Beginner Gold Coins Thread: Indian Heads, Liberty DEs, & Saint-Gaudens DEs 0

[GoldFinger1969]

Figured a thread for those interested in any kind of gold coins might be appropriate for those collecting a bit more upscale or just interested in learning for enjoyment's sake or down the line potential buying interest.

[RWB]

[Woods020]

I am a beginner gold collector, and just picked up my first gold coin. I can’t say where I purchased it and quite honestly my German is pathetic so I only got part of it. How would you suggest I store it? I can’t find a flip or air-tite case to fit. Do you think NGC would slab this one? What do you think the grade is? Do you think NGC would rat me out, or are they cool with coins like this??

[Woods020]

As a disclaimer to any newbies that do use this thread, and I hope there are many, the above was a joke. Read the reference here for the theft of this $5.8 million dollar hunk of gold. It just hit me a newbie thread isn’t the best place for a joke 😂

https://www.macleans.ca/economy/money-economy/the-saga-of-canadas-stolen-million-dollar-coin/amp/

[J P M]

Thanks for making this thread no one talks much about gold. Not sure why ? I am not new to collecting coins but I am new to spending money on collecting. LoL This is the first Year I have made some larger purchases with my Nickels, Morgan's and some gold coins. Information about gold coins would be greatly appreciated. Like with all coins finding a deal may not always be the best way to go for a return. I find myself doing a lot more research do to the larger investment of gold. Now sometimes you get lucky. My first gold piece I purchased was a year ago April and it turned out to be a 75% gainer for me so far, and it is a way cool looking coin which was what I really was looking for first anyway.       

[Alex in PA.]

Gold is purty and warm to the touch.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:05 AM, J P Mashoke said:

Thanks for making this thread no one talks much about gold. Not sure why ?

I think it has to do with the cost.  1 oz. gold coins will cost you at least $2,000-plus.  Numismatic premium coins will cost $2,500 - $5,000.

Saints are my passion but I've only bought 4 in the last 7 years.  You have to be patient (or rich ! ) and enjoy doing lots of reading and research on these coins as you are unlikely to buy a few every month when you start out collecting these beauties.

[J P M]

I have resolved that any large purchase's from now on will be graded coins only. My second purchase was a bit of a beat up Quarter Eagle in a 2X2  the price was very nice and it was acceptable in my book for that amount but after getting it home I removed it from the paper holder to weigh it and then looking at it with the USB microscope I could see something wrong with the rim. You could see that it had a drilled out hole that had been refilled with gold ? Some time in the past it must have had a stud for a chain to hook on it. Needless to say because I got it from a reputable dealer he was happy to take it back. I was able to return it so I took the refund right there and with a little more money I grabbed a Half Eagle AU 58 graded coin as a replacement. It is banged up but the marks are all uniform so to me it makes it look naturally even everywhere. LoL  It is not a big money coin but I like it.    

[BillJones]

The price of gold makes every large coin, like the double eagle ($20, expensive now. The $2.50 coins offer a chance to get a higher grade, more attractive coin for less money. I have also seen some conservative grading for them. 

This 1905 quarter eagle is in an MS-63 holder. It's well under $1,000, but, of course, you are getting a lot less gold. 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I'll be chiming in, eventually.

I just unboxed my brand new 13" M1 MacBook Pro, and my 2011 15" MacBook Pro will soon be retired.  With the 2011 15" machine, I could proceed casually, everything fine... but as soon as I would click Photos, it would crash.  We're talking pink screen rebooting with a grey rectangle around the Apple logo, then it would crash again, and, well, its video card was shot.

This new machine is making my head spin.  Have already transferred everything from the old machine via an external Time Machine SSD.

Getting there... 

[J P M]

Well now that I have gotten my feet wet I want to show two pieces I am looking at and get some ideas from the guys who know. I have a choice on one of these I can purchase for $2300.  Both are common and are not key dates that gaining very fast. So the question is should I just grab one at that price and do a lot of praying or pass and look for a better coin down the road. The Saint has a nice knee and nose and the LH has a over all clean look. Sorry the pictures are not that great. Any comments are welcome please.

[Woods020]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:03 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Well now that I have gotten my feet wet I want to show two pieces I am looking at and get some ideas from the guys who know. I have a choice on one of these I can purchase for $2300.  Both are common and are not key dates that gaining very fast. So the question is should I just grab one at that price and do a lot of praying or pass and look for a better coin down the road. The Saint has a nice knee and nose and the LH has a over all clean look. Sorry the pictures are not that great. Any comments are welcome please.

