About Bernard von NotHous 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:53 PM, coinman_23885 said:

Of course even then the risk is real that it will fall on deaf ears.

Just shy of certain, I’d say. In this day and age, if it doesn’t help their fundraising, Congresscritters couldn’t care less. I did legislation for a living in PA, but I’ve completely lost faith in that branch. 

[World Colonial]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:06 PM, coinman_23885 said:

The government didn’t need an excuse. While one of the theories was based on him attempting  to circulate his currency, another was based purely on similarity in motifs, legends, inscriptions, etc., to U.S. coins.  Whether the similarity was sufficient to violate the statute is a question for a jury or judge sitting as a fact finder. (Ironically I would have ruled against the government with respect to the similarity argument.) He had his due process and lost  that issue. That is the risk various individuals take when they attempt to play coin god and strike their own coinage.

As for the law, the Constitution plainly grants Congress the power to establish weights and measures, coin money, regulate value thereof, regulate commerce, punish counterfeiting, and all implied powers necessary to effect those enumerated powers. Even the states are barred from producing their own coins/currency. Most of these provisions are reactions to problems that arose under the Articles of Confederation where multiple states/entities performing governmental functions created chaos and arguably instability. The federal government has used its powers to establish a monopoly (logical given that coining money has historically been a governmental function) to provide stability to one national currency to facilitate commerce. The government has enacted laws using these powers which Von Nothaus violated. He was very much convicted of a “real” crime.

I have a general idea of what you are telling me.

Interesting that all governments debase the currency to steal the value of the citizenry's labor and property yet it is perfectly "legal".  That's my definition of a real crime which is a huge order of magnitude compared to the issue discussed in this thread.

No, you don't need to tell me you disagree with me.  I can infer it from your reply my post.

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2021 at 4:25 PM, World Colonial said:

I have a general idea of what you are telling me.

Interesting that all governments debase the currency to steal the value of the citizenry's labor and property yet it is perfectly "legal".  That's my definition of a real crime which is a huge order of magnitude compared to the issue discussed in this thread.

No, you don't need to tell me you disagree with me.  I can infer it from your reply my post.

Even more than monetary policy, there is a great deal of evidence that the thing that debases currencies the most is war.

[coinman_23885]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Even more than monetary policy, there is a great deal of evidence that the thing that debases currencies the most is war.

What is the mechanism? Inflation as the price of goods increase secondary to materials being diverted for war efforts?

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:46 PM, coinman_23885 said:

What is the mechanism? Inflation as the price of goods increase secondary to materials being diverted for war efforts?

Largely, yes. The pursuit of “guns and butter”, as economists put it. Or as one I studied under put it, “we pay half the people to create garbage, and the other half to haul it away.”

Edited July 19, 2021 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Even more than monetary policy, there is a great deal of evidence that the thing that debases currencies the most is war.

It is both and one compliments the other.  I don't believe it is mostly war now because US military spending is a much smaller component of government spending and economic output than it was elsewhere in the past. Credit also plays a much larger role now too, by enabling the population to afford things and pay prices they otherwise could not.

What you state has been true historically elsewhere in the past.

On 7/18/2021 at 9:48 PM, VKurtB said:

Largely, yes. The pursuit of “guns and butter”, as economists put it. Or as one I studied under put it, “we pay half the people to create garbage, and the other half to haul it away.”

This is my explanation for it today, though those who favor these programs will often deny it.  There is a lot more "butter" today in the government budget than "guns".  It's become so extreme now that even if the entire defense budget were eliminated, budget deficits would still be at unprecedented levels outside of a few time periods (Civil War, WWII).

Another factor is that much of the defense budget is spent outside the US and doesn't directly contribute to inflation in the US.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:28 AM, World Colonial said:

....even if the entire defense budget were eliminated, budget deficits would still be at unprecedented levels outside of a few time periods (Civil War, WWII).

 

Another factor is that much of the defense budget is spent outside the US and doesn't directly contribute to inflation in the US.

[Fleeting thought: if my many detractors (mostly quiet since I have assumed a lower profile on the Forum, lately) are in need of fresh ammo, here it is:  I have, for many years argued for a 37% across-the-board cut to the Defense Department budget, and object to the use of the term "U.S. interests" which seems to come up every time we stick our nose in other peoples' business.

