Intermediate Quiz: What caused these marks? 1 1

[Insider]

This is a Standing Liberty quarter.  The marks you see are commonly found on silver coins.  What do you think caused them. 

 

 

For those who need to see the entire coin:

 

[bsshog40]

That entire coin shot is a sure giveaway. LMAO  Might they be roller marks? 

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, Insider said:

This is a Standing Liberty quarter.  The marks you see are commonly found on silver coins.  What do you think caused them. 

 

 

For those who need to see the entire coin:

 

Oh yes, very helpful. 

[RWB]

C'm on folks...this one is easy..... The answer is obvious: silverfish tracks (Lepisma saccharina). Look very closely and you can see their tiny foot prints --- see how some feet have shoes of different sizes?  (PS: The full obverse photo was a key giveaway...)

:)

[Zebo]

6 minutes ago, RWB said:

C'm on folks...this one is easy..... The answer is obvious: silverfish tracks (Lepisma saccharina). Look very closely and you can see their tiny foot prints --- see how some feet have shoes of different sizes?  (PS: The full obverse photo was a key giveaway...)

Wasn't this already answered by bs shot? Roller marks or feeder marks - same thing, right?

[Insider]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Wasn't this already answered by bs shot? Roller marks or feeder marks - same thing, right?

NO.  Not even close.

Would someone care to describe what they see?

 

[bsshog40]

I'm not too sure what we're suppose to be looking at. The streaks? The ridges?

[Insider]

1. Before trying to ID the cause of anything you see on a coin a person needs to be able to describe it in words that someone who cannot see the coin will understand and imagine what it looks like.
   
   Great example so far: Parallel marks. What else? Are they wide/narrow, short/long, smooth/rough, jagged, raised, deep/shallow, colorful, etc.

[Moxie15]

the lines are parallel, relatively long and are on top of the fields and devises. They are fairly evenly spaced and a uniform depth.

They appear to be caused by a cloth of fiber matrix wheel that was stationary and powered.

I think they were caused by a wheel in a counting or rolling machine that was adjusted to too tight a tolerance.

[Insider]

37 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

the lines are parallel, relatively long and are on top of the fields and devises. They are fairly evenly spaced and a uniform depth.

They appear to be caused by a cloth of fiber matrix wheel that was stationary and powered.

I think they were caused by a wheel in a counting or rolling machine that was adjusted to too tight a tolerance.

Good post.

1. Parallel

2. Relatively long

3. INTO the surface with uniform depth

4. Rough interior

What are some of the things that can happen to a coin to produce these characteristics? Four come quickly to mind.  There may be others if I think about it.  Keep it simple because it is.

[Just Bob]

Things that might cause evenly spaced grooves on a small area of a coin: reeding on the edge of a large coin, teeth on the jaws of a pair of pliers, the threads of a screw, bristles of a wire brush, strands of braided wire, the edge of a damaged knife/scraper, possibly sandpaper or steel wool. 

[Henri Charriere]

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to direct this question to VKurtB?

What enquiring minds would like to know is why master engravers had no problem mastering the curves in an S but balked at negotiating the curve in U choosing to render it as a V.

[Moxie15]

8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to direct this question to VKurtB?

What enquiring minds would like to know is why master engravers had no problem mastering the curves in an S but balked at negotiating the curve in U choosing to render it as a V.

because the lower portion of the inside of the U tends to break and crumble more than the V

That is what I was told by a sculptor at The Saint Gaudens  National Historic Site about 50 years ago ( he also let take a whack at the back of a bass relief he was working on. A cool thing to a nine year old.)

[VKurtB]

I'll take on faith that all these attributes are correct, but they are not all something I can personally vouch for from this photo:

1. Parallel

2. Relatively long

3. INTO the surface with uniform depth

4. Rough interior

These four taken together would argue for the coin having been scrubbed by some brush or abrasive (other than my personality).

[physics-fan3.14]

11 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to direct this question to VKurtB?

What enquiring minds would like to know is why master engravers had no problem mastering the curves in an S but balked at negotiating the curve in U choosing to render it as a V.

If the engraver was trying to make something look classical, they would use a V in the inscription instead of the U. This is because in Latin, they did not have a symbol for U - they used the V symbol. 

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

If the engraver was trying to make something look classical, they would use a V in the inscription instead of the U. This is because in Latin, they did not have a symbol for U - they used the V symbol. 

Yes, this. Many old banks have the "SO AND SO TRVST BANK" on their marble facades. I say "marble" because I wouldn't want to take it for granite.

[RWB]

Marbleous reply. Is that set in concrete?

Edited September 4, 2020 by RWB

[Insider]

6 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I'll take on faith that all these attributes are correct, but they are not all something I can personally vouch for from this photo:

1. Parallel

2. Relatively long

3. INTO the surface with uniform depth

4. Rough interior

These four taken together would argue for the coin having been scrubbed by some brush or abrasive (other than my personality).

What are the things that could commonly cause this mark on a coin?

1. PMD

2.

3.

4.

[VKurtB]

Commonly? Only that. I feel uneasy making blanket statements due to people posting just to mess with people. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

5 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

If the engraver was trying to make something look classical, they would use a V in the inscription instead of the U. This is because in Latin, they did not have a symbol for U - they used the V symbol. 

