Differance in grades 2 2

[Hoghead515]

I own two coins I want to use in this post both graded by NGC. I dont understand how the 1944 S got a grade of MS66. It looks like it should have a lesser grade. It looks pretty rough around the edges and a few knicks. And this 1932 got a grade of MS63. It is a way more beautiful coin. It has clean fields and hardly any knicks on it. Looking at a comparision of the two side by side its crazy how the grades are so different. Dont really have a question. Just wanted to post and see what opinions others have. 

[Hoghead515]

[zadok]

compare is the operative word here.....note the reverse details on the 44-s...arrows,tail feathers, leaf lines, stems, breast feathers....obverse details on 44-s...hair curl, ribbon knot, bow, neck lines, lips, eye....

[Henri Charriere]

The only thing I have to say is I hope they caught the guy who bulldozed those letters off LIBERTY on the '44-s' obverse.  Shameful.

[Hoghead515]

It was a really good strike and has lots of detail but I cant believe all that abrasion on the obverse and the mushy LIBERTY didnt keep it from getting a lot lower grade. Also the QUARTER DOLLAR on the reverse. Makes the coin very unattractive. If it werent for that it would be very attractive. Theres a patch of abraison all around the edge of the coin from about 7 oclock to about 1 oclock on the obverse. I bought this coin blindly a good while back before I learned some costly lessons. Just saw ms66 and bought it. I quit doing that now. 

[Hoghead515]

All those scratches you can see on ERTY is on the coin on the 1944 S.  The shading is hiding it but its like that up the whole edge. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Hoghead515

[Henri Charriere]

I have two Roosters, both a year apart, graded MS63 and MS64.  In my heart, I just don't see it. The '63 should be a '64, and vice versa. My only reason for never returning for an exchange is my fear the gods of grading will be offended and stick it to me with something worse. And on the international level, that entails too much risk.

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:24 PM, Hoghead515 said:

All those scratches you can see on ERTY is on the coin. The shading is hiding it but its like that up the whole edge. 

I know.  I let my fingers do the walking and they don't miss a thing.  For reasons that elude me, the graders all agreed to let it slide. (We may have to wait until one of them retires and discloses all the secrets in a book, entitled: Confessions of a Coin Grader.)   

[zadok]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:24 PM, Hoghead515 said:

All those scratches you can see on ERTY is on the coin on the 1944 S.  The shading is hiding it but its like that up the whole edge. 

...what u r calling abrasions 7-1 n on erty....appear to be raised from viewing photo n r most likely from the erosion of the die n not damage to the coin....the grading on the 32 seems accurate to me, im not saying ur 44-s is an attractive coin, just that numerical grade was primarily based on fullness of strike n not condition of die, i personally would not have given it a 66 but i find it a higher graded coin than the 32.....

[Hoghead515]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:27 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I have two Roosters, both a year apart, graded MS63 and MS64.  In my heart, I just don't see it. The '63 should be a '64, and vice versa. My only reason for never returning for an exchange is my fear the gods of grading will be offended and stick it to me with something worse. And on the international level, that entails too much risk.

Thats what im thinking on these. I think the 1932 really deserves a 64 or 65 looking at it in hand under a loupe. Its a really nice coin. Just a bit weak of a strike but Ive got alot weaker MS66s in my collection. I really think the 1944S really deserves a DETAILS grade. I may be out of line saying that but in hand it looks like damage to me. Unless the graders thought it was damage done from the die somehow. Im a complete amature and will admit it. Not real sure to this day how to grade. Ive learned little bits of what they look for but I dont have the knowledge behind it. Theres are just observations of mine Im trying to figure out why it didnt affect the grade. 

[Hoghead515]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:36 PM, zadok said:

...what u r calling abrasions 7-1 n on erty....appear to be raised from viewing photo n r most likely from the erosion of the die n not damage to the coin....the grading on the 32 seems accurate to me, im not saying ur 44-s is an attractive coin, just that numerical grade was primarily based on fullness of strike n not condition of die, i personally would not have given it a 66 but i find it a higher graded coin than the 32.....

Disregard my last post. I posted it before I read this one. That clears things up alot for me. Thank you my friend. I didnt know how they factored it all in. 

[Hoghead515]

I got a couple that is overgraded in the collection. You can barely see the leaves and taifeathers. They both are graded MS66. When I get to them in a couple days I will post them on here. Im working on taking a bit better pictures of them all for my registry set. Thank you @zadokfor helping me understand it a little bit better. Im learning a bit more all the time. 

[zadok]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:39 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Disregard my last post. I posted it before I read this one. That clears things up alot for me. Thank you my friend. I didnt know how they factored it all in. 

...no two coins r the same, n most likely no two graders will see the same coin exactly the same, but if u give 50 graders 50 coins the composite grades will be very close to each other...its sort of like comparing two beautiful women in a beauty contest.....or two hunting dogs during a 'coon hunt.....everyone can tell the difference tween the beautiful woman n the hunting dog...n the 'coon would rather have the beautiful women chasing it than the hunting dogs....

[Henri Charriere]

That's not erosion of the coin, that's damage to the die.  Really?  And at what point does erosion supersede damage?

Edit:  I believe the graders in Europe a lot more common-sensical.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: additional of parting shot.

[zadok]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:44 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I got a couple that is overgraded in the collection. You can barely see the leaves and taifeathers. They both are graded MS66. When I get to them in a couple days I will post them on here. Im working on taking a bit better pictures of them all for my registry set. Thank you @zadokfor helping me understand it a little bit better. Im learning a bit more all the time. 

