If a coin is not in a plastic slab is it.... 0

[RWB]

...."Naked and Afraid?"

OR merely "Unclothed and Paranoid?"

[GoldFinger1969]

Newly found OR not worth much $$$.  Most valuable coins above their metallic content have been graded and certified by now.

Not all....most. 

 

[J P M]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:29 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Newly found OR not worth much $$$.  Most valuable coins above their metallic content have been graded and certified by now.

Not all....most. 

 

I would not be to sure about that I have been to a few coin shops that don't put the real good stuff out front and have really big safes in the back. You did say not all .LoL

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:48 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I would not be to sure about that I have been to a few coin shops that don't put the real good stuff out front and have really big safes in the back. You did say not all .LoL

Gold coins ?  Probably generic commons like the coins you are considering.  If they know it is going to be sold as a bullion subsitute, they probably realize that most buyers don't care that it's not graded/slabbed.

[J P M]

There may still be a large generation of old-timers like Kurt who don't care if there coins have a grade they know what the coin is worth therefore no need to put it in plastic. I like slabs only for the benefit for my family to not have to guess what it is after I am gone . The Half Eagle Indian I posted in the other thread was a tray coin before I got it. Not that it is a extremely valuable coin but I think there are still some big collections out there without plastic on them.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:20 PM, J P Mashoke said:

There may still be a large generation of old-timers like Kurt who don't care if there coins have a grade they know what the coin is worth therefore no need to put it in plastic. I like slabs only for the benefit for my family to not have to guess what it is after I am gone . The Half Eagle Indian I posted in the other thread was a tray coin before I got it. Not that it is a extremely valuable coin but I think there are still some big collections out there without plastic on them.

Oh there probably are....and there are also mini-hoards (not sure about Big Hoards).  But you've had an explosion in gold and silver prices since the TPGs first came around and anybody COGNIZANT of what they have probably realizes condition rarity and year of mintage determine riches.  So many/most have probably been found.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong.  Still hoping we find more of the rare coins even if it would wreak havoc on the pricing structure. 

[JT2]

I have hundreds of Morgans, Barber Helfs, Barber Quarters, Mercs that are gem and or brinllant unc not inthe silly plastic holders.  of course i started collecting in the 70's before they had TPGs  and back then only the most expensive went into plastic holders ...

[J P M]

  I was at a shop down south last summer and I was looking at some Morgan's. Nothing in the shop was in slabs everything was as is or in 2X2. I looked on one shelf and he had some CC's I said wow you don't see a lot of those sitting on the shelf's nowadays. He was a cool guy and we had a lot in common he took me over to his safe that was a 4 foot tall tank opened it up and he had tubes upon tubes of CC's and other collectable coins. He grabbed some tubes opened them up and slid them CC's out like they were a can of Pringle potato chips. Real nice stuff toned and MS.  He winked at me and said he was going to be closing shop soon and retire. Coin collectors are few and far between nowadays with internet availability, but he would never go hungry.  

Edited March 19, 2022 by J P Mashoke

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:30 PM, J P Mashoke said:

  I was at a shop down south last summer and I was looking at some Morgan's. Nothing in the shop was in slabs everything was as is or in 2X2. I looked on one shelf and he had some CC's I said wow you don't see a lot of those sitting on the shelf's nowadays. He was a cool guy and we had a lot in common he took me over to his safe that was a 4 foot tall tank opened it up and he had tubes upon tubes of CC's and other collectable coins. He grabbed some tubes opened them up and slid them CC's out like they were a can of Pringle potato chips. Real nice stuff toned and MS.  He winked at me and said he was going to be closing shop soon and retire. Coin collectors are few and far between nowadays with internet availability, but he would never go hungry.  

What's he gonna do with his inventory ?  Older guy or just wants to retire ?

[J P M]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What's he gonna do with his inventory ?  Older guy or just wants to retire ?

He said he was going to do the same as others. Sell his stuff on the internet if he wanted or needed to. I went back at Thanksgiving and his shop was gone. 

