From the Top, Down; Combatting the 'Market acceptability' of Counterfeit US Coins and HPA-noncompliant Numismatic Replicas 1 1

[ProfHaroldHill]

This is a thread where you, the reader, get to follow along as the works of ne'er-do-wells and scoundrels are exposed and attacked by the relentless forces unleashed by my keyboard and smartphone/cam etc.

It's not a thread to make accusations of grave impropriety and/or criminal activity against any person or company, and I hope none will do so.

Tomorrow, before lunch, I have a teleconference scheduled where I will be speaking to someone from the US Secret Service. Not a receptionist-type person, but a person who knows the law regarding counterfeits and the judicial history of their enforcement. The result of this discussion will likely determine whether the primary pursuers of justice will be federal agents or non-agent coin collectors. (This item is a counterfeit US coin, and it is also an item in violation of the US Hobby Protection Act.)

My target tomorrow is the counterfeit US Sacagawea Dollar coin seen below, and all its 'cousins', (publicized over at CU/PCGS.)  I will update the thread after the discussion, sometime tomorrow.

This 'coin' was not legally produced even though it was made at the US Mint.  It was never issued by the US Government, it could not have been accidentally made, and removal of it from the US Mint was a criminal act. This item is not lawful to possess or to sell. It is subject to seizure as an item of US federal contraband.

By taking down the public perception of a growing acceptability of flagrant violations of criminal law and the Hobby Protection Act, we can not only help the collectors of today and tomorrow financially, we can also work to restore some dignity to a hobby too often tainted by the greed-driven actions of a few.

[GoldFinger1969]

Compared to the frauds out there, the accidental release of some Sacagawea Coins (how many ?) doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that will bring down the coin collecting hobby.

This "coin" is a mistrike.....a double-strike of the Sacagawea Dollar and Lincoln Penny, is that right ?

[GoldFinger1969]

While you're on the call with the SS, ask him if the SS, Treasury, or Mint still adhere to the opinion of that Treasury official in the 1960's who said that seizure of all the patterns, Liberty Nickles, and other accidental releases (those not "officially" released) etc....was LEGAL.   I forgot his name but can look it up.

Edited December 10, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[ProfHaroldHill]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

While you're on the call with the SS, ask him if the SS, Treasury, or Mint still adhere to the opinion of that Treasury official in the 1960's who said that seizure of all the patterns, Liberty Nickles, and other accidental releases (those not "officially" released) etc....was LEGAL.   I forgot his name but can look it up.

The Department of the Treasury is an executive agency of the US federal government. 

No officer of the Treasury can either countermand the anti-counterfeiting laws crafted by the legislative branch of government, or dictate, (or otherwise make,) any law whatsoever.

Any such proclamation was legally moot from the moment it was uttered.

These items, the Sacagawea pieces, were intentionally produced and were intentionally made to leave the US Mint without legal authority.

Once they had left the mint those who caused their release were guilty of uttering counterfeit US Dollars and the items at that same moment attained the status of counterfeit.

These are legally incomparable to either the 1913 Liberty nickels or any US pattern coinage. 

 

[ProfHaroldHill]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Compared to the frauds out there, the accidental release of some Sacagawea Coins (how many ?) doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that will bring down the coin collecting hobby.

This "coin" is a mistrike.....a double-strike of the Sacagawea Dollar and Lincoln Penny, is that right ?

These were not accidentally released.

The fact that PCGS has authenticated and encapsulated the counterfeits will lend a false cachet to the items in the minds of many.

It's that perception that is being fought here, the false notion that somehow they are indicated as legal, and 'okay', by being certified by PCGS. 

The only way you can fight the perception is by going after the coins.

The 'violations' of the certifiers are only ethical issues, but the issues surrounding the Sacagawea pieces are criminal matters.

 

[ProfHaroldHill]

That these pieces are legally subject to seizure is evident. Whether the Feds will be motivated in that direction is unknowable at the moment.

I'm not under the impression that the US Govt is very likely to act, as can be seen in my mention previously of the possibility that it will have to be collectors pursuing justice. 

The HPA violation involves the Lincoln Cent over stamping, imitating an error coin.

The counterfeiting was the utterance of the renditions of the US dollars.

The biggest blow to market acceptability would be struck by the feds publicly noting the pieces for seizure.

Barring that, the HPA offers the possibility of a civil legal battle. Not as desirable a battlefield, in my opinion, but definitely an alternative one.

