Woods020 Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 1838 Seated Half Dime No Drapery, Small Stars. I picked this one up last week. What's your guess? bsshog40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 Very well struck, I cannot decern if there is any rub from the photos so I'm going with MS64, or AU58+ if there is some rub. Fun fact that you may know, the small stars on the half dime were the result of an over polished die while on the dime it was the result of a half dime punch that was used. Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 I’ll go with MS63. Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) On 3/13/2022 at 7:04 PM, Coinbuf said: the small stars on the half dime were the result of an over polished die Question - if this was the case, why are other obverse details, including edge of the cap and foot, clear? To uniformly reduce the size of stars, a considerable portion of the field would have to be removed. That would reduce everything in similar proportion. Here's the NGC photo (PCGS is similar) which has the expected loss of low relief detail. This looks very different from your photo, bottom. Edited March 13, 2022 by RWB Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 (edited) Is your coin an "original," and the ones shown by NGC and PCGS later restrikes made from clashed and rusted die? (From the photo, your coin seems to be AU55.) Edited March 13, 2022 by RWB Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 MS62 Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lem E Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I feel like I see rub but it may be lighting. Ill say AU55. My question is what is going on with the rim? Is that finning? Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) Seated coins are some of the hardest in my opinion. I often struggle with them so I thought it would be fun. One day I will get proficient with these, but for now I struggle with AU/MS. As usual Mark shows why he was paid to grade coins. It’s an MS63. I believe it’s strong for a 63 (my personal opinion) and it’s in a somewhat older slab. I bought the coin because it had pleasant original skin. I see so many of these dipped to death and I don’t pass up a reasonable price on an original coin. Edited March 14, 2022 by Woods020 Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) On 3/13/2022 at 6:51 PM, RWB said: Is your coin an "original," and the ones shown by NGC and PCGS later restrikes made from clashed and rusted die? (From the photo, your coin seems to be AU55.) I don't know for sure, but my guess is mine is an earlier die state. It is fairly well struck for the series, with the usual weakness on the middle of the denomination on the reverse. The one you posted appears to be from a later die state and I agree it looks like a rusted die. A fairly well rusted die at that. As I look at the coin you posted more it’s definitely a late die state. Look at the lack of detail in the denticles. And that arm looks like a mutant with the rust damage. Edited March 14, 2022 by Woods020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/13/2022 at 8:23 PM, Lem E said: I feel like I see rub but it may be lighting. Ill say AU55. My question is what is going on with the rim? Is that finning? Yes sir. I see a lot of fins on this series and other earlier series. Somone may know why it was more common on the earlier stuff. I am guessing, and its only a guess, that strike pressure was less consistent with the earlier presses. As a result a decent number got a little firmer strike than others. Someone may very well say that is incorrect I just know I see it somewhat often. I love seeing it because usually it will be a well struck coin, Lem E 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 A fin results from a mismatch between collar and planchet upset. It is not directly related to strike pressure. The force from a toggle press is the same with each blow, unless the spacing wedge is moved. Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) On 3/13/2022 at 10:42 PM, Woods020 said: I don't know for sure, but my guess is mine is an earlier die state. It is fairly well struck for the series, with the usual weakness on the middle of the denomination on the reverse. The one you posted appears to be from a later die state and I agree it looks like a rusted die. A fairly well rusted die at that. As I look at the coin you posted more it’s definitely a late die state. Look at the lack of detail in the denticles. And that arm looks like a mutant with the rust damage. I wonder why NGC and PCGS show the damaged die version and ignore the ones like yours? Also, I did a quick check of other small stars versions and only a small minority were like your coin - most were the messed up version. If the clashing and rust are correct, then the die had to sit unused and unprotected at least for a couple of weeks for the rust to develop. Edited March 14, 2022 by RWB Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Spud Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 I thought 63 also Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 12:21 PM, RWB said: I wonder why NGC and PCGS show the damaged die version and ignore the ones like yours? Also, I did a quick check of other small stars versions and only a small minority were like your coin - most were the messed up version. If the clashing and rust are correct, then the die had to sit unused and unprotected at least for a couple of weeks for the rust to develop. Agreed. That isn’t a small amount of surface rust on the die used for the coin in the PCGS picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 This is the plate coin at PCGS graded as MS66, ok I get that the coin has superior luster, and some areas are well struck like the top of the leg (which is notorious for weakness) as well as through the center of both sides. But all those nodes from a rusted die and the horrible perimeter strike, idk it does not look like an MS66 to me. Woods020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) On 3/14/2022 at 4:38 PM, Coinbuf said: This is the plate coin at PCGS graded as MS66, ok I get that the coin has superior luster, and some areas are well struck like the top of the leg (which is notorious for weakness) as well as through the center of both sides. But all those nodes from a rusted die and the horrible perimeter strike, idk it does not look like an MS66 to me. I agree with you. That’s why I feel the one I bought was strong for a 63. The fine detail is good for that coin. I have actually never noticed the rust as much as I do now that RWB pointed it out. Of course I guess that 66 is closer to how it left the press…..I honestly think most of the grades are solely off the contact marks and wear. I know it’s supposedly based on strike and eye appeal but it really seems that an afterthought to marks and wear. Edited March 14, 2022 by Woods020 Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 5:45 PM, Woods020 said: I guess that 66 is closer to how it left the press I suspect that's the key TPG point; however, the differences between the gross mess presented above and the coin in Woods020's post really begs explanation. But no TPG says much of anything. If the small stars are from overpolishing, then that should be clearly illustrated pre- and post-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie15 Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 this shows why I will never be a grader, I said AU55 and thought I was just a bit generous Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 (edited) On 3/14/2022 at 5:12 PM, Moxie15 said: this shows why I will never be a grader, I said AU55 and thought I was just a bit generous You and me both. The seated half dimes/dimes and Jefferson nickels I never get right. I think most small seated stuff is circulated and I have never seen a Jefferson nickel I didn’t think was over graded. Edited March 14, 2022 by Woods020 Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 4:12 PM, Moxie15 said: this shows why I will never be a grader, I said AU55 and thought I was just a bit generous Do NOT beat yourself up. Remember my 1937 Crown bought raw in England as an XF? It’s in an NGC MS65 holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie15 Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/14/2022 at 7:19 PM, VKurtB said: Do NOT beat yourself up. Remember my 1937 Crown bought raw in England as an XF? It’s in an NGC MS65 holder. this is almost expected with British coins they are very tough and often a weak strike will knock a coin out of Unc to a Good Extra Fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