[Chris Mikesh]

I'll put in my 2 bits.  I bumped into an old antique store but he had a whole room full of great currency and coins.  Lot's of CC Morgans and a bunch of hard to find stuff.  Yup.. Like you JP, we hit it off.  He asked me to go into the other room, and he opened the safe.  He called me back in and I nearly choked.  1878 CC Morgan, 1836 Capped Bust Half, 1882 O/S Morgan, and a 1928 (P) Peace Dollar just to name a few.  And that was what he was willing to sell to a 'good home' at that time.  He knew that I knew what I was looking at.  Well...now I get to look at them anytime I want to as we made a great deal for both of us.  He was more interested that the coins didn't go to a scalper - and they won't.  These are going to my Grandkids.

Sorry the details are lacking but the O over S Mint mark is really there.  I was stunned at the quality (and non-magnetic too!).

So yeah, not everything is in capsules (YET!)  I just hope I can buy more from him before he passes away.  He is 93.  I'll see him again next week.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Some Early American Copper enthusiast have been known to crack high quality coins out of their holders and keep them in cotton lined envelopes.  I am not one of those enthusiasts, but I know there are quite a few high-end copper coins that are completely TPG-naked.

Edited March 19, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[J P M]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:41 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

I'll put in my 2 bits.  I bumped into an old antique store but he had a whole room full of great currency and coins.  Lot's of CC Morgans and a bunch of hard to find stuff.  Yup.. Like you JP, we hit it off.  He asked me to go into the other room, and he opened the safe.  He called me back in and I nearly choked.  1878 CC Morgan, 1836 Capped Bust Half, 1882 O/S Morgan, and a 1928 (P) Peace Dollar just to name a few.  And that was what he was willing to sell to a 'good home' at that time.  He knew that I knew what I was looking at.  Well...now I get to look at them anytime I want to as we made a great deal for both of us.  He was more interested that the coins didn't go to a scalper - and they won't.  These are going to my Grandkids.

Sorry the details are lacking but the O over S Mint mark is really there.  I was stunned at the quality (and non-magnetic too!).

So yeah, not everything is in capsules (YET!)  I just hope I can buy more from him before he passes away.  He is 93.  I'll see him again next week.

Chris , Is there a lot of green showing on that Morgan ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:41 PM, Chris Mikesh said:

I'll put in my 2 bits.  I bumped into an old antique store but he had a whole room full of great currency and coins.  Lot's of CC Morgans and a bunch of hard to find stuff.  Yup.. Like you JP, we hit it off.  He asked me to go into the other room, and he opened the safe.  He called me back in and I nearly choked.  1878 CC Morgan, 1836 Capped Bust Half, 1882 O/S Morgan, and a 1928 (P) Peace Dollar just to name a few.  I was stunned at the quality (and non-magnetic too!).

How would you have graded some of those coins, Chris ?

[Coinbuf]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:15 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Chris , Is there a lot of green showing on that Morgan ?

That poor coin has a very bad case of PVC, I would not be surprised if the surfaces have been pitted.   It also looks like a details coin due to that large scratch on the obv, I'd say XF details.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Coinbuf

[Just Bob]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:30 PM, J P Mashoke said:

  I was at a shop down south last summer and I was looking at some Morgan's. Nothing in the shop was in slabs everything was as is or in 2X2. I looked on one shelf and he had some CC's I said wow you don't see a lot of those sitting on the shelf's nowadays. He was a cool guy and we had a lot in common he took me over to his safe that was a 4 foot tall tank opened it up and he had tubes upon tubes of CC's and other collectable coins. He grabbed some tubes opened them up and slid them CC's out like they were a can of Pringle potato chips. Real nice stuff toned and MS.  He winked at me and said he was going to be closing shop soon and retire. Coin collectors are few and far between nowadays with internet availability, but he would never go hungry.  

I have a feeling that this scenario could be played out in many locations throughout this country. I really believe that there are a lot more coins in the raw than most people realize. And I don't just mean common Morgans or Walking Liberties. The idea that all of the good coins have already been slabbed is way off base, in my opinion.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:51 PM, Just Bob said:

I have a feeling that this scenario could be played out in many locations throughout this country. I really believe that there are a lot more coins in the raw than most people realize. And I don't just mean common Morgans or Walking Liberties. The idea that all of the good coins have already been slabbed is way off base, in my opinion.

