What is it about Proof Sets?! 0

[rocket23]

I've noticed, somewhat perplexingly, why are proof coins worth more separately than when packaged together. Case in point according to ''red book''. The face value price of a 1986 proof set is .91 .  U.S. mint cost at time of mintage was 7.00$ The gross summary of the proof coins sold individually is close to 26.00 bucks,(assuming pf65) again according to red book, however sold as a package (with original government packaging) and it retails for 7.50$....Now there is a discrepancy with the red book declared value, set at 1.82.....also all the sets I have seen did not include a dollar valued coin. We are dealing with a .50 cent halve pf, a quarter dollar pf, A dime pf,a nickle pf, and a penny pf. To be clear.

[Alex in PA.]

A long time ago I sent all my 1950s and 1960s Proof Sets to NGC for grading a encapsulation.  A  couple years later I checked and the individual prices far out distanced the cost of the set from the Mint.

[rocket23]

My point is even stronger with later sets....A proof coin is a proof coin! why the mark down just because they are combined as a set?? makes little sense if any to me.......take a 2006 american eagle proof set, 1st reverse proof with a enhanced proof along with a burnished coin sold as a set is 185.00....the enhanced coin alone can fetch north of that figure alone.

[GoldFinger1969]

It's usually the case that when something is "broken up" the individual pieces are worth more than the whole.

True in corporate M&A.....true in breaking up collections of tangible assets.

[rocket23]

Doesn't help the hobby in my view.......

[GoldFinger1969]

17 minutes ago, rocket23 said:

Doesn't help the hobby in my view.......

Proof sets have been notoriously poor performers price-wise over the decades so people will do whatever they can to maximize the value.

[numisport]

I think many miss the obvious reason proof sets are broken up to start with. Prior to 1972 only a small portion had heavy cameo contrast and the other 95 percent are more or less generic looking coins which if compared side by side are far less desirable thus worth far less. Beyond 1978 nearly all are high grade coins with ultra heavy contrast and nearly all look essentially the same until they tone. Proof coins of 1936 to 1942 are usually treated as singles because of poor surface preservation mostly due to packaging. Also remember that in those years proofs were also sold individually and even further some were spent. There might be some sets prior to 1965 in pliofilm that had all coins with heavy contrast in high grade but I have never seen one. This would be the ultimate prize and should not be broken up.

Edited February 6, 2021 by numisport

[MarkFeld]

I wouldn’t rely just upon the “red book” or any one guide for accurate values. The “red book” (and thus, it’s listed prices) goes to press long before its published, each year.

And it’s not just proof sets that usually sell for less, as sets. The same goes for various sets of commemoratives, uncirculated sets or any other kind of set. Sure, some buyers are looking for entire sets, but many others seek individual coins and don’t want entire sets. So the latter either pass on the sets or will only buy them at discounted prices. Each buyer has a certain amount he can or will spend on a transaction. As a result, at a certain price level, they can’t buy an entire set, even if they’d like to. Generally speaking, the more coins in a set and the higher it’s value, the more likely it will sell at a higher price, if broken up.

[RWB]

Individual proof coins sell for much more than the original set largely because there are collectors who want only one specific coin. This lone denomination might cost almost as much as the full set due to handling, markup and demand. Check the situation with 1970 Kennedy halves for a good example.

Some years ago it was common to find proof sets with just one denomination cut from original packaging. This might have been a nice cameo proof while the other coins were ordinary. That one "money coin" could bring many times the value of a typical proof set of the same date.

[GoldFinger1969]

Classic -- and recent -- example of the value of breaking up a proof set would be the 1995-W ASE with AGEs.  The 1995-W sells for thousands because folks need it in their type set.

[Conder101]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:30 AM, rocket23 said:

..A proof coin is a proof coin! why the mark down just because they are combined as a set??

It isn't a mark DOWN because it is part of a set, it is a significant mark UP for the trouble of having to holder, inventory, and market five individual pieces instead of one sale for the whole set.  Think about most any other piece of merchandise that is made up of multiple parts, say a car.  If you price out all the individual parts the total will be MUCH higher than the cost of the whole car.  The price , handling, and profit margins built into each individual part greatly exceeds that of the entire item.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:37 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's usually the case that when something is "broken up" the individual pieces are worth more than the whole.

True in corporate M&A.....true in breaking up collections of tangible assets.

