolutely and I recollect the folks ATS have had several counterfeit holders with real (but not the original) coins in them.  The people who do this counterfeit ae getting better by the day.  I remember when it was only coins and now it's the holders too.  I believe, but I'm not sure, one of those PCGS counterfeits was the holder, label, substitute coin, CAC sticker.  

 

On 5/26/2022 at 6:44 PM, GBrad said:

Maybe we are looking at a result of lighting and photography issues

I may be wrongs, my memory is not what it used to be but I 'think' even a decade ago if you cracked an NGC holder something turned a different color.  Maybe someone from NGC could tell me whether I'm wrong about that.

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On 5/26/2022 at 4:19 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I may be wrongs, my memory is not what it used to be but I 'think' even a decade ago if you cracked an NGC holder something turned a different color.

Nope. If you pee in the pool it turns a different color. If you break a slab open, you just have a broken slab. 

As for the "coins", I think it is the same coin with just different lighting. 

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After speaking with NGC customer service yesterday about my concerns surrounding this coin, I was asked to supply the link to this post along with the coin dealer's website.  Evidently, this information was quickly forwarded to the appropriate department at NGC.  Below is the email response I received earlier today from the gentleman at NGC whom I have been in touch with via email regarding this coin.  I do not know which NGC authenticator made this determination. I responded to this individual at NGC, who supplied this information, with a few other questions and concerns of mine.  I have now viewed other NGC slabbed ancient coins, on this same dealer's website, which also appear to be counterfeit, in my opinion.  I just wanted to share this response from NGC as to the authenticity of this coin (why he mentioned my "patience" I do not know. I think a response in about 24 hours was extremely fast!!).  Thank you all.  

Copy and pasted response from NGC:

 

Hello Greg, 
 
Thank you for your email and your patience. I have reached out to the verification department and they advised me that based on the images, these are not the same coins. Even the core looks different. From what limited evidence we have, it seems someone took our original product, cracked it, replaced the genuine coin with one that appears to be counterfeit, and then re-slabbed it. 
 
If you have any questions, please let me know.

Have a wonderful day,
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On 5/27/2022 at 8:52 PM, GBrad said:

After speaking with NGC customer service yesterday about my concerns surrounding this coin, I was asked to supply the link to this post along with the coin dealer's website.  Evidently, this information was quickly forwarded to the appropriate department at NGC.  Below is the email response I received earlier today from the gentleman at NGC whom I have been in touch with via email regarding this coin.  I do not know which NGC authenticator made this determination. I responded to this individual at NGC, who supplied this information, with a few other questions and concerns of mine.  I have now viewed other NGC slabbed ancient coins, on this same dealer's website, which also appear to be counterfeit, in my opinion.  I just wanted to share this response from NGC as to the authenticity of this coin (why he mentioned my "patience" I do not know. I think a response in about 24 hours was extremely fast!!).  Thank you all.  

Copy and pasted response from NGC:

 

Hello Greg, 
 
Thank you for your email and your patience. I have reached out to the verification department and they advised me that based on the images, these are not the same coins. Even the core looks different. From what limited evidence we have, it seems someone took our original product, cracked it, replaced the genuine coin with one that appears to be counterfeit, and then re-slabbed it. 
 
If you have any questions, please let me know.

Have a wonderful day,

I suggest several posters on this thread were too gullible. It wasn’t even close to being right. Sounds to me like more people need to understand how utterly pervasive fakes are, even in slabs. Just one more reason I like to deal eyeball to eyeball. Be far more suspicious. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 5/26/2022 at 5:17 PM, GBrad said:

Hey Kurt. Yes, those are my same thoughts and gut feeling.  I looked more closely at the plastic holder today and the three "heat sealed" dots (for a lack of better terms as I know the entire holder is heat sealed) on the left side of the holder do not even look the same as that of the authentic NGC holder.  There's also a discrepancy at the bottom of the holder regarding this same "sealing" issue. There also appears to be a very prominent black carbon spot on the obverse of the NGC coin at about the 9:30 position (between the rim and center of the coin) that is not seen on the suspect coin.  

I contacted NGC today by phone after also sending emails to them yesterday.  I just received an email response from an NGC representative several minutes ago who requested more info. regarding this issue.  I responded to their request.  NGC is obviously closed for the day, but I was glad to have gotten correspondence from them in which it appears they intend to investigate this further.  I will keep the post up to date as I hear more from them.  Thanks.   

The seams are ultrasonically sealed rather than with hot metal. 

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