$2300 would be a fair and accurate price for each of these coins. As far as which one as you said neither is a hard date. The 1904 Liberty head is slightly scarcer, but a grade down. I say it’s a wash it’s whichever one you like more. Money is about the same on both. Heck buy both and start a gold type set. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Woods020

[BillJones]

The 1904 double eagle is the most common Liberty Head $20 gold by far. The 1908 St. Gaudens is pretty much in the same category. They are the ideal type coins, but most of the value is in the gold they contain. If gold bullion goes down in price, so will these coins. 

[J P M]

Thank you both for your comments . I tell ya what is getting my goat is everywhere I go shopping PCGS prices are always a higher value than NGC, especially on gold coins. Same coin same grade same look it is just not right in my book. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:03 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Well now that I have gotten my feet wet I want to show two pieces I am looking at and get some ideas from the guys who know. I have a choice on one of these I can purchase for $2300.  Both are common and are not key dates that gaining very fast. So the question is should I just grab one at that price and do a lot of praying or pass and look for a better coin down the road. The Saint has a nice knee and nose and the LH has a over all clean look. Sorry the pictures are not that great. Any comments are welcome please.

First, don't forget that you can read about the 1908 No Motto Hoard story over in the RWB Saints Thread, JP.

Second, although I don't like this particular NGC holder (solid white interior), and even though I am more partial to Saints, I would probably go with the 1904 Liberty DE and wait on a No Motto.....and then, when you do want to add a 1908 NM... spend a few more $$$ and get an MS-65 CAC or even an MS-66 (or higher) No Motto. 

The surplus of 1908 NM's means that you get a lot more "bang for your buck" -- premium wise, that is -- whatever dollar amount you are willing to spend.  Just as both coins above are $2,300 but you can get an MS-64 for the No Motto vs. MS-63 for the Liberty.

Edited March 18, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Woods020]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:43 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Thank you both for your comments . I tell ya what is getting my goat is everywhere I go shopping PCGS prices are always a higher value than NGC, especially on gold coins. Same coin same grade same look it is just not right in my book. 

Early Gold is usually one of the few areas NGC excels. Prices are usually good there on NGC. But there is a clear discrepancy in many series. No denying that. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:18 PM, Woods020 said:

$2300 would be a fair and accurate price for each of these coins. As far as which one as you said neither is a hard date. 

It's an 18% premium, maybe 20% where gold is trading.  I'm wondering if both or one of the coins could be gotten for a bit cheaper price.

I remember I bought a 1915-S for spot....which basically is a 4% premium when you adjust for the 0.9675 adjustment factor.

Might pay to look at GC or HA and see if 64 1908 NM's and 63 1904 Liberty's maybe can be had for a total cost of $2,100 or so.  With the BP, maybe not -- but who knows at a local coin show or LCS.

Edited March 19, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:43 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Thank you both for your comments . I tell ya what is getting my goat is everywhere I go shopping PCGS prices are always a higher value than NGC, especially on gold coins. Same coin same grade same look it is just not right in my book. 

If you are buying a bullion coin but one that is certified, then paying up for the PCGS label is not worth it.  If you want to pay up for a NUMISMATIC gold coin, that's different.  

At least as I see it.  YMMV.   

[J P M]

On 3/18/2022 at 6:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's an 18% premium, maybe 20% where gold is trading.  I'm wondering if both or one of the coins could be gotten for a bit cheaper price.

I remember I bought a 1915-S for spot....which basically is a 4% premium when you adjust for the 0.9675 adjustment factor.

Might pay to look at GC or HA and see if 64 1908 NM's and 63 1904 Liberty's maybe can be had for a total cost of $2,100 or so.  With the BP, maybe not -- but who knows at a local coin show or LCS.

I have been hitting the auctions but by the time the last bell sounds they are all around the same $ in the end but I still try LoL 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 6:37 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I have been hitting the auctions but by the time the last bell sounds they are all around the same $ in the end but I still try LoL 

I'll check back a few months to see if the premium to the then-spot price of gold was lower....obviousley, lots of Keyboard Kollectors the last month or so as gold rose $200 during the Ukrainian situation.

I see 125-175 bids on common Saints....in the past, I can't recall ever seeing more than 30-50.  Maybe I can recall or remember 1 coin that had triple-digit number of bidders, if that.  Now I see 2 or 3 or 4 at the same time.

