1891 $20 Liberty Carson City - Lots of questions 0

[MOBlackmur]

I'm sure many of you see newbies like me ask a bunch of questions.  I must admit, this site has A LOT of information; it just doesn't seem to be all in an easy place to find.  So I thought I'd ask some questions here to see if someone would be kind enough to respond.

I inherited a 1891 $20 Liberty coin with a CC (Carson City) stamp.  I see that there were 5,000 minted.  I am not a collector, and would rather sell this for some home improvements (hopefully that doesn't offend any collectors).  Pictures of the coin are attached.

Would someone please explain the process one should go thru to sell a coin like this?  

Does it get sent to NGC or others for grading and certification first?  

I did not completely understand the table that shows what NGC would charge for this.  Could someone please let me know?

I see some listed on eBay.  Is that really the best way to see a coin like this?

Do you have any suggestions or things you recommend I think about or do?

Thank you for your patience.  I look forward to any replies I might receive.

[JKK]

First I would brace yourself for the fake/real question. While those are very good detail photos, I have serious concerns about authenticity. It could be the lighting, but the color is not consistent with the real deal. I see spots long the edge that show a more disturbing color. Again, it could just be photographic nuances.

The easy way would be to contact an auction house and send them the pictures. Great Collections and Heritage are well respected here, I think, and I've used the former. If they think it's not authentic, they'll tell you, in order to spare you and them the effort. If they think it might be real, they might encourage you to consign to them. They then handle the grading submission, which is good for you because you don't have to invent that wheel.

[MOBlackmur]

Really good advice.  Thank you!

[Grant Gerlinger]

The color looks off to me too. Also the stars don’t look the quite the same as a graded example. The nose doesn’t look the same either. I don’t think it is real but I’m still learning myself. 

[zadok]

first weigh it...33.4 grams, measure it...34.0 mm.....lighting in ur photos prob dont show its real color so cant go by that, has legit die characteristics...mint mark etc....if u r going to sell consign to reputable auction firm let them grade, if going sell privately needs be graded...prob come back authentic with details, appears to have been cleaned and/or lightly polished, not uncommon....

[MOBlackmur]

I think my wife's father bought this in the 80's and had it on a chain (LOL).  I never even considered someone might have made a fake back then.  I asked Great Collections for input.  Thanks for your insight.

[JKK]

12 minutes ago, MOBlackmur said:

I think my wife's father bought this in the 80's and had it on a chain (LOL).  I never even considered someone might have made a fake back then.  I asked Great Collections for input.  Thanks for your insight.

Understandable. As a rule, the rarer and/or more desirable the coin, the more likely it is there are many phonies out there. We never talk in detail here about tells on counterfeits (or at least we aren't supposed to), only in the most general terms, but zadox's advice about weighing is good. Also, if it was in a bail, it's probably got some damage from that. If it's still in a bail, clearly, it needs professional expertise to get it out safely. I had wondered about that white raised spot on the obverse edge at 4:00, plus what looked at an extra rim ridge all around, but bails usually are more obvious.

Edited March 20, 2021 by JKK

[Mti]

Hello

In my opinion, besides the color of the coin, there are other problems. Which increases the likelihood of it being counterfeit

 

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forums, to your concern about our desire to sell that should never be a concern to any collector.   Collectors sell coins all the time, sometimes to fund other projects and sometimes to fund new coin purchases.   From your photos the coin looks real, the color does look off but I'm guessing that the photo is washing out the color.   It does look to some some evidence of the prior jewelry mount and that could preclude the coin from receiving a straight grade if submitted to NGC.   I would second the recommendation to first weigh and measure the coin, if both of those are within the known specs for this coin then you can move forward with any plans to sell or auction it.

[MOBlackmur]

Wow you guys are amazing.  So I took it to my jeweler, because I figured he'd have a scale and calipers.  Exactly 33.4 grams and 34mm.  He even did an x-ray (XRF Analysis he called it) and found it to contain 88.9% gold, 9.9% copper, 1.0% platinum, and .3% silver.  

Does the above help?  Mti had a lot of areas circled that makes me concerned too.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:25 PM, MOBlackmur said:

Wow you guys are amazing.  So I took it to my jeweler, because I figured he'd have a scale and calipers.  Exactly 33.4 grams and 34mm.  He even did an x-ray (XRF Analysis he called it) and found it to contain 88.9% gold, 9.9% copper, 1.0% platinum, and .3% silver.  Does the above help?  Mti had a lot of areas circled that makes me concerned too.

 

A Liberty Double Eagle should be 90% gold, 10% copper.  I'm not sure why trace elements of platinum and silver are present.  I don't think a real Liberty DE would have any measurable amounts of those elements.

If you have what appears to be a counterfeit, it's basically worth a bit less than 1 ounce of gold, which isn't bad.

Edited March 24, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[JKK]

12 minutes ago, MOBlackmur said:

Wow you guys are amazing.  So I took it to my jeweler, because I figured he'd have a scale and calipers.  Exactly 33.4 grams and 34mm.  He even did an x-ray (XRF Analysis he called it) and found it to contain 88.9% gold, 9.9% copper, 1.0% platinum, and .3% silver.  

Does the above help?  Mti had a lot of areas circled that makes me concerned too.

 

Assuming the analysis is correct, which I don't think there's reason to doubt, the question now becomes the composition. Was that a technique to balance the weight out so that it would weigh what it was supposed to weigh, or was that impurity in the metallurgical process leading to the planchet's creation? I do not know the answer to that, or whether the latter was even plausible. I'll have to wait for one of our gold experts to comment on that.

[RWB]

Authentic 1891-CC Double Eagle from Heritage Auctions.

