What defines a "Conservative" or "Liberal" coin grader 1 1

[VKurtB]

30 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Lots of AU-58's look nicer than low-60's MS coins.

And it's even more true when dealing with paper currency and the off-center margins look terrible for some 60's-graded paper vs. lower-graded paper with better eye appeal but hidden warts.

Yes, this. And this is ALSO what the TPGS's cannot tolerate and are trying to find a way to "fix" it that the hobby will support.

[RonnieR131]

I noticed the lack of MS-60. GOLD coin in hand, no magnification, AU58's, in my opinion, are more eye appealing than MS60-63, with exceptions, of course. You say buy the coin, not the grade, then AU58 is king, expense wise.  Dealer buying and selling, registry sets, etc., then the 58 can take a back seat, MS is where it's at. I know I'm not qualified to even offer an opinion, especially among you that have written books, dealt, and graded coins for decades. But just in case you've kind of inevitably lost touch with us normal people,  (kidding), a lot of my friends opinions are the same.  

[VKurtB]

54 minutes ago, Insider said:

Not at all.  IMO, you are a fine addition to any coin forum.  I have little tolerance for misinformation from members who are uninformed; folks who do not answer direct questions; and those who leave a discussion because (for whatever the reason) they don't choose to back up their opinion. 

I can't blame you here. HOWEVER, and this is a biggie, even the way people react to this pandemic is HIGHLY predictable once one knows another person's "politics". Politics is getting to be (It wasn't always like this, I swear.) the way people think about everything, whether they realize it regularly or not. My current theory is that our choices of media outlets leads ALL of us down a particular primrose path. Some people are aware of it, others aren't. We've become two "tribes", and I don't see it ever changing again.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, ronnie stein said:

I noticed the lack of MS-60. GOLD coin in hand, no magnification, AU58's, in my opinion, are more eye appealing than MS60-63, with exceptions, of course. You say buy the coin, not the grade, then AU58 is king, expense wise.  Dealer buying and selling, registry sets, etc., then the 58 can take a back seat, MS is where it's at. I know I'm not qualified to even offer an opinion, especially among you that have written books, dealt, and graded coins for decades. But just in case you've kind of inevitably lost touch with us normal people,  (kidding), a lot of my friends opinions are the same.  

I think you make some excellent points, Ronnie.  While I have not seen AU-58 coins priced higher than low-60's coins, I have seen a bit of a "kink" in pricing at that level.  You are more likely to see a higher price at 58 or a very narrow gap with paper, IMO.

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think you make some excellent points, Ronnie.  While I have not seen AU-58 coins priced higher than low-60's coins, I have seen a bit of a "kink" in pricing at that level.  You are more likely to see a higher price at 58 or a very narrow gap with paper, IMO.

If we're going to insist that there needs to be a "hard line" between "some wear" and "no wear" (A proposition I do not support, by the way.), then it needs to be okay, NORMAL even, for an AU58 coin to sell for more than even a MS62 of the same type, date, and mintmark. The ONLY other option is to "redefine" the entire range from 55 to 62.

[GoldFinger1969]

48 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

If we're going to insist that there needs to be a "hard line" between "some wear" and "no wear" (A proposition I do not support, by the way.), then it needs to be okay, NORMAL even, for an AU58 coin to sell for more than even a MS62 of the same type, date, and mintmark. The ONLY other option is to "redefine" the entire range from 55 to 62.

Kurt, if the AU58 has the slightest wear and/or loss of luster....but pretty clean fields and devices....then it is by definition a circulated coin and grades lower -- and thus, SHOULD sell for less $$$ -- than ANY low-60's Mint State graded coin which can have lots of bag marks but which NEVER circulated.

That said, unless I win the Lotto any time soon , if/when I decide to buy a 1907 Saint High Relief, I am probably going to go for the AU58 which looks better and is cheaper than MS60-62 coins, the only others I might be able to afford.

[VKurtB]

13 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Kurt, if the AU58 has the slightest wear and/or loss of luster....but pretty clean fields and devices....then it is by definition a circulated coin and grades lower -- and thus, SHOULD sell for less $$$ -- than ANY low-60's Mint State graded coin which can have lots of bag marks but which NEVER circulated.