To an extent, I get where you are coming from, JB.

But if those coins didn't come out during the big rise in silver/gold in 1979-80 or later booms....plus being handed down to family, friends, estate sales, or others once the original buyers/inheritors passed on in recent decades.....I don't know when they come out.

With internet access, everybody can find out what a coin is worth or how they can go about getting it evaluated (graded).  It appears from my readings that the number of mini-hoards has DECLINED in recent years/decades from when we were kids or young adults.

I hope I am wrong, as I would love for a few more dozen of our favorite tough-to-get coins show up in the population census. 

But I'm not holding my breath. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Woods020]

As I’ve started dealing I have learned so much, which was my intent. 

Firstly things aren’t as rare as we think in most cases. Using CC Morgans as a reference I have 3 wholesalers I can order rolls of them from. The scarcer dates may only be singles. I can buy most by the roll in the grade specified from BU down to VF. There is a looot of raw material out there in bulk. Same with GSA Morgans. I can buy them wholesale in bulk by the by the hundreds from multiple places. 
 

Second as already mentioned many have no interest in a slabbed coin. They may break it out or it never goes to grading. Most collections that come from a long time older collector have a large amount raw if not all. We have to remember that even though TPGs are the norm today they are a relatively recent phenomenon. 
 

Lastly as a result I am now acutely aware of population reports. I feel, particularly for common coins like Morgans, mercs, etc., that there is a lot of disappointment to come. Maybe not a bunch of top pops to be found, but I do believe a lot of gems are not included. I think we have totally become dependent on data from TPGs, which I’m not knocking I appreciate, but we forget it’s limitations sometimes. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Woods020

[RWB]

Not being in the coin business opens interesting information channels -- including collections that dealers have never heard of, and family holdings. I've been allowed to examine some fantastic pieces untouched by slabbers and grabbers.

[Coinbuf]

Being on the other side of the table is a real eyopening experience for sure @Woods020, I sort of cringed when I read the post by Chris Mikesh.   I do understand and remember when I was new to the hobby and how I thought coins were "rare", after some guidance from a good dealer, long exposure to the hobby, and trips to a large show really showed me just how much I really did not know and just how not rare most coins are not.   Even low mintage coins are seldom truly rare, just tougher to locate (nice) and more expensive to buy.

[VKurtB]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Oh there probably are....and there are also mini-hoards (not sure about Big Hoards).  But you've had an explosion in gold and silver prices since the TPGs first came around and anybody COGNIZANT of what they have probably realizes condition rarity and year of mintage determine riches.  So many/most have probably been found.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong.  Still hoping we find more of the rare coins even if it would wreak havoc on the pricing structure. 

This all depends on where the coins are, and what they are. The recently concluded Ken Bressett sale in Colorado Springs featured U.S. coins that were almost all slabbed, and British, Roman, and Greek  coins that were all raw. “Give the people what they want.” 
 

In my prior home area of south central Pennsylvania, finding slabbed coins is kind of unusual. Most of the best stuff at auction remains raw there. That is slooooowly changing, but has a very long way to go. 

[Alex in PA.]

You know, if some of this is true, why do we not see these "rolls of CC's" up for sale?  Or maybe we do, eh?

1878-1893 GEM BU CC Carson City Morgan Silver Dollar $ From OBW Roll Estate Sale  (seller 295+ negatives)

RARE Binion's Horseshoe Las Vegas $20 Dollar Roll Casino POKER WORLD SERIES '60s  (seller says "“Opening it is totally at the risk of the buyer. We do not recommend opening the roll as the value ”... Read more)  No retunds

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:04 AM, VKurtB said:

This all depends on where the coins are, and what they are. The recently concluded Ken Bressett sale in Colorado Springs featured U.S. coins that were almost all slabbed, and British, Roman, and Greek  coins that were all raw. “Give the people what they want.” 

I don't doubt that between the U.S. and Europe, most ancient/foreign coins are probably raw.  We probably have only scratched the surface there.

