1910 VDB Lincoln Cent 1 1

[elcahall]

I'm new to coin collecting having recently inherited some coins and paper currency from my parents and have run into an interesting situation.  Some backstory:  I started researching 1909 VDB cents when I found two in my collection and ran across Dr. Sol Taylor's article about 1910 VDB Lincoln Cents (https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/signal/coins/soltaylor051008.html). After reading it I had to take a look through my handful 1910s to see if one of them could be what Dr. Taylor was looking for.

Well, I think I found one and am looking for another opinion (or three, or twelve, etc...) to see if I'm right.  I can see the initials with my 30x loupe and see them faintly with my 10x (which doesn't say much because I use the 30x for a reason - I need new glasses), so I put it under my digital magnifier and, sure enough, the V.D.B. is there, not as sharp as what's on my 1909s, but it's there.  According to what I've read in Dr. Taylor's article and in this thread about the initials being removed, it looks like whomever was responsible for making the correction to the die that made my coin didn't get the initials completely removed.  I've attached three pics of the coin, obverse, reverse, and a close up shot of the initials, for you to look at and would appreciate your opinions.  I apologize for the poor pic quality, the camera on my magnifier isn't the best in the world.  If you think it really could be a 1910 VDB cent, I'd appreciate any guidance you'd be willing to share on what to do next because I have no clue.

[Henri Charriere]

Re 30x loupe... finally, someone who understands why I also use one and states his reason why.  I don't know what this means, but there is definitely a shadow or indication of the residual presence of a not quite thorough die alteration. I know of no collector who would instinctively glance to the bottom of a 1910. My friend, you are no longer new to the hobby! Welcome to the Forum!

[Woods020]

Not something I am familiar with enough to be of any help. What I do know is none have ever been certified, and the remnants of what is there seem to be smaller than the real  initials. I could be wrong. It does appear there is something there, but it may be a long debate on if it is truly remnants on the die or someone added the initials themselves. Curious to see how this one plays out. 

[Woods020]

@Coinbufmay be a good resource. He is the Lincoln nut. 

[Oldhoopster]

I believe @DWLange wrote about it in his Lincoln cent book but I don't have access to my copy (buried in box waiting for me to find a place for my library after a recent move)

[Coinbuf]

Everything that I have read on this subject leads me to believe that a 1910 dated coin with a 1909 VDB reverse die is highly unlikely.    If you read the mint records you will find that two reverse master hubs were created, one with the VDB and one without.   the one without is the master that was used to produce all the reverse working dies for 1910 on, by the time any 1910 coins were created all the 1909 VDB reverse dies should have been returned and taken out of service.   So from the mint documentation there is no possible way for a 1909 VDB reverse die to have been used with a 1910 obv die.

This is were the speculation and fantasy comes in, there are some who think that it is possible that the mint was frugal and one or more 1909 VDB rev dies were reworked to remove the VDB initials and then used on coins including in the 1910 production.   At this point it is merely an old wives tale and speculation until a proven documented specimen is authenticated by a respected TPG which I think is highly unlikely.

I did read a report form one well known Lincoln collector of a certified coin (certified by SEGS) he saw at a show with a Fiaz/Stanton certification accompanying the slab.  I have never seen this slab nor have I ever seen a photo of said slab and certification, if it exists it must be buried in a collection that has been long out of sight.

Now as to the op's coin and QA's love for the 30X loupe; and the issue with using such high magnification; once you use such high levels of magnification it is very easy for pareidolia to set in and we see things that we want to see.   I always say that everything looks like something at the micron level.

[elcahall]

Thank you to you all for the replies.  I truly appreciate all the help.

Highly unlikely to be an 09 reverse, but not completely impossible?  Do you think it would be worth it to send the coin to be authenticated, just to be sure?  If so, how do I do that and can any of you recommend a service I could use?  I don't know a thing about having coins authenticated and would hate to make a mistake.

I have a few '09 cents without the VDB and on a couple of them the place where the initials would be looks different than the others, but I realize that could just be wear and tear.  I'll try to post a couple pics of them tomorrow evening to see what you all think.  This is so much to learn, but I'm having such fun!

When a coin is sent off, if it proves to be a nothing coin, can you ask that it not be slabbed?  Paying the fee just as if it was to be slabbed is fine, but if it's a nothing coin I'd rather just have it back in its raw state and put it back in it's little flip where I can take it out and look at it if I want to.

The letters on the coin are a little larger than what the pics show.  They seem comparable to my '09 vdb but not as sharp and the camera isn't that good so they didn't show up well in the pics.  Besides, me + using a mouse to draw little circles around letters = fail.  I didn't get the circle around the entire letter.

I didn't know it was possible to read mint records.  I'm going to have to do some internet searching to see if I can find them.

I understand what you say about over-magnification and the 30x loupe, along with the "wishful thinking" when it come to seeing something you hope to see.  As I'm going through the coins and looking them up online to see what they are, I'm doing my best to not imagine something is there when it's really not.  I'd actually put this one back in the pile with the others and was about to start sorting the pile of 1960s cents, but something about it kept nagging at me.  Over the years I've learned to not completely discount myself when that happens so I pulled the coin out again, took the pics, and posted about it here to see what I could find out.