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

PS: The rays above the eagle are called "a glory." The religious motto "In God We Trust" is single logo punch and can sometimes be found with Longacre doubling where the punch shelf is visible on a coin -- as late as 1904.

[MOBlackmur]

Just to update the post (if anyone is still reading it), I took the coin to a local NGC dealer and was told it was indeed authentic.  However, because it was used as jewelry, it had been cleaned, which they tell me is bad.  But hey, I'm happy.  I have a an old gold $20 coin that only 4,999 others were minted!  I am sending it to NGC for grading.  I'll let you all know when it comes back.

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, MOBlackmur said:

Just to update the post (if anyone is still reading it), I took the coin to a local NGC dealer and was told it was indeed authentic.  However, because it was used as jewelry, it had been cleaned, which they tell me is bad.  But hey, I'm happy.  I have a an old gold $20 coin that only 4,999 others were minted!  I am sending it to NGC for grading.  I'll let you all know when it comes back.

Then I think it will come back as DETAILS -- CLEANED and not have an actual grade (others here can explain why they don't give you a number if it's been cleaned or altered).

[RWB]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:25 PM, MOBlackmur said:

Wow you guys are amazing.  So I took it to my jeweler, because I figured he'd have a scale and calipers.  Exactly 33.4 grams and 34mm.  He even did an x-ray (XRF Analysis he called it) and found it to contain 88.9% gold, 9.9% copper, 1.0% platinum, and .3% silver.  

Does the above help?  Mti had a lot of areas circled that makes me concerned too.

 

Your jeweler does not have his XRF in correct calibration. As noted the coin should be 90% gold and 10% copper. Although platinum and silver are common in California gold, refining in use by the 1870s (at the latest) should have removed all of those. If it was once in jewelry, that would explain the odd surfaces.

You could consign it to Heritage Auctions and see what they say about authenticity and value.

[MOBlackmur]

I thank everyone here for some guidance.  I took it to my local coin shop and they said it looked authentic but may see decreased value because it was cleaned.  We sent it to PCGS for grading.  He was surprised when it came back with an XF45 grade.

I think that's pretty good. 

My next question is how does one sell a rare coin like this?  Local coin shop said they have 2 auctions a year.  I was thinking a larger audience on a national level.  Any advice on this?

[RWB]

Glad you got a "surprise" grade.

Look through Heritage and Stacks-Bowers auction prices for identical coins, and also ebay. These can give you a range of possible values. Just remember to deduct the cost of selling from the prices you see.

Edited April 22, 2021 by RWB

[Woods020]

Congratulations!! We see so many people think they have a treasure only to get bad news. It’s nice to see it work out and surprise someone the other way. 

[Coinbuf]

That is great you got a straight grade, congrats.   The last XF45 I see sold thru Stacks and went for $18k just over a year ago.  That helps set a possible target price, as to a selling venue you will need to review all the costs involved in consigning to the various auction outlets.   Great Collections will likely have the lowest seller fees but may not get quite as much exposure as you could get from Heritage or Stacks.  Legend is another boutique auction venue but I have no idea of what their seller fees or how much market exposure you would get with them.

[GoldFinger1969]

Congrats on your windfall, Mo.   The pictures in the holder are LIGHT-YEARS better than the 1st set....there was no gold color in those pics, which really threw me for a loop.

I see Heritage sold a couple of XF45's for $16,800 each (including bp) about 3 years ago.  Only 1 sold higher, about 5 years ago, but it was in an OGH despite only grading XF40.

Edited April 26, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[MOBlackmur]

Great Collections sold one yesterday for $23,752 that was XF40.  https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/972973

The verbiage on the listing states "We believe less than 375 coins exist today in all grades".  I guess they should make that 376 coins...

I'm excited!

[Oldhoopster]

I always love it when somebody posts a question about a find/inheritance and it turns out they have something great.   Way to go @MOBlackmur.

 

That should make up for the next few dozen "Is my road rash coin an error" posts. 

[Hoghead515]

That is awsome news my friend. Very excited for you. Glad it came back authentic and got a straight grade. 

[J P M]

Congratulations. It is always nice to see a happy ending

[Grant Gerlinger]

Glad it came back authentic. I agree with @GoldFinger1969 the color looks much more like what I would expect in the graded picture. That’s an awesome find for sure!

[Just Bob]

 

On 4/26/2021 at 7:48 AM, MOBlackmur said:

I'm excited!

No one can blame you for that. 

I'm a little surprised to read that it came back "authentic," but, I have to admit that I am a lot surprised that it got a straight grade. Pleasantly surprised, though. Like the others, I thoroughly enjoy reading threads in which the poster finds a genuine, valuable coin. Congratulations, and good luck in your upcoming auction/sale!! 

 

PS. All of the newbies who accuse us of being jealous or not wanting them to succeed, when we give them bad news about their supposed rarities, should be pointed to this thread. Every member of this board is happy to see someone score big like this. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I'm a little surprised to read that it came back "authentic," but, I have to admit that I am a lot surprised that it got a straight grade. Pleasantly surprised, though. Like the others, I thoroughly enjoy reading threads in which the poster finds a genuine, valuable coin. Congratulations, and good luck in your upcoming auction/sale!! 

PS. All of the newbies who accuse us of being jealous or not wanting them to succeed, when we give them bad news about their supposed rarities, should be pointed to this thread. Every member of this board is happy to see someone score big like this. 

Hear-hear......and while not blaming Mo, the 1st set of pics were so bad and did not do the coin justice.  There's NO gold color at all in them....contrast that with the pics in the PCGS holder.  Light-years difference.

Future picture takers....take note !! 

 

[MOBlackmur]

Yeah, sorry about that.  The first pics were taken indoors under incandescent lights.  I took the graded pics outside on my deck which was natural sunlight.  Take note pic takers?