That said, unless I win the Lotto any time soon , if/when I decide to buy a 1907 Saint High Relief, I am probably going to go for the AU58 which looks better and is cheaper than MS60-62 coins, the only others I might be able to afford.

No one will EVER get me to pay more for a bagged to death MS61 than an attractive AU58, of ANY series.I literally believe the 58 should bring a higher price. Maybe if I cared about Registry points, but I don't.

Edited October 22, 2020 by VKurtB

[Moxie15]

an AU 58 is not a MS 60 with a slight bit of wear. It is closer to an MS 68 that got slid across the counter once. A 60 that is showing wear would be a 50 or 53 at best. A 58 should always look better than a 60.

[Moxie15]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

MS60 is the maximum "ugly" you can get without being an AU.

This I knew. but as @Insider said 60 is seldom used anymore. I see it as a symptom of what some call greadeflation or maybe a more apropos Liberal grading. 

[Insider]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I can't blame you here. HOWEVER, and this is a biggie, even the way people react to this pandemic is HIGHLY predictable once one knows another person's "politics". Politics is getting to be (It wasn't always like this, I swear.) the way people think about everything, whether they realize it regularly or not. My current theory is that our choices of media outlets leads ALL of us down a particular primrose path. Some people are aware of it, others aren't. We've become two "tribes", and I don't see it ever changing again.

Franklin said we gave you a Republic if you can keep it.  An informed citizen is the key.  That is accomplished by a free Press.  Unfortunately the Press has failed us all because there is more info about our country in the foreign press.  

Fortunately, some folks can disagree 100% with each other (for whatever their reason) and still talk coins.  I look forward to meeting them in person at the FUN Show.   

[Insider]

29 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

This I knew. but as @Insider said 60 is seldom used anymore. I see it as a symptom of what some call greadeflation or maybe a more apropos Liberal grading. 

Probably not gradflation.  Mostly because of the common price for 60-62 grades of many coin types.

I don't have time to discuss the AU-58 grade right now.  I've said/written many times that the folks who wrote the ANA standards (their so called "technical grading") screwed up the grading system forever by combining marks and wear in the circulated grades (choice/typical)!   Then the commercial  graders who buy and sell coins included VALUE into the TPG system to bastardize a coin's condition further and we have the mess we have today + CAC stickers.       

[Crawtomatic]

23 hours ago, Insider said:

Question?  If I show you a coin in a field you collect, would you be able to grade it without any influences from the market?

This is something I was wondering about as well.  I think I read somewhere that some TPGs disallow buying/selling/collecting by their graders.  Though, even that seems odd to me.

But if you're a grader, and a coin that comes in for a series you collect, then it's likely you know what the sweet spot is for population numbers, or at least pricing.  And you could infer what the submitter was hoping for - if it's a coin on the fence between 2 grades.  So do you lean towards "hey, good on this guy.  he just got the 2nd MS68 grade ever." or "it's close, but if I give it a 68 then my collection will devalue. sorry, charlie."

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:47 PM, Cat Bath said:

I replaced a 66+/CAC with a 65 non-CAC in my registry set ATS.

I'm happy with my decision.

Grading there has jumped the shark. (I couldn't even get a + on my 65 after two re-cons and it is better than 1/2 of the 67's I see)

It's bizzaro-world there...I give up.

You would think grading Mint State coins is a fairly straight-forward process but what I have found, with no anecdotal evidence to back up my claim, is if you are a collector of French 20-franc gold roosters, 1899-1914, you can expect to get a more accurate overall certification from the PCGS based in France than the one based in the United States (California) for what I would suggest is an obvious reason:  they deal with them on a daily basis whereas most collectors and dealers likely have no experience with them or have encountered them on a very limited basis.  It makes sense to me but most would argue this is not the way it should be.

[Does any of this mean I owe seasoned veteran MarkFeld an apology for my ill-tempered and unwarranted denunciation of a coin and series I know nothing about?  Yes, it does.]

The other thirty-six who have relegated me to the ignore chamber pot will just have to wait patiently in line.