[MAULEMALL]

molon labe

Edited December 10, 2020 by MAULEMALL

[Conder101]

You might try conversion of government property for personal gain.  While they were in the mint the dollars were still government property, the unauthorized use of the press to make the piece was use of government property, and the smuggling them out and sell them was for personal gain.  All of this is illegal so title of these pieces would remain with the government,  They are government property.

[GoldFinger1969]

How many "coins" are we talking about ?  It's a penny-Sacagawea combination mistrike, right ?

[ProfHaroldHill]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:14 AM, MAULEMALL said:

molon labe

'Render that which is Caesar's unto Caesar', and thus cleanse your hands of the sins of others.

[ProfHaroldHill]

On 12/10/2020 at 7:49 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How many "coins" are we talking about ?  It's a penny-Sacagawea combination mistrike, right ?

PCGS error coin expert Fred Weinberg, a few years ago, said publicly that:

(August 19, 2017 10:13AM CU/PCGS)

"There are about eight known of the Cent struck on to a Sac Dollar, and a proxy the same number of cents struck onto struck New Hampshire quarters. There are also a few other single pieces of a similar nature"

Well, unless the person(s) who made them is a fool, they struck a few hundred, (including things 'wilder' than what has surfaced,) then threw a couple of dozen into the 'bins' to be released into circulation.

Once they had been discovered, and PCGS began attempting to 'legitimize' them via authentication, certification, and the use of the term "error" to categorize them, the maker(s) then, VERY slowly, start to sell off their contraband, at first only the 'tame' items, such as we've seen, eventually bizarre creations designed to fetch the highest bids at auction.

Legally speaking, you could call that an, 'organized criminal enterprise'.

These items required the intentional bypassing of safety mechanisms and the temporary alteration of components of the coinage press in close proximity to the striking chamber.

They are not "mistrikes", they were intentionally overstruck. Genuine errors that leave the Mint via lawfully authorized 'channels', are legal to own and sell.

These and the other items referenced by Mr Weinberg, are not.

[MAULEMALL]

3 hours ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

'Render that which is Caesar's unto Caesar', and thus cleanse your hands of the sins of others.

I will stand with Leonidas before crawling with any Roman..

[ProfHaroldHill]

18 minutes ago, MAULEMALL said:

I will stand with Leonidas before crawling with any Roman..

I judge thee noble and loyal, if misguided.

But know this, oh best among the Spartans... the Centurions shall seize that which is Caesar's, if it not be given unto Caesar! 

[MAULEMALL]

53 minutes ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

I judge thee noble and loyal, if misguided.

But know this, oh best among the Spartans... the Centurions shall seize that which is Caesar's, if it not be given unto Caesar! 

Again.. 

molon labe

[VKurtB]

22 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

Again.. 

molon labe

They will.

[brg5658]

A bumpkin who knows Greek?  Impressive.

[MAULEMALL]

3 hours ago, brg5658 said:

A bumpkin who knows Greek?  Impressive.

A sufficiently_retarded_person who does Greek.. How meh...

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by MAULEMALL
bigredneckgoober replied

[Moxie15]

I think if you brought your original argument to a court you would get beat by a first year law student. I do not think a coin struck by a mint employee at the mint while using official dies, planchets, equipment, and paid employees can fall under the definition of counterfeit. 

If the employee struck the coin and let it go into the struck coin hopper and it went through all the steps and was released into general population then you would likely lose the argument of using government property for personal gain.

I expect your conversation will not accomplish much beyond making you feel proud of yourself. In a court of law it is not what is true, nor what is right, but what can be proven.

 

[Hoghead515]

I figured they would have cameras all over the place in there to watch over the employees. And catch whoever is doing it. 

[Moxie15]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I figured they would have cameras all over the place in there to watch over the employees. And catch whoever is doing it. 

If they know who it was they likely fired him. I doubt they could do much else unless they caught him stealing. Then, has there ever been a criminal case against a mint employee over such things?

[ProfHaroldHill]

On 12/13/2020 at 11:47 AM, Moxie15 said:

I think if you brought your original argument to a court you would get beat by a first year law student. I do not think a coin struck by a mint employee at the mint while using official dies, planchets, equipment, and paid employees can fall under the definition of counterfeit. 

If the employee struck the coin and let it go into the struck coin hopper and it went through all the steps and was released into general population then you would likely lose the argument of using government property for personal gain.