[Notably auto parts.]

[jtryka]

This is all due to the way collectors collect.  For example, I have dansco albums for pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters and halves, but I only include proofs in the pennies, nickels and dimes.  So I order one proof set and break it up for the pennies through dimes and sell off the quarters, halves and dollars.  This math makes sense since the clad set might cost $27, but if I bought those three coins separately I might spend $20, so I can usually sell the extra quarters, halves and dollars and get more than the $7 difference and I'm ahead. I used to do the same with a silver proof set, until the price of that set became insane, so now rather than buying a silver set just for the dime, I just buy the dime separately for $8 or $9 on ebay, which is higher than it might warrant from a set price standpoint, but for me, $9 for the one coin I need is better than $83 for the one coin I need and 8 or 9 that I don't need, and I wouldn't need to deal with the hassle of selling the extras.

[Henri Charriere]

[Hard to believe it happened a quarter of a century ago but one of the more memorable, "want-the-coin? buy-the-set" scenarios involved the proof 1995-W ASE's some 30,000 of which were struck and available only to collectors who purchased the 10th Anniversary 4-coin gold set  for $999. My recollection is there was little or no advance notice and by the time the phenomenon was recognized it was too late to respond and the value of those manufactured rarities peaked at $30,000. I leave it to others to debate whether this was done intentionally or not.]

[GoldFinger1969]

7 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Hard to believe it happened a quarter of a century ago but one of the more memorable, "want-the-coin? buy-the-set" scenarios involved the proof 1995-W ASE's some 30,000 of which were struck and available only to collectors who purchased the 10th Anniversary 4-coin gold set  for $999. My recollection is there was little or no advance notice and by the time the phenomenon was recognized it was too late to respond and the value of those manufactured rarities peaked at $30,000. I leave it to others to debate whether this was done intentionally or not.]

Nobody wanted to buy the gold coins to get the 1995-W ASE.  Later on, it became a key date.

Highest price paid I believe was for a PF70 DCAM -- $86,000, I believe.  I think you can get that same coin or one substantially the same for about $15,000 today. 

[rocket23]

6 hours ago, Conder101 said:

It isn't a mark DOWN because it is part of a set, it is a significant mark UP for the trouble of having to holder, inventory, and market five individual pieces instead of one sale for the whole set.  Think about most any other piece of merchandise that is made up of multiple parts, say a car.  If you price out all the individual parts the total will be MUCH higher than the cost of the whole car.  The price , handling, and profit margins built into each individual part greatly exceeds that of the entire item.

except for breakfast....eggs .20 (.84 a doz.), toast .15 (2 slices at 1.69 divided by 22.),1 potato .18..(5lbs .@.99),2 slices bacon (1.99 per lb)

  All for under a buck and yet the meal is closer to 10 Amazing, but then we don't drive or collect breakfast.

[Just Bob]

19 hours ago, rocket23 said:

except for breakfast....eggs .20 (.84 a doz.), toast .15 (2 slices at 1.69 divided by 22.),1 potato .18..(5lbs .@.99),2 slices bacon (1.99 per lb)

  All for under a buck and yet the meal is closer to 10 Amazing, but then we don't drive or collect breakfast.

Where are you buying a dozen eggs for $0.84, or 5 lbs of potatoes for 99 cents? I need to shop there.

 

[rocket23]

4 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Where are you buying a dozen eggs for $0.84, or 5 lbs of potatoes for 99 cents? I need to shop there.

 

ALDI all of over the east coast.........lot of their stuff is knock off from a name brand...but the eggs and 'tatres are dirt cheap.

[RWB]

Knock-off chickens....that lay 'taters, too.

[rocket23]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Knock-off chickens....that lay 'taters, too.

Thats gotta hurt....

[Conder101]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

My recollection is there was little or no advance notice and by the time the phenomenon was recognized it was too late to respond

There was some advanced notice and the sets were on sale for awhile.  They were prepared to produce and sell 50,000 of them but only a little over 31,000 were sold.  It was not a sell out.  What was wieird was the sold the 10th anniversary set (4 gold and the ASE) for $999, they also sold the regular 4 piece gold proof set for $999.  Same price but the anniversary set had the extra coin, but the sold a bunch of the 4 coins sets as well.