[J P M]

I always say, I am not in a hurry and something will come along but watching the bidding prices going up at the auctions is a little unnerving. I see coins that were toping out not long ago at just over spot now 3 or 4 bills more. It is not just gold I see my Nickels and Morgan's getting harder and harder to pick up cheap like it was 6 months ago. It is not like collectors bidding it feels more like people with money. You can tell when a coin that is not quite right just keeps getting bumped. LoL   

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:35 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I always say, I am not in a hurry and something will come along but watching the bidding prices going up at the auctions is a little unnerving. I see coins that were toping out not long ago at just over spot now 3 or 4 bills more. It is not just gold I see my Nickels and Morgan's getting harder and harder to pick up cheap like it was 6 months ago. It is not like collectors bidding it feels more like people with money. You can tell when a coin that is not quite right just keeps getting bumped. LoL   

Gold peeled off $150 in like 7 trading days so buying here is pretty good, IMO.  If the prices on the coins you saw were even a few days stale, they could be too high even adjusting for the 3% ounce differential.

[J P M]

I am going to wait until after the Sunday night auction and see what transpires before making a counter offer on the 1904 and 1908 . I don't think they will have jumped off the shelf this weekend.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:35 PM, J P Mashoke said:

It is not like collectors bidding it feels more like people with money. 

Yup...though many MIGHT become collectors.

We saw this 15 months ago with Large Denomination Bills ($500, $1,000) in lower or raw grades moving up sharply.  Folks were chasing the affordable stuff, not the PMG 63's and 65's. 

Price spikes followed.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 8:45 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I am going to wait until after the Sunday night auction and see what transpires before making a counter offer on the 1904 and 1908 . I don't think they will have jumped off the shelf this weekend.  

I would think auction prices might lag on the downside, much like gasoline prices.

Report back on what you find with the GC auctions, I'll check too and also scan HA. 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:38 PM, RWB said:

Golden threads and silver needles, will not shake…
wait a minute, that's not how it goes…

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I really need to do something about my lack of gold.  I do not have a single numismatic gold coin. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:00 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I really need to do something about my lack of gold.  I do not have a single numismatic gold coin. 

By numismatic, I include anything with a premium of over 10%.  So an MS-65 1924 qualifies.

Any coins or grades intrigue you ?

[Woods020]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's an 18% premium, maybe 20% where gold is trading.  I'm wondering if both or one of the coins could be gotten for a bit cheaper price.

I remember I bought a 1915-S for spot....which basically is a 4% premium when you adjust for the 0.9675 adjustment factor.

Might pay to look at GC or HA and see if 64 1908 NM's and 63 1904 Liberty's maybe can be had for a total cost of $2,100 or so.  With the BP, maybe not -- but who knows at a local coin show or LCS.

Doubtful in today’s market. This isn’t the market to find deals. Gold is especially on fire right now. I seriously doubt you beat that for a mint state slabbed double Eagle by much. Nothing is impossible but it will be quite the challenge to get it at $2250 even. 

[Woods020]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Gold peeled off $150 in like 7 trading days so buying here is pretty good, IMO.  If the prices on the coins you saw were even a few days stale, they could be too high even adjusting for the 3% ounce differential.

I think you believe collectors tie the price of the coins to gold price more than they actually do. No argument gold coins are primarily driven by intrinsic value, but the coins won’t fluctuate as exact as gold spot. They will go up and down, but gold spot going down $150 will do little for the coin prices. Now if you want to sell a gold coin spot sets the price for commons. But when they are sold it may fluctuate but not exactly to spot fluctuations. Graded gold does hold some numismatic value as you say. 
 

Also collectors don’t collect based solely on spot. Right now people are wanting security, and many see that in gold. I’m not wanting to get into the debate on is that a sound strategy to hedge or not, but it’s one many are taking right now. The longest lines at coin shows right now are the bullion booths. If gold goes down slightly that doesn’t mean demand will go down. And as long as demand is up prices will stay up. Given the uncertainty in the world and inflation we are seeing I would argue that gold coins and bullion are more disconnected from spot right now than most any time. Not saying there isn’t a strong correlation, but it’s not as elastic as normal. 
 

The only exceptions I know to this are the gold wholesalers. They do fluctuate real time on common gold, including graded. I was totally unaware of the gold wholesale market until recently. If anyone is looking for truly investment common gold coins, and not so much numismatic, let me know. I finally got access to two major wholesalers and a lot of the stuff is a spot + price real time. They work on tiny margins and high volume. A lot of dealers buy gold that way. Heritage is also a big player in the gold wholesale market now. The coins will be essentially like the two JP posted, many in 62/63 grades. Also if someone truly just wants gold for investment I would buy circulated. It gets even closer to spot.