I expect your conversation will not accomplish much beyond making you feel proud of yourself. In a court of law it is not what is true, nor what is right, but what can be proven.

 

Thank you for the opportunity for me to clarify some common misunderstandings.

I could not appear, as you portray in your scenario, (nor could any other individual acting on their own, for themselves,) in a criminal court prosecuting charges of counterfeiting against any person(s). 

In criminal cases, where the liberty of a person may be in jeopardy, the evidentiary standard for conviction is not, "what can be proven", but that which is made evident "beyond a reasonable doubt". The criminal justice system is where the agencies of government seek to maintain justice by penalty against the violators of statutory criminal codes.

I, or anyone, can indeed appear before a civil court seeking not justice, but redress of grievance and just compensation for the aggrieved. The evidentiary standard for judgement in the favor of a litigant in a civil trial is a, "preponderance of the evidence."

Regarding the success of your first year law student? Not one of the arguments you/they make would provide a defense against a counterfeiting charge (Re USC Title 18) The crime of counterfeiting occurs when a person(s) utters an unauthorized rendition of US money. (Today it's only 'current money', the rest are seen legally as civil violations of the Hobby Protection Act.)

Understand that there has never been a successful defense against counterfeiting charges based on judicial limitation of the term "utter" ('utters' 'utterance', etc.) There has been no narrowing of the legal definition of the term by the courts in response to the pleadings of any individual so charged. Simply explaining that they were struck at the mint, by an employee, with all the right stuff, etc, does not refute the charge of uttering a counterfeit.

They uttered the counterfeits by causing them to leave the custody of the US Mint. The legal authorization to issue coins is only for coins that meet the criteria of the order authorizing issuance. These pieces were removed from the legal chain of issuance in order to alter them. Once altered, they were no longer authorized by law to be issued from the Mint as coins. Their production and removal from the Mint readily establishes an "utterance" of the pieces.

If the Govt wished to obtain an authorization to seize these particular counterfeits, all they would need in order to secure the order, would be a presentation to the court of evidence of the 'coins' authentication by a recognized expert of a prominent professional coin grading/authentication service.

It doesn't matter 'who' made them or 'how' the pieces got out of the US Mint without authorization.

That they reside in PCGS holders, certified as genuine US Mint products, and can be seen to have been altered inside the US Mint, (rendering them unlawful issues, as explained above,) would be amply sufficient to establish their counterfeit status in order to obtain the authority to seize.

This isn't particularly complicated really, as law goes.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by ProfHaroldHill
Corrected phrase and expanded explanation.

[MAULEMALL]

4 minutes ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

 

I could not appear, (nor could any other individual acting on their own, for themselves,) in a criminal court seeking charges against any person(s).

In criminal cases, where the liberty of a person may be in jeopardy, the evidentiary standard for conviction is not, "what can be proven", but that which is made evident "beyond a reasonable doubt". The criminal justice system is where the agencies of government seek to maintain justice by penalty against the violators of statutory criminal codes.

Actually you can. All you have to do is swear out a warrant. 

[ProfHaroldHill]

22 minutes ago, MAULEMALL said:

Actually you can. All you have to do is swear out a warrant. 

A warrant is an order that is issued by the court. You couldn't craft one yourself and then use it to try and imprison someone via a criminal court, solely on the authority of the oath you took, when swearing that your charge was true.

Only the government whose legislative branch codified the criminal law, can bring an executive action in the name of the people, against the violators of that law.

Criminal accusations made in the name of the people are reserved to the authorized representatives of the issuing authority.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by ProfHaroldHill

[MAULEMALL]

8 minutes ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

A warrant is an order that is issued by the court. You couldn't craft one yourself and then use it to try and imprison someone via a criminal court, solely on the authority of the oath you took, when swearing that your charge was true.

Only the government whose legislative branch codified the criminal law, can bring an executive action in the name of the people, against the violators of that law.

Criminal accusations made in the name of the people are reserved to the authorized representatives of the issuing authority.

 

I have had warrents issued for criminal court numerous times.. Just prior to the actual case being called I spoke with the commonwealths atty. At which time he has the option to assist in the case or not.. 1 was a felony one a class a misdemeanor.. I collected the evidence and I presented to the judge. The commonwealths atty was there to object to procedural accounts..

He was found guilty of a lesser charge after he made financial restitution.. I won my case that I brought before the court. Not the government. Me, Mr private citizen.

[Moxie15]

Fine, Prof, whatever you say. Good luck with that windmill.