Comes now @World Colonial who boldly states neither of my concerns would have any impact on the budget deficits. Ok-a-a-a-y... I know I am being out of line here, but would it be bad form, as long as you are in the vicinity, to inquire as to your thoughts on BvN, and whether 🎶 you would be in favor of granting him a pardon based on the information and sources cited, and, yes, responses elicited thus far from fellow members earlier in this thread?  I am curious because you have a curious thought process that encourages independent thinking. ] 🤔

[VKurtB]

Virtually ALL economic policy from our federal government has one goal - the transfer of economic power from savers (aka investors) to those who cannot or have not saved. ALL of it. It doesn’t matter if it is done by monetary policy (which is DESIGNED to be none of the elected branches’ business), or by outright transfer payments, which are. Once you know that, less becomes so mysterious. Does that work against “private property”; as a principle? Yup, sure does.

[World Colonial]

On 7/19/2021 at 3:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

 I know I am being out of line here, but would it be bad form, as long as you are in the vicinity, to inquire as to your thoughts on BvN, and whether 🎶 you would be in favor of granting him a pardon based on the information and sources cited, and, yes, responses elicited thus far from fellow members earlier in this thread?  I am curious because you have a curious thought process that encourages independent thinking. ] 🤔

Yes, I think he should be pardoned, based upon what I know.

I don't believe he ever should have been charged, period.  It's not because I support his protest position.  I'm also not a metal fanatic, don't own any gold or silver now other than through my collection, never owned a single liberty dollar or any "coin" like it, and don't ever intend to buy one either.

It's because I consider the case farcical, selective prosecution of a victimless "crime" and hypocrisy at its finest.  It's a penny ante “crime” where I didn't read a single post here even claiming a single person suffered any loss or injury.  This is why I stated the government’s motivation should be obvious (a politically motivated prosecution) to anyone who will look at the situation impartially.

I see it as the government pretending to prosecute a consumer protection case claiming to protect potential “victims” even as it simultaneously intentionally defrauds every USD holder (hundreds of millions of them) indefinitely through institutionalized inflation.

Don’t believe me?  Read the Federal Reserve’s “stable price” mandate where they communicated their 2% inflation target over time.  What they are actually telling everyone is that they are committed to stealing (what else exactly is it?) from anyone who earns their income in USD and holds USD assets, each and every year forever.  

If this case was such a “vital” public policy interest, why didn’t the government do anything about it earlier and why were any liberty dollars returned?  The best explanation is what I wrote in my prior post.  The real purpose of the case was sending a message to anyone who will even think of challenging the government’s money monopoly.  

There is no similarity between a liberty dollar and circulating US coinage.  Designs look nothing alike, the size differs, and there is no (and never has been) $10 or $20 silver circulating coin.

Any public confusion with circulating US coinage is mostly attributable to the continuous design change since inception of the SQ program in 1999.  Whose fault is that?  There is no reason to believe most of the public can recognize most post-1998 quarters and dollar coins which actually do circulate, as opposed to the liberty dollar which does not.  Many if not most collectors can’t do it offhand either. 

To anyone who claims otherwise, there is this tool - the internet - which provides confirmation in minutes.  Using it is not a hardship on anyone who is so clueless to be confused by a liberty dollar, if they have any functioning brain cells.  We are using it now on this forum and most Americans use it, all the time.

As to why this comparison is relevant, the liberty dollar is irrelevant to literally virtually everyone in this country.  Conversely, government intentionally systematically debasing the currency is relevant to practically every American.

This real crime is institutionalized theft, regardless that it is “legal”.  It’s “legal” plundering of the citizenry; hundreds of billions to trillions annually, depending upon how measured.  Anyone else here can call it whatever they want to rationalize their position if they disagree with me. 

But then, the next thing I am going to hear is that two different acceptable standards of conduct makes complete sense, one for the private citizen and another for the government official, right?  This Bizarro world contradiction is totally justified in the name of "public policy" as in these matters, the responsible government agencies and their lackeys in the economics profession are infallible.

OK, rant over.

[Henri Charriere]

@World Colonial  Thank you for extending to me, a mere chiffonnier, the courtesy of a quite courageous explanation of your position on a multi-faceted issue. With all due respect to those members who may disagree -- many prominent and distinguished -- one-word denunciation and epithets are unsatisfying to those with enquiring minds who want to get as close to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:42 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, I think he should be pardoned, based upon what I know.

I don't believe he ever should have been charged, period.  It's not because I support his protest position.  I'm also not a metal fanatic, don't own any gold or silver now other than through my collection, never owned a single liberty dollar or any "coin" like it, and don't ever intend to buy one either.