OTOH....considering that the major coin dealers and big-time collectors had representatives (like Paul Wittlin) stationed in Europe scouring banks for U.S. gold coins, the low-hanging fruit has probably been picked.  Post-1950, you had to have feet on the ground to find out.  Today, with technology, probably not as critical.

However, I wonder about stray hoards in Central and South America.  Mexico and Canada, too.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:04 AM, VKurtB said:

In my prior home area of south central Pennsylvania, finding slabbed coins is kind of unusual. Most of the best stuff at auction remains raw there. That is slooooowly changing, but has a very long way to go. 

That's not surprising.  Anybody with certified coins probably has made separate arrangements that their heirs/estate should contact a specific person to sell them or that they should go to a dealer to sell them and not sell them at an estate or garage sale.

[Coinbuf]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:55 AM, Alex in PA. said:

You know, if some of this is true, why do we not see these "rolls of CC's" up for sale?  Or maybe we do, eh?

1878-1893 GEM BU CC Carson City Morgan Silver Dollar $ From OBW Roll Estate Sale  (seller 295+ negatives)

RARE Binion's Horseshoe Las Vegas $20 Dollar Roll Casino POKER WORLD SERIES '60s  (seller says "“Opening it is totally at the risk of the buyer. We do not recommend opening the roll as the value ”... Read more)  No retunds

There are some good reasons that you do not see wholesalers dumping large amounts of rolls or coins into the retail market.  For one that is not their role in the market, and secondly it would crash the Morgan market.   Yes there are not likely to be huge hordes of rare old gold, or 1700's bust dollars, however a few pockets here and there will continue to surface randomly.   But there are already too many Morgan dollars available, more than the market can currently absorb in reality.   Even the "rare" dates and CC dollars are not difficult to locate in the market now, and there is already a surplus of most coins.   It is no secret that a complete set (or very close to) of Morgan dollars could be put together at any large show.   So if all the GSA's, CC's, and 81-S's that are being held on the sidelines were introduced into the market an already saturated market would crash.

[RWB]

Excellent points, Coinbuf. However much we happen to enjoy this hobby, it is tiny, has a tiny market segment, and correspondingly minuscule ability to absorb new material. A handful of coins from certain date/mint combinations would crash the "value" of "rarities."

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:41 PM, RWB said:

Excellent points, Coinbuf. However much we happen to enjoy this hobby, it is tiny, has a tiny market segment, and correspondingly minuscule ability to absorb new material. A handful of coins from certain date/mint combinations would crash the "value" of "rarities."

Depends.  If it is already a common or mostly bullion piece (i.e., 1908 No Mottos and the Wells Fargo Hoard) then the price decline might be miniscule.

OTOH...if the 1933's at Fort Knox ever get released, the value of the sole 1933 crashes. 

Price declines and non-sales of coins in the 1950's from what I have read were CLEARLY IMPACTED by the small numbers of rare coins coming back from Europe via Paul Wittlin and others like him.

Edited March 21, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

As a reminder...remember how these rankings changed over the decades:

Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's:

ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S

SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D

RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S

SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1932, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D

 

Rarity Rankings, 2000’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921

SUPER-RARE…….1920-S, 1931, 1932

RARE………………1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D

SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1926-S, 1924S 

 

Rarity Rankings, 2020’s:

ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932

SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 

RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929

SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1926S, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S

 

[Alex in PA.]

What some have to say makes sense but................

Morgan dollars in rolls.  How many disappointments have there been that opened these, so called, OBW rolls of Morgans to find 2 CC on the ends and in between.?  Now, I have it on good authority, that there exists original bags of Morgano dollars.

[Woods020]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:55 AM, Alex in PA. said:

You know, if some of this is true, why do we not see these "rolls of CC's" up for sale?  Or maybe we do, eh?

1878-1893 GEM BU CC Carson City Morgan Silver Dollar $ From OBW Roll Estate Sale  (seller 295+ negatives)

RARE Binion's Horseshoe Las Vegas $20 Dollar Roll Casino POKER WORLD SERIES '60s  (seller says "“Opening it is totally at the risk of the buyer. We do not recommend opening the roll as the value ”... Read more)  No retunds

I was referring to reputable sources. Imperial or Rarcoa both sell rolls that are legit.