[Insider]

16 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

This is something I was wondering about as well.  I think I read somewhere that some TPGs disallow buying/selling/collecting by their graders.  Though, even that seems odd to me.

But if you're a grader, and a coin that comes in for a series you collect, then it's likely you know what the sweet spot is for population numbers, or at least pricing.  And you could infer what the submitter was hoping for - if it's a coin on the fence between 2 grades.  So do you lean towards "hey, good on this guy.  he just got the 2nd MS68 grade ever." or "it's close, but if I give it a 68 then my collection will devalue. sorry, charlie."

AFAIK with permission most graders can still buy coins.  You do not want to sell a coin graded by your company, otherwise you can sell coins.  I've never had a problem at any company I worked for.  This may not be true for other services.

As to the rest of your question, I don't have a clue about pop reports or coin values.  However, I tend to know the rare varieties.  Also, after being teased for several years about grading a coin as I see it - thus turning a "commercial" $600 Morgan into a $1600 coin - I often check a Graysheet for the grade bump line.  IMO, this is one of the problems with grading.  You cannot grade a true MS-64 coin MS-64 because for that particular date, mint AND VALUE it must be a no question MS-64+++!   

That's why I teach that virtually any normal person of any age - say between 8 and 80 can learn to grade a coin with proper instruction - it's easy!  I also teach that it takes many years of experience and market savvy to learn to place a COMMERCIAL GRADE (VALUE) on a coin.   That's what the TPGS graders claim to do.  Thankfully, I was not hired to put values on coins.

BTW I spoke with a Ex-TPG from a top two service this week.  I feel sorry for their employees.  I could NEVER properly grade the volume of coins they are expected to process a day.  Heck, I have the luxury of taking images, diagnostics, and researching any coin I wish.  We even get Russian metals that I need to translate  in order to ID them for the slab label.  They take more than a few seconds to authenticate & grade.  The major services have folks who do all the attribution work before the coin gets to the grading room.  The graders just grade them - quickly. 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Insider

[scopru]

40 minutes ago, Insider said:

I could NEVER properly grade the volume of coins they are expected to process a day. 

Out of curiosity - what kind of volume per day is the expectation? 

[Insider]

46 minutes ago, scopru said:

Out of curiosity - what kind of volume per day is the expectation? 

I have heard several different #'s and it depends on the tier.  For example, the guys grading "moderns" or SE probably are expected to grade more coins than a vintage coin grader.   I'll bet the true numbers are kept a secret.  I've NEVER been told that I must grade X - coins a day.  What I have heard:

400 to 800+  

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Insider

[scopru]

Either end of the range is a high volume per day.  Thanks for the reply. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/22/2020 at 12:01 PM, VKurtB said:

If we're going to insist that there needs to be a "hard line" between "some wear" and "no wear" (A proposition I do not support, by the way.), then it needs to be okay, NORMAL even, for an AU58 coin to sell for more than even a MS62 of the same type, date, and mintmark. The ONLY other option is to "redefine" the entire range from 55 to 62.

Kurt, maybe there have been some coins for a particular coin type that did see persistent AU58's selling for MORE than MS60/61/62's..... but that's a quirk/function of investor demand based on aesthetics.

Mint State should rank HIGHER than About Uncirculated, grade-wise.  MS60-62 SHOULD price above AU58's --  but maybe not.  If investors prefer the look and appeal of an AU58 (with modest wear and high point friction) over a heavily dinged but NO wear and NO high point friction, I think the TPGs have done their job, the grading standards have been adhered to....it's just that folks want the AU58.

I've been very clear on these pages that given that it's already a 5-figure purchase, whenever I buy a 1907 Saint High Relief I am definitely going with an AU58 over an MS60, 61, or even 62.  Above that, I might prefer MS63's and higher -- but then you are talking about serious increase in $$$ relative to AU58's.

[Just Bob]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:55 AM, VKurtB said:

No one will EVER get me to pay more for a bagged to death MS61 than an attractive AU58, of ANY series.I literally believe the 58 should bring a higher price. 

