What defines a "Conservative" or "Liberal" coin grader 1 1

[VKurtB]

16 minutes ago, Insider said:

Informed by a FREE & UNBIASED NATIONAL PRESS reporting BOTH SIDES of a subject.  By pavement-pounding research, the free press would make sure that what they reported was strictly TRUE and confirmed FACTS and not opinion.   

No such thing any more, unfortunately.

[Insider]

5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

No such thing any more, unfortunately.

How true.  There is a best selling book : Unfreedom of the Press.  It traces the history of the American Press.  I'll bet that only one or two on this forum has read it.  Me and one (?) more. 

[Henri Charriere]

28 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Well, I want it known that as I was buying a bottle of Bailey's for the "spousal unit", I was also picking up some Woodford's Reserve Bourbon for me and a bottle of Jack Daniels Honey for when my kid visits.

I am totally unfamiliar with these products because no one I know is a drinker. (I did slip into MsSorley's but only wanted to take a look at an original old-time 1854 saloon.)  [One thing I credit the liquor industry with is promoting the liquid measure metric system the sensible way by labeling their merchandise in metrics and relegating their equivalents i.e., pints, quarts, etc. in parentheses.

My idea of a liberal in grading is someone whose coins are viewed thru rose-tinted glasses; there are no distractions worth mentioning.  A conservative uses details with free abandon and he has no agenda beyond providing all the substantive "facts" a collector would need to make an informed decision.  With an experienced grader with a sterling reputation, you would not need a "second opinion."

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:46 AM, Insider said:

BTW I spoke with a Ex-TPG from a top two service this week.  I feel sorry for their employees.  I could NEVER properly grade the volume of coins they are expected to process a day.  Heck, I have the luxury of taking images, diagnostics, and researching any coin I wish.  We even get Russian metals that I need to translate  in order to ID them for the slab label.  They take more than a few seconds to authenticate & grade.  The major services have folks who do all the attribution work before the coin gets to the grading room.  The graders just grade them - quickly. 

I've thought that and said it for years, but I've always had people pooh-pooh that telling me that when you do it for a living it's 2nd nature to be able to grade ANY coin in the series among MANY TYPES in 10-15 seconds or less.

[GoldFinger1969]

8 hours ago, Insider said:

How true.  There is a best selling book : Unfreedom of the Press.  It traces the history of the American Press.  I'll bet that only one or two on this forum has read it.  Me and one (?) more. 

If you can find it, read William F. Buckley Jr.'s The Unmaking Of The Mayor.  

[Insider]

13 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I've thought that and said it for years, but I've always had people pooh-pooh that telling me that when you do it for a living it's 2nd nature to be able to grade ANY coin in the series among MANY TYPES in 10-15 seconds or less.

I think 8 -10 sec. is a good relaxed average for the complete process for one easy type coin such as a Morgan dollar.  All the attribution is done but the grader needs to remove it from the box and flip, then grade it, put the results in the computer, and put it back into the box.   

     

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, Insider said:

I think 8 -10 sec. is a good relaxed average for the complete process for one easy type coin such as a Morgan dollar.  All the attribution is done but the grader needs to remove it from the box and flip, then grade it, put the results in the computer, and put it back into the box.   

     

So in other words, never ever EVER calculate out what you're paying per hour to have your coins graded. You'll risk a coronary.

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, Insider said:

I think 8 -10 sec. is a good relaxed average for the complete process for one easy type coin such as a Morgan dollar.  All the attribution is done but the grader needs to remove it from the box and flip, then grade it, put the results in the computer, and put it back into the box.   

     

So on a  Saint....check the fields, devices, rims, high points, Liberty's face, flowing hair details, finger details, Capitol details, toes details.....Eagles feathers on reverse, beak, wings...all in 10 seconds.

Riiiiight........

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Moxie15]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:26 PM, Insider said:

Informed by a FREE & UNBIASED NATIONAL PRESS reporting BOTH SIDES of a subject.  By pavement-pounding research, the free press would make sure that what they reported was strictly TRUE and confirmed FACTS and not opinion.   

I am unaware of a time in the history of the press, free or otherwise, when all that was reported was facts untainted by opinion. Even history is written as and in someone's opinion. I mean what is true history to a Turk will often be considered lies and fairy tales to an Armenian. We have all heard of Picket's charge, right? Well General Picket did not order it, plan it, participate in it ( he stayed behind the lines observing it happen,) no more than half the men in the charge were under his command, but yet it has been known as Picket's charge  for over a hundred years. The press is always controlled by editors who make certain things are reported to reflect their version of the truth (opinion).

[MarkFeld]

37 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

So on a  Saint....check the fields, devices, rims, high points, Liberty's face, flowing hair details, finger details, Capitol details, toes details.....Eagles feathers on reverse, beak, wings...all in 10 seconds.

Riiiiight........