Oh, by the way, the standard in a criminal case id Proven Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, not what is evident

[jtryka]

If these coins went out through normal channels of commerce from the mint, wouldn't they by definition be authorized?  I am not familiar with these specific coins but if they went out in mint bags to the Fed, they would be authorized, but if they went out the back door with an employee then it would seem they were stolen property (in this case what should have been scrap) but not necessarily counterfeits.

[ProfHaroldHill]

On 12/13/2020 at 3:42 PM, MAULEMALL said:

I have had warrents issued for criminal court numerous times.. Just prior to the actual case being called I spoke with the commonwealths atty. At which time he has the option to assist in the case or not.. 1 was a felony one a class a misdemeanor.. I collected the evidence and I presented to the judge. The commonwealths atty was there to object to procedural accounts..

He was found guilty of a lesser charge after he made financial restitution.. I won my case that I brought before the court. Not the government. Me, Mr private citizen.

Here, the authority gave you the option, as victim, to say 'yes or no' to a prosecution they had already decided they would do, if you wanted them to.

But nevertheless, in a true, literal sense, you have indeed shown my earlier statement was too broad and therefore, in the situation you described, it is incorrect. Mea culpa.

But keep in mind they *gave you* that authority, (via the choice to file or not,) because you were the victim.

If they had offered you a 'yes or no', to a charge of battery against someone who hit you, and you said, 'No, charge them with attempted murder..." they're not going to do it, and you can't sign a sworn statement that will force them too. I was responding to Moxie15's scenario where I was portrayed as handling the prosecution of a counterfeiter. That's a crime against the USA, not against me.

If an individual really did have the authority to compel another to stand trial, without requiring a local agency of government to act as a sort of 'gatekeeper' to the court,  and based solely on their sworn statement, imagine what it would be like...

Someone is murdered in a town and six people are SURE they know 'who done it', (each has a different suspect in mind, tho,) so they each go down and swear out a statement, thereby forcing six people to stand trial for capital murder, even tho only one of them could be guilty, (and maybe it wasn't even one of the six!)

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

7 minutes ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

Here, the authority gave you the option, as victim, to say 'yes or no' to a prosecution they had already decided they would do, if you wanted them to.

I don't think you have an actual grasp of the legal system. The ability to address grievances lies in the citizenry. I prosecuted them. Not the court.

[ProfHaroldHill]

7 hours ago, jtryka said:

If these coins went out through normal channels of commerce from the mint, wouldn't they by definition be authorized?  I am not familiar with these specific coins but if they went out in mint bags to the Fed, they would be authorized, but if they went out the back door with an employee then it would seem they were stolen property (in this case what should have been scrap) but not necessarily counterfeits.

The authorization to issue is very specific to the coin being issued; composition, quantity, weight, design(s) etc. Also, the coins can only be issued from the mint by an authorized agent; the mint official(s). Once the Sacageweas were altered by being overstruck with the cent dies, they no longer met the specs required to be issued. Every other coin in the bin (or ballistic nylon bag,) still 'fit the billing', and as they were released they all became lawful US money, but the altered coins immediately became counterfeits. If the counterfeiters had pulled 500 $1 coins out of a bag, and then only used 200 of them, tossing the others back, those 300 tossed back would still be legally issued coins once they were shipped out of the mint. It would make no difference that someone had handled them for bit while the coins were sitting, waiting to be release.

If you and I broke into the mint, (or if we were employees in there legally,)  and we struck up a bunch of coins, using all the proper equipment, and we managed to have them slip through the usual release channels, so that they left the custody of the mint, we'd still be charged with counterfeiting when we were caught.  In this case the coins would even "met the design specs" for authorized release, but we were not authorized as agents of the issuing authority to manufacture and release into circulation, the 'extra' coins that we struck. (Counterfeiting would be the charge even if we never got our hands on the extra coins after they left the mint.)

 

 

[ProfHaroldHill]

13 minutes ago, MAULEMALL said:

I don't think you have an actual grasp of the legal system. The ability to address grievances lies in the citizenry. I prosecuted them. Not the court.

In the past 27 years I have initiated multiple civil causes, filed thousands of documents and pleadings and have not once "settled" or lost.

Above I was simply trying to help those who didn't understand that the civil and criminal courts are different, even tho they're often conducted in the same rooms.

You haven't refuted what I have clarified to you, only disagreed with it. I think you're not grasping the full purport of my words when I delineate definitions, dude.