[Conder101]

11 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Where are you buying a dozen eggs for $0.84

I don't have access to an Aldi's here, but eggs at Wal-Mart here are just $1 a dozen (Large eggs, Jumbos are $1.20) so 2 eggs would be 17 cents.  What do eggs cost you?

[rocket23]

3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I don't have access to an Aldi's here, but eggs at Wal-Mart here are just $1 a dozen (Large eggs, Jumbos are $1.20) so 2 eggs would be 17 cents.  What do eggs cost you?

Less than a proof set. Lol 😂 

[cladking]

Many collectors who are interested in moderns think it's a numismatic sin to bust up mint and proof sets.  Of course there also exists demand for each coin in these sets that has nothing to do with owners or potential owners of sets.  

There are other reasons that people avoid busting up sets such as some of them require skill or knowledge to open and a different set of skill to dispose of the unwanted coins in them.  People generally aren't aware that there will be a few coins in these sets that EACH sell for more than the cost of the set.  

These factors lead to a massive wholesale market for singles.  All through the modern age this market has existed and countless millions of sets have been destroyed to supply it. 

Many coins in these sets are substandard and can't be used by the wholesaler and most will wind up in circulation.  Then to really complicate matters large percentages of the coins and sets are tarnishing.  Coins like PR 1985 half dollars are often discolored.  1975 UNC dollars were substandard more than a thirds of the time and now the majority of the few survivors in mint sets are tarnished. This coin wholesales for $4 now and isn't often seen for sale.  But you can buy a mint set containing the coin for $4.  

It's likely 60% of the old PR sets and 90% of the old mint sets are gone now.  20% of the proof coins surviving in sets are tarnished and 80% of (some date) mint sets are tarnished.  Some people will also buy sets to simply acquire better coins.  How many tarnished 1968 half dollars will someone look at in mint sets before he just buys one.  It's a simple $5 coin so why run around looking?  

[Just Bob]

8 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I don't have access to an Aldi's here, but eggs at Wal-Mart here are just $1 a dozen (Large eggs, Jumbos are $1.20) so 2 eggs would be 17 cents.  What do eggs cost you?

My sister, stepdaughter, and one of my neighbors all have chickens, so they usually keep us in eggs, but if they are out, we buy from some other local farmers. Fresh farm eggs usually go from $1.50 to $3 a dozen. The advantage, besides being chemical/antibiotic free, is that they will last a month just sitting on the counter - if you don't wash them until you get ready to use them.

To be honest ,I haven't bought eggs from the store in so long I wasn't sure what they were selling for, so I stopped by the local grocery store this morning. Large eggs ranged from $1.69 for the store brand to $4.19 for organic.

I checked potatoes while I was there. Russets were 5 lbs/$3.69,and 5 lb bags of reds were $2.50.

[rocket23]

4 hours ago, cladking said:

Many collectors who are interested in moderns think it's a numismatic sin to bust up mint and proof sets.  Of course there also exists demand for each coin in these sets that has nothing to do with owners or potential owners of sets.  

There are other reasons that people avoid busting up sets such as some of them require skill or knowledge to open and a different set of skill to dispose of the unwanted coins in them.  People generally aren't aware that there will be a few coins in these sets that EACH sell for more than the cost of the set.  

These factors lead to a massive wholesale market for singles.  All through the modern age this market has existed and countless millions of sets have been destroyed to supply it. 

Many coins in these sets are substandard and can't be used by the wholesaler and most will wind up in circulation.  Then to really complicate matters large percentages of the coins and sets are tarnishing.  Coins like PR 1985 half dollars are often discolored.  1975 UNC dollars were substandard more than a thirds of the time and now the majority of the few survivors in mint sets are tarnished. This coin wholesales for $4 now and isn't often seen for sale.  But you can buy a mint set containing the coin for $4.  

It's likely 60% of the old PR sets and 90% of the old mint sets are gone now.  20% of the proof coins surviving in sets are tarnished and 80% of (some date) mint sets are tarnished.  Some people will also buy sets to simply acquire better coins.  How many tarnished 1968 half dollars will someone look at in mint sets before he just buys one.  It's a simple $5 coin so why run around looking?  

I managed 10 1986 proof sets....at 3 bucks a piece...the proof quarter(s) 4 bucks a piece at pf 65.

 translate that to 10 proof quarters sold all at same time and It would be a lot less than 40 bucks I'm sure of it. Just another quandary coin collecting....errrrrr. numismatics.