 

On 10/22/2020 at 11:01 AM, VKurtB said:

If we're going to insist that there needs to be a "hard line" between "some wear" and "no wear" (A proposition I do not support, by the way.), then it needs to be okay, NORMAL even, for an AU58 coin to sell for more than even a MS62 of the same type, date, and mintmark. The ONLY other option is to "redefine" the entire range from 55 to 62.

It appears we may actually agree on this point.

I personally see nothing wrong or odd with this scenario. The nicer coin should bring the nicer price, and the grade should not be adjusted to "fit" the price. I don't think the collector market requires TPGs to manipulate the grade to match the value. I think most educated collectors can figure it out for themselves. The dealer market may require it, (and from the posts that I have read on this forum, apparently they do) but that, in my opinion, is to the detriment of the hobby.

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Just Bob

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:10 PM, Moxie15 said:

This I knew. but as @Insider said 60 is seldom used anymore. I see it as a symptom of what some call greadeflation or maybe a more apropos Liberal grading. 

Might not be any/many coins that are legit MS60's and 61's left to grade....anybody with a known Mint State but heavily dinged probably knows it's not getting a grade worth a nice price if it grades below MS62 or MS63.  So they might not submit it.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:54 PM, Insider said:

I don't have time to discuss the AU-58 grade right now.  I've said/written many times that the folks who wrote the ANA standards (their so called "technical grading") screwed up the grading system forever by combining marks and wear in the circulated grades (choice/typical)!   Then the commercial  graders who buy and sell coins included VALUE into the TPG system to bastardize a coin's condition further and we have the mess we have today + CAC stickers.       

When you have time, please elaborate. 

Are you saying that you don't want coins that never circulated (Mint State) but are (heavily) dinged and might LOOK circulated to NOT grade Mint State ?  You're not saying consider dings and bag marks circulation wear, are you ?

I know things aren't perfect with the "kink" at AU58 vs. Low Mint States.... but if a coin really is Mint State and lots of marks, that's what the low-60's are for.

Anybody seen any AU58+ grades ?

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Just Bob said:

It appears we may actually agree on this point. I personally see nothing wrong or odd with this scenario. The nicer coin should bring the nicer price, and the grade should not be adjusted to "fit" the price. I don't think the collector market requires TPGs to manipulate the grade to match the value. I think most educated collectors can figure it out for themselves. The dealer market may require it, (and from the posts that I have read on this forum, apparently they do) but that, in my opinion, is to the detriment of the hobby.

Do we have a clear persistent pricing anomaly where AU58's are higher for a coin that low-60's Mint State ?  Or do we just have a flattening of price between the two levels for coins which are plentiful across the spectrum ?

Market demand, not grade or coin quality, is causing the pricing anomaly we are discussing.  Some AU 58's (maybe even 55's) look better than MS60/61/62's.  Not sure it's the TPGs fault, it's just the market adjusting.  The TPGs did their jobs....now the public is setting the price, all information now known.

Edited October 24, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Insider]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

When you have time, please elaborate. 

Are you saying that you don't want coins that never circulated (Mint State) but are (heavily) dinged and might LOOK circulated to NOT grade Mint State ?  You're not saying consider dings and bag marks circulation wear, are you ?

I know things aren't perfect with the "kink" at AU58 vs. Low Mint States.... but if a coin really is Mint State and lots of marks, that's what the low-60's are for.

Anybody seen any AU58+ grades ?

Sorry, I don't have time right now.  Basically, when you are taking a measurement of something you cannot combine two different things w/o confusing the measurement.  Is a sight unseen AU-58 a coin with a trace of wear and many marks (ANA AU-Typical) or a coin with a trace of wear and no marks (ANA AU-Choice).   Commercial Coin Grading combines many factors.  The old, obsolete, "true" Technical System used only one measurement for circulated coins.   There were ONLY two (70 was not used) MS grades - Unc and Choice Unc.  It was easy back then.  

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

 There were ONLY two (70 was not used) MS grades - Unc and Choice Unc.  It was easy back then.  

