Question about 1921 saint die
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101 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)
On 11/12/2020 at 2:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You piqued my interest, Cat, so I just looked up some 1920's in HA.

I see plenty of MS-64's going for about $3,500 - $4,500.  Add in CAC....the price jumps to the mid-$5's.

A "+" seems more stronger [snip] where the price takes an atmospheric jump...$6,500 - $7,500.

OLD THREAD ALERT.................Price update.

1920 in MS64+   $25,000

I suspected this would be one to watch.

Sad part is I had three 1920 MS64+CAC in my hand and put 2 back in early 2020 for $4,300 each.

Edited by Cat Bath
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On 5/18/2022 at 2:23 AM, Cat Bath said:

OLD THREAD ALERT.................Price update.  1920 in MS64+   $25,000  I suspected this would be one to watch.

Sad part is I had three 1920 MS64+CAC in my hand and put 2 back in early 2020 for $4,300 each.

A 1920 MS64+ CAC went for $23,400 a few weeks ago.  Another one without CAC sold for $18,000 a few months ago.

MS64's were going for about $4,000 give-or-take the last 2 years.  20-35% more for CAC.

Has this coin gone up a bunch in recent months ?  I'd be suprised if it had, unless a couple of well-heeled buyers needed condition rarities of the coin.

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Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many.  Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above.

Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? 
 

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On 5/18/2022 at 6:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many.  Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above.

Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? 
 

I don’t think it’s at all spurious. It makes sense that a “+” sells for an especially large premium when there’s a substantial value difference between grades. Look at what a 64 and a 65 are each worth. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2022 at 7:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many.  Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above.

Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? 
 

Yep...A bunch of them.

You can almost predict which ones when you look at the grade distribution.

I have the pop. report & price guide almost memorized.

I also predicted the 1912 would be higher than it is now. We shall see. (It did double in MS64+ also)

 

Edited by Cat Bath
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On 5/18/2022 at 9:22 PM, MarkFeld said:

I don’t think it’s at all spurious. It makes sense that a “+” sells for an especially large premium when there’s a substantial value difference between grades. Look at what a 64 and a 65 are each worth. 

Let me elaborate further.

While I understand that the population drops off tremendously between 64 and 65 and thus the 64+ is worth a nice jump from 64....it's just that to grade a coin that "fine" seems very difficult considering that many times the graders are off by 1 or even 2 grades.

Now, in the case of the 1920 there are very few in the higher grades so maybe it's easy to tell a 64+ from a 64.  It just struck me as a bit unusual and stuck out with other condition rarities where you need to go up 1 whole grade to see the inflection.

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Posted (edited)

Generally speaking, the line between grades is sort-of OK between the last 2 or 3 columns of a particular saint.

That said, grading on the "fab-5" and some other $$$$ coins is kind-of a dart throw.

There are "trends" amongst a particular date/mint mark/major variety lower down the scale.

I absolutely believe I can tell what a MS64+ 1920 is suppose to look like and where the line is between A, B & C.  

Edited by Cat Bath
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On 5/19/2022 at 1:31 AM, Cat Bath said:

I absolutely believe I can tell what a MS64+ 1920 is suppose to look like and where the line is between A, B & C.  

I wouldn't doubt you, CB.  I just know I've read lots of articles where a bunch of "experts" were showed a coin (maybe it was a Saint, I can't remember) and the grades were ALL OVER the place.

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Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status?

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On 5/27/2022 at 12:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status?

As long as it is handled correctly, there is no limit. 

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On 5/27/2022 at 1:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status?

Well...since we don't really care about that for modern coins...and since we can't really tell with classics like pre-1933 gold if they were ever in a pocket, handled with human fingers, in a velvet pouch, etc....I'm not sure it's that critical.

It's a good question, as Mint State implies you can get dinged or gouged so long as you never circulated....but if you have a pristine, near-flawless MS coin and then you HANDLE IT....it goes to AU...even though it still may look light-years better than the MS coin.

It's one of the glitches in the coin rading system we have to live with.  Still better than pre-1986 without TPGs, IMO, by far.

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On 5/27/2022 at 1:11 PM, VKurtB said:

As long as it is handled correctly, there is no limit. 

But I would assume that human hands -- unprotected -- would transmit dirt/oils/residue to the coin and start to degrade luster, finish, etc.

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On 5/27/2022 at 12:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But I would assume that human hands -- unprotected -- would transmit dirt/oils/residue to the coin and start to degrade luster, finish, etc.

Not necessarily. As has been stated often here, even NGC graders use human hands, without gloves. Why? A shortage of monkey hands, I suppose. 