I'm hoping to get new glasses in the next month or so, then maybe I can use my 10x loupe or at least buy a 20x and switch to that, but I don't think I'll ever completely give up the 30x.  My tired old eyes aren't what they used to be.

Cheers!

[Woods020]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:14 AM, elcahall said:

Thank you to you all for the replies.  I truly appreciate all the help.

Highly unlikely to be an 09 reverse, but not completely impossible?  Do you think it would be worth it to send the coin to be authenticated, just to be sure?  If so, how do I do that and can any of you recommend a service I could use?  I don't know a thing about having coins authenticated and would hate to make a mistake.

I have a few '09 cents without the VDB and on a couple of them the place where the initials would be looks different than the others, but I realize that could just be wear and tear.  I'll try to post a couple pics of them tomorrow evening to see what you all think.  This is so much to learn, but I'm having such fun!

When a coin is sent off, if it proves to be a nothing coin, can you ask that it not be slabbed?  Paying the fee just as if it was to be slabbed is fine, but if it's a nothing coin I'd rather just have it back in its raw state and put it back in it's little flip where I can take it out and look at it if I want to.

The letters on the coin are a little larger than what the pics show.  They seem comparable to my '09 vdb but not as sharp and the camera isn't that good so they didn't show up well in the pics.  Besides, me + using a mouse to draw little circles around letters = fail.  I didn't get the circle around the entire letter.

I didn't know it was possible to read mint records.  I'm going to have to do some internet searching to see if I can find them.

I understand what you say about over-magnification and the 30x loupe, along with the "wishful thinking" when it come to seeing something you hope to see.  As I'm going through the coins and looking them up online to see what they are, I'm doing my best to not imagine something is there when it's really not.  I'd actually put this one back in the pile with the others and was about to start sorting the pile of 1960s cents, but something about it kept nagging at me.  Over the years I've learned to not completely discount myself when that happens so I pulled the coin out again, took the pics, and posted about it here to see what I could find out.

I'm hoping to get new glasses in the next month or so, then maybe I can use my 10x loupe or at least buy a 20x and switch to that, but I don't think I'll ever completely give up the 30x.  My tired old eyes aren't what they used to be.

Cheers!

You can certainly submit the coin and we can help you. You’ll need a basic membership and then grading fees/shipping to send it in. Probably looking at $100 give or take depending on some factors. 
 

The complexity would come in it having any hope. To date the grading services have not been willing to certify that this exists. You would more than likely need to make a case, which would involve something like finding mint records showing 1909 dies had been used in 1910. The fact that Coinbuf pointed out the records say the opposite makes this an extremely unlikely endeavor. I can’t and won’t say impossible, but I will say the burden of proof would likely fall on you to prove this is legitimate and so far no one has been able to. I think based on what I’ve heard and read that I would not spend my time and money on this if it was me. 
 

With all of that said, and again this is very very unlikely to go anywhere, if you are adamant there are two gentleman on here that I would consult.  
 

@RWBis a numismatic researcher and author. He is very skilled at digging up mint records and would be who I asked if I needed to find something about dies used or any mint records for that matter. 
 

@DWLangeis who would more than likely authenticate the coin if it were real at our hosts, NGC. He was also referenced by an earlier member in writing a book on Lincoln cents. He can tell you definitively if NGC would even consider the existence of a 1910 VDB.  

Edited January 12, 2022 by Woods020

[Henri Charriere]

I can go with the OP, or rely on my own lying eyes.  The fact that this may not have been seen in well over 100 years means nothing.  But we still need to hear from other members.  That ghostly presence on the reverse is the best news I have heard since Seattle Slew won the Belmont Stakes and the Triple Crown at Belmont Park in 1977. The return on a favorite to win was minimal, but with this example, it is abundantly clear to see "something" familiar is there to see for people from all walks of life.

[RWB]

There is no "1910 VDB" cent. Your source article is both way out of date and wrong in nearly everything it says.

A new reverse master die and hub were prepared in August 1909 after Treasury Secretary McVeagh approved removal of the designer's initials. The initials V.D.B. were never part of the hub. This new hub also had slightly lower relief, according to mint documents. All of the details and a lot more are in my book Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915. Your can borrow  from your local library under Interlibrary Loan (ILL), or from the ANA if you're a member, or purchase from a book seller.

[Coinbuf]

On 1/11/2022 at 11:14 PM, elcahall said:

Thank you to you all for the replies.  I truly appreciate all the help.

Highly unlikely to be an 09 reverse, but not completely impossible?  Do you think it would be worth it to send the coin to be authenticated, just to be sure?  If so, how do I do that and can any of you recommend a service I could use?  I don't know a thing about having coins authenticated and would hate to make a mistake.

I have a few '09 cents without the VDB and on a couple of them the place where the initials would be looks different than the others, but I realize that could just be wear and tear.  I'll try to post a couple pics of them tomorrow evening to see what you all think.  This is so much to learn, but I'm having such fun!