[Aside:  There is no letter J in the Hebrew-Aramaic but that didn't stop all the king's men from rendering God's unique name as Jehovah, Psalm 83:18 in the King James Version, 1611.]  Now, if negotiating curves for engravers -- and presumably stonemasons was so difficult, why would they "chisel" a risky MDCCCCXX into a granite cornerstone, when MCMXX would have been  so much easier?  Anyone know, or care to hazard a guess?

[Henri Charriere]

3 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Commonly? Only that. I feel uneasy making blanket statements due to people posting just to mess with people. 

 

8 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Commonly? Only that. I feel uneasy making blanket statements due to people posting just to mess with people. 

Go ahead, Sir.  I am eminently unqualified to make a statement on this, much less an all-encompassing blanket one.

[Insider]

5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Commonly? Only that. I feel uneasy making blanket statements due to people posting just to mess with people. 

Yes, very commonly!   One of the things I mentioned (PMD) is on 20% -30% of the coins I see each day. 

You know what, I'm reaching the end of my attempt to revive this place.  Members (less than 2 dozen active?) wish to comment OFF SUBJECT for what ever the reason.  Insecurity?  Anyway, I'm not going to give up just yet.  Now, rather than bla, bla, bla does anyone care to post the other POSSIBLE things these marks could be.  

[Henri Charriere]

While we wait for Insider to pounce from the sidelines, this being only the start of a long Federal holiday weekend, I will go on the record as saying if a DNA match is made linking this inadvertent damage to any of the progeny of Siegfried and Roy's or Joe Exotic's cats, I will take the rap and pay all costs. Unconditionally.

[VKurtB]

37 minutes ago, Insider said:

One of the things I mentioned (PMD) is on 20% -30% of the coins I see each day. 

Only that few? You must not spend much time on our Newbie forum. 

[Moxie15]

as you listed PMD as one cause I am going to say

1, PMD

2. A rough spot on a draw out roller that sizes the metal to the final thickness (if it was an earlier stage roller the lines would be flattened out by the latter rollers)

3. the collar did not fully recede before the ejector mechanism pushed the coin out of the striking position so the coin slid across it

4. the feeder finger slid across the top of the planchet

5. a rough spot on the riddler (they are riddled somewhere along the line, aren't they?)

[Insider]

Don't over think this.  What could cause a mark into the surface of a struck coin.   Never mind.

This mark could be:

1. PMD. 

2. A strike thru

3. A planchet flaw

4. Corrosion

5. Other...

Answer Tuesday.  Happy Holiday.

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Only that few? You must not spend much time on our Newbie forum. 

Why don't you take a guess at the cause of the marks?  The answer is on the list above.   

[Just Bob]

2 hours ago, Insider said:

Don't over think this.  What could cause a mark into the surface of a struck coin.   Never mind.

This mark could be:

1. PMD.     This would be my first guess. The fact that the raised areas seem to be disturbed where the lines cross them makes me think they are scratches. What damaged it, I don't know.

2. A strike thru.    The way the lines fade out on both ends makes me think this is unlikely.

3. A planchet flaw.  I considered this, but I don't see how this flaw could survive the pressure of striking, unless it was really deep to start with. Plus, since you said this was common, I will say no to this one.

4. Corrosion.    I don't think so. 

5. Other... ?

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

For those of you officially on vacation (because that sounds a whole lot sexier than admitting Insider, once again, has you secretly stumped dead in your tracks) take consolation in the fact that there is right now on the web as we speak a most compelling offering, a juxtaposition as it were, of two LSQs aligned with you the collector in syzgy representing what may very well be the worst and best examples of this classic coin.

One, an Etsy number, is described accurately as an "Old and Rare Denver Mint Mark Dateless U.S. Standing Liberty Quarter" (emphasis mine) as offered by "Granny'sOldCoins" at the presumed bargain basement price of only $5,000.00.  To stress the urgency of the matter, a time-glass is depicted along with the note this is a "rare find" with "only one of these in stock," to be liberally interpreted to mean, this is no time to exercise due diligence.   Fortunately, the wear on this coin is so pronounced any evidence of abrasions, lacerations, punctures or other distinctive marks were not able to survive an obliteration so complete it is without equal.  I peg the Full Market [Melt] Value of this relic conservatively at no more than $4.89, if that.

The other is the finest example of a 1917-P Type 1 SLQ PCGS MS-65 Full Head I have ever laid eyes on and is a wonder to behold, at $1,595.  To contemplate scrutiny of this gem for any distinctive marks would be an unforgiveable faux pas in the eyes of any collector visiting this site so I have refrained from doing so.

I thank Insider for his graciousness in tolerating my unwarranted intrusions on his thread and wish all combatants the best of luck in determining the ultimate source of those vexing diagnostic markers. (One final parting shot: whomsoever caused to be affixed to this coin that chop-mark resembling a capital letter "B," or mockful dollar sign ($) within the striations of the field under discussion ought to be drawn-and-quartered.)

[Cat Bath]

My wild guess is roll crimping.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Cat Bath