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Well, already we have more than one opinion. And that's why grading is so subjective. Throw in toning, and subconsciously one's opinion changes for better or worse.

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On 11/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I've rarely seen it said that CAC stickers didn't belong,

I've read a 'few' comments from ATS where some challenged the awarding of the CAC sticker to coins that appeared not to warrant it.

On 11/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

more so that a coin deserved one and didn't get it.

There's some folks ATS that really get hyped up when they don't get the coveted 'bean'.  CAC has been here since 2007 and, whether I like it or not, doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

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On 5/27/2022 at 1:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status?

As many as a 2nd rate linebacker gets touches on a QB....?

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On 5/27/2022 at 4:25 PM, RWB said:

As many as a 2nd rate linebacker gets touches on a QB....?

I do not want to discourage others from responding, but I believe this is a question that is unanswerable.

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On 5/27/2022 at 4:58 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not want to discourage others from responding, but I believe this is a question that is unanswerable.

No, it’s not. Changing hands is not what makes a coin cease to be mint state. Damage, whether “wear” (58 and down) or “coin to coin hits” (60-69) does. Changing hands among 200 knowledgeable numismatists does less to lower a coin’s grade than being owned by a single buffoon. 

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On 5/28/2022 at 7:20 PM, VKurtB said:

No, it’s not. Changing hands is not what makes a coin cease to be mint state. Damage, whether “wear” (58 and down) or “coin to coin hits” (60-69) does. Changing hands among 200 knowledgeable numismatists does less to lower a coin’s grade than being owned by a single buffoon. 

As my dear old mom used to say, Yalanda dil, or, Isn't that so! xD

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2022 at 1:32 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I've read a 'few' comments from ATS where some challenged the awarding of the CAC sticker to coins that appeared not to warrant it.  There's some folks ATS that really get hyped up when they don't get the coveted 'bean'.  CAC has been here since 2007 and, whether I like it or not, doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

There will be disagreements.

Most of those disputes on gold/Saints or small denomination coins ?  The one "discrepancy" that folks say about JA/CAC is that he is much tougher on gold/Saints than other coins.  Of course, the coins are bigger, too.

Not sure if it still is true, but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard.:S

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/29/2022 at 10:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard

That's why I never sent mine in.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2022 at 9:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Most of those disputes on gold/Saints or small denomination coins ?  The one "discrepancy" that folks say about JA/CAC is that he is much tougher on gold/Saints than other coins.  Of course, the coins are bigger, too.

Not sure if it still is true, but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard.:S

Unless I misread it, CAC has stickered more than 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I bet some of those are Wells Fargo examples, even if no longer designated as such.

Edited to add: The link below from the Heritage auction archives, pulls up multiple CAC examples.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=51+404+790+231&Ntt=1908+wells+fargo+cac&ic4=SortBy-071515

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MarkFeld
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On 5/29/2022 at 2:21 PM, MarkFeld said:

Did you bother to check the CAC population report? Unless I misread it, CAC has stickered more than 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I feel a bit mean saying this, but I think your comment was irresponsible. You could have easily checked the report, yourself, rather than spreading hearsay. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Militating in @GoldFinger1969's favor, he qualified his comment by stating, "Not sure if it still is true,..."  Unless one could narrow that window definitively, no faux pas was committed. In the general scheme of things, his credibility is sound and his reputation precedes him. I would give him the benefit of the doubt.  🐓 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2022 at 1:41 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Militating in @GoldFinger1969's favor, he qualified his comment by stating, "Not sure if it still is true,..."  Unless one could narrow that window definitively, no faux pas was committed. In the general scheme of things, his credibility is sound and his reputation precedes him. I would give him the benefit of the doubt.  🐓 

Please see my subsequent edit to that post. It took just a few minutes to determine that even if it was true - which is extremely doubtful - it no longer is. A quick check of the Heritage auction archives brought up multiple CAC examples.

Edited by MarkFeld
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On 5/29/2022 at 2:54 PM, MarkFeld said:

I wouldn’t expect the coin to sticker.

Kind of thought so.  It's been sitting in my desk for a while.  Thanks very much for looking.  It is a Wells Fargo 65.  Maybe one day.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2022 at 2:01 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@MarkFeld

[If it is okay with you, I am going to take credit for prompting that lightning-fast edit.] 😉 

It’s not OK with me, because I made the edit before I saw your post. I’d already decided that my original post was too harsh. And I apologize to @GoldFinger1969 for being overly harsh.

Edited by MarkFeld
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