Question about 1921 saint die
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101 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you know someone submitted their coin 28 times trying to get an upgrade ?  I'm confused.....thx.

I just checked RWB's Saint DE book.  He has alot of commentary on the 1920's, 1st coin minted after they stopped striking in 1916 for WW I.  Using the (dated) price guide in the book, the 1920 in MS65 sells for $90,000 or so from 2012-15 but an MS-63 was only about $2,000 or so, give-or-take.  So there's probably a big spike to MS-64 esp. with a "+" or CAC.

I had a CAC once, but a thorough gargle took care of it. I CACed it right up like a hairball. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I’ve never cared what John Albanese might think about much of anything. I only care about two opinions - the seller’s and mine, end of list. Perhaps NGC as a neutral third party occasionally, but I never give them a dispositive position even then. 

Edited by VKurtB
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48 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

The other odd thing about saint collectors is that we don't really collect die varieties.  There's a huge difference between the 08 NM type1 and the Type2 but there isn't even a notation on the insert. Some dealers try to get more from double/triple dies or RPMs but It doesn't seem we are all that interested.

When dealing with a more expensive coin like a Saint, it was tough enough cost-wise just to buy some of the years and mintmarks, let alone die varieties.

And I think until Roger's magnus opus there was no detailed research on the die varieties (I don't know of any myself but maybe there was in the numismatic journals).  Don't recall any die variety talk in any other books or on message boards.

But now we have people talking and discussing and looking for some of these die varieties and other differentiators (i.e., long vs. short rays). (thumbsu

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38 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I had a CAC once, but a thorough gargle took care of it. I CACed it right up like a hairball. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I’ve never cared what John Albanese might think about much of anything. I only care about two opinions - the seller’s and mine, end of list. Perhaps NGC as a neutral third party occasionally, but I never give them a dispositive position even then. 

I see that alot from the veterans with decades of experience so I know where you are coming from.  As someone not quite a hardcore numismatist, I go with the flow at times. xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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10 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How do you know someone submitted their coin 28 times trying to get an upgrade ?  I'm confused.....thx.

I just checked RWB's Saint DE book.  He has alot of commentary on the 1920's, 1st coin minted after they stopped striking in 1916 for WW I.  Using the (dated) price guide in the book, the 1920 in MS65 sells for $90,000 or so from 2012-15 but an MS-63 was only about $2,000 or so, give-or-take.  So there's probably a big spike to MS-64 esp. with a "+" or CAC.

There were 28 TrueViews of the same coin with different cert numbers.

So far as the 20 goes, it's one of those rare times when you can have a nicer coin than Hansen or Simpson. Since there are over 50 MS64+ coins and not super expensive, you can just wait like a vulture.

The + or the bean does double the price. There was very nice Kutasi MS64 CAC for sale recently that I almost bid on.

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31 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

 Not to put too fine a point on it, but I’ve never cared what John Albanese might think about much of anything.

I'd like to have a private conversation with the finalizer ATS.

I suspect Brett has turned him into a bean farmer.

I had no use for CAC either until recently, now it seems you have to get the OK from NJ for an upgrade.

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1 hour ago, Cat Bath said:

So far as the 20 goes, it's one of those rare times when you can have a nicer coin than Hansen or Simpson. Since there are over 50 MS64+ coins and not super expensive, you can just wait like a vulture. The + or the bean does double the price. There was very nice Kutasi MS64 CAC for sale recently that I almost bid on.

You piqued my interest, Cat, so I just looked up some 1920's in HA.

I see plenty of MS-64's going for about $3,500 - $4,500.  Add in CAC....the price jumps to the mid-$5's.

A "+" seems more stronger to the coveted MS-65 grade where the price takes an atmospheric jump...$6,500 - $7,500.

Apparently, no coins above MS-65 so given the few at that level, I'm surprised the price isn't even higher than the $50-$125K one would go for depending on how good it looks.

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8 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I'd like to have a private conversation with the finalizer ATS.

I suspect Brett has turned him into a bean farmer.

I had no use for CAC either until recently, now it seems you have to get the OK from NJ for an upgrade.

I wouldn’t know. Laura and I never cross paths, and I like it that way. 

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10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I’ve never cared what John Albanese might think about much of anything. I only care about two opinions - the seller’s and mine, end of list.

You're one tough cookie.  On the other hand, from the CAC's I've viewed on-line, Mr. Albanese is the one with the quirky niche in this hobby.  He's thrown stickers on things that look as though their owners couldn't get to the Pepto Bismol in time.

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43 minutes ago, jtryka said:

The 1920 is an interesting one, as it is plentiful, but not so much in higher grades.  They used to see a big jump in price at the MS-63 level, but with grade inflation over time that break is now at the MS-64 level. 

Why do you say there used to be a big jump at the MS-63 level ?  The price guide in Roger's book seems to confirm the quantum leap at the MS-65 level and the start of a rise at MS-64.