It's because I consider the case farcical, selective prosecution of a victimless "crime" and hypocrisy at its finest.  It's a penny ante “crime” where I didn't read a single post here even claiming a single person suffered any loss or injury.  This is why I stated the government’s motivation should be obvious (a politically motivated prosecution) to anyone who will look at the situation impartially.

I see it as the government pretending to prosecute a consumer protection case claiming to protect potential “victims” even as it simultaneously intentionally defrauds every USD holder (hundreds of millions of them) indefinitely through institutionalized inflation.

Don’t believe me?  Read the Federal Reserve’s “stable price” mandate where they communicated their 2% inflation target over time.  What they are actually telling everyone is that they are committed to stealing (what else exactly is it?) from anyone who earns their income in USD and holds USD assets, each and every year forever.  

If this case was such a “vital” public policy interest, why didn’t the government do anything about it earlier and why were any liberty dollars returned?  The best explanation is what I wrote in my prior post.  The real purpose of the case was sending a message to anyone who will even think of challenging the government’s money monopoly.  

There is no similarity between a liberty dollar and circulating US coinage.  Designs look nothing alike, the size differs, and there is no (and never has been) $10 or $20 silver circulating coin.

Any public confusion with circulating US coinage is mostly attributable to the continuous design change since inception of the SQ program in 1999.  Whose fault is that?  There is no reason to believe most of the public can recognize most post-1998 quarters and dollar coins which actually do circulate, as opposed to the liberty dollar which does not.  Many if not most collectors can’t do it offhand either. 

To anyone who claims otherwise, there is this tool - the internet - which provides confirmation in minutes.  Using it is not a hardship on anyone who is so clueless to be confused by a liberty dollar, if they have any functioning brain cells.  We are using it now on this forum and most Americans use it, all the time.

As to why this comparison is relevant, the liberty dollar is irrelevant to literally virtually everyone in this country.  Conversely, government intentionally systematically debasing the currency is relevant to practically every American.

This real crime is institutionalized theft, regardless that it is “legal”.  It’s “legal” plundering of the citizenry; hundreds of billions to trillions annually, depending upon how measured.  Anyone else here can call it whatever they want to rationalize their position if they disagree with me. 

But then, the next thing I am going to hear is that two different acceptable standards of conduct makes complete sense, one for the private citizen and another for the government official, right?  This Bizarro world contradiction is totally justified in the name of "public policy" as in these matters, the responsible government agencies and their lackeys in the economics profession are infallible.

OK, rant over.

Really really SOUND rant, over all.

[World Colonial]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:23 PM, VKurtB said:

Really really SOUND rant, over all.

Thanks, coming from you, I especially appreciate it.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2021 at 7:28 PM, World Colonial said:

Thanks, coming from you, I especially appreciate it.

I’m not anywhere near as troubled by the Fed’s 2% inflation target as you are, because flat or increasing money values (aka deflation) disincentivize current investment and lead to wealth hoarding (THE gold problem), the rest of your analysis is spot on. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by VKurtB

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

On 7/18/2021 at 3:58 PM, VKurtB said:

Just shy of certain, I’d say. In this day and age, if it doesn’t help their fundraising, Congresscritters couldn’t care less. I did legislation for a living in PA, but I’ve completely lost faith in that branch. 

This. $$$$$$$$...

[World Colonial]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:52 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m not anywhere near as troubled by the Fed’s 2% inflation target as you are, because flat or increasing money values (aka deflation) disincentivize current investment and lead to wealth hoarding (THE gold problem), the rest of your analysis is spot on. 

You seem to be referring to the macro economic aspects.  This in and of itself is not that important to me.  If it didn't have such unequal and inequitable effects by picking winners and losers, I would be indifferent. 

My primary objection is how it impacts the individual who is just trying to live their life and plan for their future without being forced to participate in a financial casino to preserve their living standards.

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2021 at 9:15 AM, World Colonial said:

You seem to be referring to the macro economic aspects.  This in and of itself is not that important to me.  If it didn't have such unequal and inequitable effects by picking winners and losers, I would be indifferent. 

My primary objection is how it impacts the individual who is just trying to live their life and plan for their future without being forced to participate in a financial casino to preserve their living standards.

Ah yes, understood. Yes, my emphasis nearly ALWAYS is macroeconomic, not individual. Good catch. Perhaps a remnant of WHEN and WHERE I studied. Micro was out of favor, and macro was all that was emphasized.

Edited July 20, 2021 by VKurtB