 

It's not nearly as difficult as you seem to think. And in my opinion, "flowing hair details, finger details, Capitol details, toes details.." rarely make a difference in the grade. It's much more about surface quality and luster.

[Insider]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

So on a  Saint....check the fields, devices, rims, high points, Liberty's face, flowing hair details, finger details, Capitol details, toes details.....Eagles feathers on reverse, beak, wings...all in 10 seconds.

Riiiiight........

 

No!!!!  If you hand a raw Saint to one of the "White Sharks" of numismatics , they know the grade the second they see it.  

[Insider]

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

I am unaware of a time in the history of the press, free or otherwise, when all that was reported was facts untainted by opinion. Even history is written as and in someone's opinion. I mean what is true history to a Turk will often be considered lies and fairy tales to an Armenian. We have all heard of Picket's charge, right? Well General Picket did not order it, plan it, participate in it ( he stayed behind the lines observing it happen,) no more than half the men in the charge were under his command, but yet it has been known as Picket's charge  for over a hundred years. The press is always controlled by editors who make certain things are reported to reflect their version of the truth (opinion).

This:  "I am unaware of a time in the history of the press, free or otherwise, when all that was reported was facts untainted by opinion."

From its beginning, the press in this country has mostly been a group of cut-throat liars, especially when political battles were going on.  The main difference between then and now is they did not claim to be unbiased.  Back then, you knew exactly what side they were on by what they reported, what they hid, and who/what they attacked. 

Hummm, I guess it is exactly the same as today EXCEPT today the Press in this country does not miss anything and is totally  unbiased.     .  

PS Someone can write anything about anything or ignore it.  As for Pickett, there is ONLY ONE TRUE STORY.  As for my missing laptop computer, there is only one true story.  

Edited October 27, 2020 by Insider

[Moxie15]

looks around and slides Insider's laptop under the couch cushion....

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

It's not nearly as difficult as you seem to think. And in my opinion, "flowing hair details, finger details, Capitol details, toes details.." rarely make a difference in the grade. It's much more about surface quality and luster.

I'll defer to your expertise Mark...but it just seems rush-rush to me.  

But if you focus on surface quality and luster...and don't look at my mini-checklist....isn't that how you can then get a coin which is MS66 and upon further looks has key dings in the Liberty Mouth, not-formed toes/fingers, etc. ?

I'm not asking for 2-3 minutes per coin...but what about 30 seconds...maybe 45 if it's a 5-figure coin ?

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

No!!!!  If you hand a raw Saint to one of the "White Sharks" of numismatics , they know the grade the second they see it.  

Are you being serious or facetious ?  Isn't this one of the reasons why CAC came into being...so many "C" coins getting the same grade as coins that should have been graded higher, or themselves getting re-graded higher ?

We have plenty of threads here where people talk about getting cheated out of subsquent upgrades and stuff....clearly, if the follow-up grades are legit, they got it wrong the 1st time and should have spent more time on the coin.

And maybe the experts at the TPGs get it right on Saints (and other coins) TODAY.....but 15 and definitely 30 years ago they clearly didn't have the manpower to handle the surge in demand for grading and had graders who didn't getit right as often as they should.

[MarkFeld]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll defer to your expertise Mark...but it just seems rush-rush to me.  

But if you focus on surface quality and luster...and don't look at my mini-checklist....isn't that how you can then get a coin which is MS66 and upon further looks has key dings in the Liberty Mouth, not-formed toes/fingers, etc. ?

I'm not asking for 2-3 minutes per coin...but what about 30 seconds...maybe 45 if it's a 5-figure coin ?

Non-formed toes/fingers aren’t going to account for differences in grade very often. Your emphasizing strike too much.

With respect to “rush- rush”, try picking up a coin and examining each side for 10 seconds. How rushed does that feel? If your answer is more than a little bit, try it a few more times with a few other coins. Then look at the same coins for as long as you want and see how much, if at all, your grade opinions change.

I’m not saying that some coins don’t require 30 seconds or more. But a great many don’t.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

30 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I’m not saying that some coins don’t require 30 seconds or more. But a great many don’t.

Understood.....then in your opinion, what about these coins that myseriously get re-graded up 2 notches ?  Is that just a case of an inexperienced grader (or graders) ?  Or a coin that needed more time by all the graders ?

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Understood.....then in your opinion, what about these coins that myseriously get re-graded up 2 notches ?  Is that just a case of an inexperienced grader (or graders) ?  Or a coin that needed more time by all the graders ?

There are a number of possibilities. It might have been tight grading the first time, loose grading the second time or a little bit of each. Maybe additional time spent evaluating the coins would have resulted in a different grade, but perhaps not. I doubt that inexperienced graders is the explanation, however.

[Insider]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are you being serious or facetious ?  Isn't this one of the reasons why CAC came into being...so many "C" coins getting the same grade as coins that should have been graded higher, or themselves getting re-graded higher ?