I remember two:  Uncirculated (UNC) and Brilliant Uncirculated (B.U.).   The litany of descriptive adjectives, for which a vaccine has never been developed, came later.  Hence:  exceptional; dazzling eye appeal; sharp devices with prominent high point details; ultra smooth fields shining with brilliance; extraordinary to behold; pristine surfaces glowing with residual mint luster; "mint-fresh" appearance; perfect for high-end collection/registry set; and sure to sit at the pinnacle of your impressive registry set... all of which heirs to the throne of the Sheldon scale are presumably disinclined to assign a decimal sussex to beyond MS-60.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Insider said:

The old, obsolete, "true" Technical System used only one measurement for circulated coins.   There were ONLY two (70 was not used) MS grades - Unc and Choice Unc.  It was easy back then.  

My area of expertise (if you can call it that  ) is Saints and I can pretty easily tell the difference between a pair of "Uncirculateds" if one is a 64 or 65...and the other is a 67.  Very easy to discern the difference.  With numbers, you now have more information.

Before the TPGs, you'd have confusion especially if a pair of coins was actually a 66 vs. 67 and you were a seller or buyer.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2020 at 10:35 PM, VKurtB said:

Sounds like someone is liberal in pouring out the hooch, to me.

[I  liked the president's response.  When asked by a journalist" what tax bracket he was in (presumably to justify a comparatively paltry $750 return) he responded: "It 's none of your business!"  Law Enforcenent is creative too with their reliance on, "We will neither confirm nor deny."

I am advocating for retaining the Sheldon scale but supplementing the whole numbers assigned with decimiled distinctions, e.g., details, to differentiate between hard hooch, or number and depth of bag marks or similar such commonly encountered damage, from gradeflation which is nothing more than unsubstantiated hooey.

[GoldFinger1969]

8 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am advocating for retaining the Sheldon scale but supplementing the whole numbers assigned with decimiled distinctions, e.g., details, to differentiate between hard hooch, or number and depth of bag marks or similar such commonly encountered damage, from gradeflation which is nothing more than unsubstantiated hooey.

Well, considering that for even the more widely-collected and bigger coins (where grading should be easier) you have 1-2 grade discrepancies from time to time, I really think that grading coins 65.3 and 65.7 is a waste.  Like figuring out GDP to the nearest million dollars.

Besides, isn't that what CAC is for, to tell us which coins are A vs. B vs. C ?

I do agree that number and depth of bag marks would be useful to have been quantified in the past.  Maybe NGC and PCGS and the others can tell us for "normal" bag marks how many take a coin from 68 to 67 to 66 to 65 and then down the line (though I doubt this happens).  It's not an exact number, but if you survey a bunch of 64's and 65's and 66's and 67's, you can probably arrive at cutoff or threshold levels where you see the grades cluster around.

I definitely see the dropoff at the MS67 level with the Saints I see relative to MS65 where you can have 3-4 on each side or 10 bag marks and dings.  As soon as you get to that MS66 or even MS66+ level, the fields and devices are alot cleaner.

Edited October 26, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[I  liked the president's response.  When asked by a journalist" what tax bracket he was in (presumably to justify a comparatively paltry $750 return) he responded: "It 's none of your business!"  Law Enforcenent is creative too with their reliance on, "We will neither confirm nor deny."

I am advocating for retaining the Sheldon scale but supplementing the whole numbers assigned with decimiled distinctions, e.g., details, to differentiate between hard hooch, or number and depth of bag marks or similar such commonly encountered damage, from gradeflation which is nothing more than unsubstantiated hooey.

Well, I want it known that as I was buying a bottle of Bailey's for the "spousal unit", I was also picking up some Woodford's Reserve Bourbon for me and a bottle of Jack Daniels Honey for when my kid visits.

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2020 at 2:41 PM, Insider said:

An informed citizen is the key. 

I never thought this would come to matter as much as it has, and it makes me sad, but now it's also important to know "'informed" by whom exactly?"

[Insider]

11 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I never thought this would come to matter as much as it has, and it makes me sad, but now it's also important to know "'informed" by whom exactly?"

Informed by a FREE & UNBIASED NATIONAL PRESS reporting BOTH SIDES of a subject.  By pavement-pounding research, the free press would make sure that what they reported was strictly TRUE and confirmed FACTS and not opinion.