When a coin is sent off, if it proves to be a nothing coin, can you ask that it not be slabbed?  Paying the fee just as if it was to be slabbed is fine, but if it's a nothing coin I'd rather just have it back in its raw state and put it back in it's little flip where I can take it out and look at it if I want to.

The letters on the coin are a little larger than what the pics show.  They seem comparable to my '09 vdb but not as sharp and the camera isn't that good so they didn't show up well in the pics.  Besides, me + using a mouse to draw little circles around letters = fail.  I didn't get the circle around the entire letter.

I didn't know it was possible to read mint records.  I'm going to have to do some internet searching to see if I can find them.

I understand what you say about over-magnification and the 30x loupe, along with the "wishful thinking" when it come to seeing something you hope to see.  As I'm going through the coins and looking them up online to see what they are, I'm doing my best to not imagine something is there when it's really not.  I'd actually put this one back in the pile with the others and was about to start sorting the pile of 1960s cents, but something about it kept nagging at me.  Over the years I've learned to not completely discount myself when that happens so I pulled the coin out again, took the pics, and posted about it here to see what I could find out.

I'm hoping to get new glasses in the next month or so, then maybe I can use my 10x loupe or at least buy a 20x and switch to that, but I don't think I'll ever completely give up the 30x.  My tired old eyes aren't what they used to be.

Cheers!

As @Woods020 wrote you most certainly can submit this coin to NGC for attribution and grading, no once you send the coin in to a grading service they will return the coin in a holder with a grade you do not have the option to receive it back raw.   The only exception to this is if the grading company (NGC) deemed the coin to have issues to the extent that the TPG did not want to render a grade opinion then it would be returned raw, we call these coins bodybaged.   But that is a choice that the TPG makes not the person that submits the coin.  However once you receive it back there is nothing preventing you from opening the slab and returning the coin to a raw state.

I would strongly advise against you submitting this coin as from the photos I see no chance that it will be attributed as the lone single certified example of a 1910 VDB.   But if you have the desire and do not mind spending $75 to satisfy your curiosity, you certainly can send it in.   The instructions on how to submit are on the NGC home page and you can ask here or contact NGC customer service if you have any questions about how to fill out the form.

[Henri Charriere]

[I think it should be noted that the 1933 St. Gaudens' $20 gold piece was authenticated and certified and returned to its new owner, unencapsulated, at his request, which the TPGS chose to honor. It is one publicized exception the OP may be unaware of.]

If there were something to be gained from the surreptitious, however subtle, minting of this coin, surely it would have come to the attention of someone in the intervening 100+ years.

[DWLange]

There is no technical reason that one of the V.D.B. reverse dies could not have been used accidentally in 1910, as undated dies typically are not discarded until they fail or become too worn. The 1909 situation, however, was unique in that the mint would have pulled any V.D.B. dies out of service to avoid such an accident.

As Roger noted, the replacement dies not only lacked the initials but also were lower in relief. I believe that only the rims were reduced in relief and not the design elements. 1909 V.D.B. cents of both mints wear more slowly on their reverses than succeeding Lincoln Cents as a result of their high rims, which are quite obvious on unworn coins, and they have a very distinctive look even when worn. I don't see that look on the 1910 cent illustrated, so it's doubtful that it ever bore the initials. If it were submitted to NGC it would come across my desk, so I'll keep an open mind, but I would be very surprised if the initials could be confirmed.

[Woods020]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:04 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

The fact that this may not have been seen in well over 100 years means nothing. 

 

On 1/12/2022 at 3:23 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

If there were something to be gained from the surreptitious, however subtle, minting of this coin, surely it would have come to the attention of someone in the intervening 100+ years.

Interesting change of opinion there QA 

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, DWLange said:

I believe that only the rims were reduced in relief and not the design elements....

It would be a great comfort to me if you would be willing to concede there appears to be something there that mimics the famed designer's initials, however improbable. Otherwise, my lying 🤥 eyes will continue to deceive me.

[RWB]

Mint documents confirm that the withdrawn VDB (or BVD) reverse dies were segregated and destroyed. We also have all the cent die numbers from 1909 for Liberty and Lincoln cents, P and S mints. Claiming it "looks like" such-and-such is merely idle speculation.

[Woods020]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It would be a great comfort to me if you would be willing to concede there appears to be something there that mimics the famed designer's initials, however improbable. Otherwise, my lying 🤥 eyes will continue to deceive me.

There is something there it seems. But the question is what. The exponentially greater explanation is either random hits from circulation or that someone took it upon themself to add the initials. 

[MorganMan]

While the real VDB initials were shifted a little to the left of center, the ones you are showing seem to be too far to the left.

 

Just an observation.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by MorganMan

[Henri Charriere]

Alternate (face-saving) theory...  The coin was an unauthorized minting that, over time, was worn down by an untold number of people who were urged to touch it with their thumbs 👍 to confirm its presence:

"Whaddya mean it ain't real?  Here, run your fingers over it... Even Danny (the blind newsstand owner) says it's so and he can read Braille!"   😉