...learning is a life long journey...now that we have determined u know the difference tween a beautiful woman n a hunting dog i feel certain u r on the right path...

Edited January 12, 2022 by zadok
spelling...

[Hoghead515]

Heres one example. Ill have better pics of it in a day or two when I get time. But its an MS66+  Weak hair ribbon, weak tail feathers, weak leaves,  weak detail all over. This one seems a bit over graded.  If I were to guess the grade on this and didnt know any better I would guess ms62 or 63. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

You'll have to ask the "grading" company. Computer aided systems could help a lot in grade consistency, but they are not well utilized.

[Woods020]

On 1/11/2022 at 7:01 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Heres one example. Ill have better pics of it in a day or two when I get time. But its an MS66+  Weak hair ribbon, weak tail feathers, weak leaves,  weak detail all over. This one seems a bit over graded.  If I were to guess the grade on this and didnt know any better I would guess ms62 or 63. 

Man I don’t want to in any way belittle your coin, but that one looks nowhere near MS 66+. That might be a garage grading 66+, but if NGC really graded this I’m shocked. Despite the general weakness all over the coin the damage on prime focal areas would prevent that it would seem. This seems like a mistake. Did you check the Cert number?

[Hoghead515]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:25 PM, Woods020 said:

Man I don’t want to in any way belittle your coin, but that one looks nowhere near MS 66+. That might be a garage grading 66+, but if NGC really graded this I’m shocked. Despite the general weakness all over the coin the damage on prime focal areas would prevent that it would seem. This seems like a mistake. Did you check the Cert number?

I definately agree with you. It was NGC that graded it. Its nowhere near MS66+  The cert and pics match. 

[Woods020]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:09 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I definately agree with you. It was NGC that graded it. Its nowhere near MS66+  The cert and pics match. 

Well I’ve demonstrated I am by no means good at grading these, but I gotta say I’m shocked. But they are the experts. 
 

Heck I’d say it’s circulated. That must be some discoloring on the front of the neck and not wear. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Woods020

[Hoghead515]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:12 PM, Woods020 said:

Well I’ve demonstrated I am by no means good at grading these, but I gotta say I’m shocked. But they are the experts. 

Espically putting a + in front of the grade. Thats even worse 

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:25 PM, Woods020 said:

....the damage on prime focal areas would prevent that....

"Prime focal area," hmm. So going back to Exhibit A, the '44-s, had half the date been obliterated instead of half the LIBERTY, would you have the confidence to march into your local coin emporium and insist: "Damage, what damage? That's merely die erosion. No damage at all, whatsoever!"

Anybody remember that 600-lb. armed security guard they had at Stack's back in the late 1960's?  Gus, I think his name was? He'd pick you up, and throw you clear over to Carnegie Hall's doorstep on the south side of West 57th Street!

[Woods020]

On 1/11/2022 at 9:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

"Prime focal area," hmm. So going back to Exhibit A, the '44-s, had half the date been obliterated instead of half the LIBERTY, would you have the confidence to march into your local coin emporium and insist: "Damage, what damage? That's merely die erosion. No damage at all, whatsoever!"

Anybody remember that 600-lb. armed security guard they had at Stack's back in the late 1960's?  Gus, I think his name was? He'd pick you up, and throw you clear over to Carnegie Hall's doorstep on the south side of West 57th Street!

There is a difference in post mint damaged and die states. Not saying the latter looks pretty but it’s not damage. 

[Just Bob]

MS 66, according to our hosts: "Very well struck with minimal marks and hairlines."

No offense, but I don't think your '52-S qualifies. At least, that is my opinion, based on the pics.

[Hoghead515]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:53 AM, Just Bob said:

MS 66, according to our hosts: "Very well struck with minimal marks and hairlines."

No offense, but I don't think your '52-S qualifies. At least, that is my opinion, based on the pics.

I dont get offended. I agree 100%  It only deserves about an MS 62 in my opinion. It has no detail at all. This whole entire thread is proof you cant buy coins just according to their grades. Most of you all know that but could be educational to others. Ive been guilty of it. When I first started collecting slabbed coins. Thats why I own that one. Ive since learned my lesson. Later on I plan on replacing a few I have in my set. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Hoghead515

[Oldhoopster]

The LIBERTY and QUARTER DOLLAR are from a weak strike, not damage.  Maybe from a slightly titled die, or even possibly a filled die error.  Notice how the weakness is directly opposite on each side.  Maybe the graders felt the weakness was due to a minor error and did not down grade for it.

I agree with the others and don't like this coin as a 66.  My recommendation is that if the weakness bothers you, sell the coin and buy one you like.  Many times, a coin like this in your collection will always bother you.  Dump it and chalk it up to a learning experience. Might be a good candidate for Great Collections.  Nothing wrong if you want to keep it, that's just my opinion

[RWB]

Cause of weakness on the 1944-S is more likely a partial die collapse. That moved the inscription slightly farther from the planchet than the rest of the coin, creating localized weakness.

[Hoghead515]

Thank you all for the answers. This has been a learning experience for me. Ive been thinking about those coins over a year now. And comparing them and wondering what made the grades so different. Always makes me happy to learn more and I thank all of you for the kknowledge. For now the coins will stay in my registry set. Once its completed ill replace the ones I dont like. I will still keep the others though but not in my set. From here on out Im gonna go after more attractive coins with harder strikes mixed with beauty. 

[numisport]

You can ask for a review at NGC used to be no charge. If its overgraded they may replace it or settle for FMV. In those cases you won't get your coin back. I have done this years ago and it's possible that policy has changed but I doubt it. See their guarantee.

Edited January 12, 2022 by numisport