We have plenty of threads here where people talk about getting cheated out of subsquent upgrades and stuff....clearly, if the follow-up grades are legit, they got it wrong the 1st time and should have spent more time on the coin.

And maybe the experts at the TPGs get it right on Saints (and other coins) TODAY.....but 15 and definitely 30 years ago they clearly didn't have the manpower to handle the surge in demand for grading and had graders who didn't getit right as often as they should.

I'll guarantee you that there are folks I shall not need to name that could tell you the grade of your Saint with their naked eyes the second you handed it to them and they looked at it.  So, I'm being serious.  What most "chat room" nerds (I'm one) or "advanced" collectors fail to understand is that on a scale of 1-10 we would possibly be ranked from 1-6.  Those dealers/professional numismatists I did not name are ranked either 9 or 10.    

Furthermore all TPG's are human and grading is subjective.  Therefore, ANYONE (even a chat room nerd) will be able to find a slabbed coin that is completely "off."  Stuff happens.  "Liners" and market fluctuations may contribute to disagreements with the TPGS grade. 

I'm not a commercial grader so IMHO modern professional grading mostly sucks.  That's because they are attempting to put a commercial value on a coin rather than concentrating on the coin's actual condition.  Nevertheless, in the large picture, everything works.  CAC is a business.  They have the easiest job in the world.  They look at previously graded coins and choose those they like.  

I don't have any idea what you are writing about that you think went on 15 to 30 years ago at the TPGS..

[Insider]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll defer to your expertise Mark...but it just seems rush-rush to me.  

But if you focus on surface quality and luster...and don't look at my mini-checklist....isn't that how you can then get a coin which is MS66 and upon further looks has key dings in the Liberty Mouth, not-formed toes/fingers, etc. ?

I'm not asking for 2-3 minutes per coin...but what about 30 seconds...maybe 45 if it's a 5-figure coin ?

What you are doing when you grade a coin is called "micro-grading."  It is frowned upon by those who are in charge of a grading room.  I am also a micro-grader.  I've trained my eye to see "cabinet friction" ,defects, chemical or mechanical alterations, and repairs.  What I find gets passed on in the computer notes.  

[GoldFinger1969]

5 minutes ago, Insider said:

I don't have any idea what you are writing about that you think went on 15 to 30 years ago at the TPGS..

My readings and discussions with veterans of that time (I wasn't active back then) was that during the bubble years of 1989-91 and again in the early-2000's.....grading got lax, volume surges overwhelmed the TPGs....lots of misgraded coins.

[Insider]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

My readings and discussions with veterans of that time (I wasn't active back then) was that during the bubble years of 1989-91 and again in the early-2000's.....grading got lax, volume surges overwhelmed the TPGs....lots of misgraded coins.

I thought that's the way it has always been.  It would be interesting to know the exact year "moderns" began to be graded by the big two.  

[GoldFinger1969]

2 minutes ago, Insider said:

I thought that's the way it has always been.  It would be interesting to know the exact year "moderns" began to be graded by the big two.  

Should be easy to find out, just see when coins from 1986, 1987, and 1988 got put into slabs, right ?

[VKurtB]

20 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll defer to your expertise Mark...but it just seems rush-rush to me. 

EVERYTHING about modern TPGS grading IS "rush-rush", and nobody has ever pretended otherwise, have they?

[MarkFeld]

21 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

EVERYTHING about modern TPGS grading IS "rush-rush", and nobody has ever pretended otherwise, have they?

If that’s the case, things were different when I graded at NGC (1991-1998). Yes, the volume of submissions was much smaller back then, but so was the number of graders. And we weren’t grading moderns at that time.

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, MarkFeld said:

If that’s the case, things were different when I graded at NGC (1991-1998). Yes, the volume of submissions was much smaller back then, but so was the number of graders. And we weren’t grading moderns at that time.

I don't doubt they're different now for a second. At the ANA course I took (Brian Silliman's), it was represented to me that a typical coin gets looked at for 3-10 seconds at a modern TPGS. Moderns at the low end of that range. Only variety attribution takes longer, and you pay extra for that.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

At the ANA course I took (Brian Silliman's), it was represented to me that a typical coin gets looked at for 3-10 seconds at a modern TPGS. Moderns at the low end of that range. Only variety attribution takes longer, and you pay extra for that.

Unreal......3-10 seconds......

[VKurtB]

37 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Unreal......3-10 seconds......

Yes, when they slow down.

[Cat Bath]

99% of saints take about 1/2 second.

Nope...Nope...Nope...Nope...Nope...…………...

I might have to flip over one out of 100

[GoldFinger1969]

4 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

99% of saints take about 1/2 second.  Nope...Nope...Nope...Nope...Nope...…………... I might have to flip over one out of 100

I've gotten better on Saints as my research and ownership and studies have increased.  But I can't ever envision spending only seconds to judge the coin.  I would feel I rushed things, like recommending a stock or bond based on looking at the financials for 30 seconds only.