The guide has prices for MS-63 starting in 1985 using the HA database.

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2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

You're one tough cookie.  On the other hand, from the CAC's I've viewed on-line, Mr. Albanese is the one with the quirky niche in this hobby.  He's thrown stickers on things that look as though their owners couldn't get to the Pepto Bismol in time.

Are you talking about toned coins ?  I've rarely seen it said that CAC stickers didn't belong, more so that a coin deserved one and didn't get it.

I get why some veterans and oldtimers might not like the CAC function or even the TPGs....but that doesn't mean we should denigrate their work, even if we/you do disagree with it.  For sure, state your objections....disagree....talk about the negative things you feel happen to our hobby because of it/them.

But I find too often that folks make broad generalizations, personal attacks, or unsubstantiated charges against CAC and/or TPGs and this detracts from the person's arguments (not saying you, just in general).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are you talking about toned coins ?  I've rarely it said that CAC stickers didn't belong, more so that a coin deserved one and didn't get it.

I get why some veterans and oldtimers might not like the CAC function or even the TPGs....but that doesn't mean we should denigrate their work, even if we/you do disagree with it.  For sure, state your objections....disagree....talk about the negative things you feel happen to our hobby because of it/them.

But I find too often that folks make broad generalizations, personal attacks, or unsubstantiated charges against CAC and/or TPGs and this detracts from the person's arguments (not saying you, just in general).

I object to the entire concept of a sticker. We need, in a few cases, a third party opinion. But fourth? Where does it end?

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25 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I object to the entire concept of a sticker. We need, in a few cases, a third party opinion. But fourth? Where does it end?

TPG is one opinion, CAC is second.  Not sure where 3rd and 4th are coming from, Kurt.

Hey...we don't NEED a CAC bean.  Even someone who is NOT an expert grader like myself doesn't need it.  But there are times when, if you don't mind paying the additional $$$ for a CAC, that it pays to confirm the underlying grade AND be even more assured that the coin (and slab) aren't counterfeit.  Especially on higher-cost coins.

That said...some of the games and crack-out stuff going on borders on the ridiculous.  I read somewhere (maybe I posted it here or elsewhere, I forget) that someone wanted a 1927-D Saint with a CAC sticker so he cracked-out his 1927-D...got a LOWER grade (MS-66 or MS-65+ to MS-65, I think) and got the CAC bean.

So we've reached the point now where folks are re-submitting hoping for a LOWER grade !!  Or more accurately, they've already been assured it will grade lower !! xD 

Ridiculous......:mad:

 

 

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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8 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are you talking about toned coins ?  I've rarely seen it said that CAC stickers didn't belong, more so that a coin deserved one and didn't get it.

I get why some veterans and oldtimers might not like the CAC function or even the TPGs....but that doesn't mean we should denigrate their work, even if we/you do disagree with it.  For sure, state your objections....disagree....talk about the negative things you feel happen to our hobby because of it/them.

But I find too often that folks make broad generalizations, personal attacks, or unsubstantiated charges against CAC and/or TPGs and this detracts from the person's arguments (not saying you, just in general).

The buyuscoins.com website which bills itself The Collector's Source For The Finest Collectibles, has a fine selection of CAC-stickered slabs.

The photography I beli

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22 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you get conked on the head by a robber mid-sentence ?  Should I call the police ? xD

The claim by MarkFeld that he is not aware of any heavy-handedness in Moderation is without foundation.  Every one of my replies is routed, pored over and censored, or restored.  There is constant interference. Nothing wrong with my phone. I simply give up -- and that's what happened. I will move on from here, for now.  [I felt compelled to reply to you because I appreciate your measured approach on things.]

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18 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

TPG is one opinion, CAC is second.  Not sure where 3rd and 4th are coming from, Kurt.

Hey...we don't NEED a CAC bean.  Even someone who is NOT an expert grader like myself doesn't need it.  But there are times when, if you don't mind paying the additional $$$ for a CAC, that it pays to confirm the underlying grade AND be even more assured that the coin (and slab) aren't counterfeit.  Especially on higher-cost coins.

That said...some of the games and crack-out stuff going on borders on the ridiculous.  I read somewhere (maybe I posted it here or elsewhere, I forget) that someone wanted a 1927-D Saint with a CAC sticker so he cracked-out his 1927-D...got a LOWER grade (MS-66 or MS-65+ to MS-65, I think) and got the CAC bean.

So we've reached the point now where folks are re-submitting hoping for a LOWER grade !!  Or more accurately, they've already been assured it will grade lower !! xD 

Ridiculous......:mad:

 

 

 

No, the seller is one, and the buyer is two. Then the TPGS is three. See what I did there? CAC or QC check, or Eagle Eye, or all those, are FOUTH (and up) opinions. By the time a nearly illiterate “broad” from New Jersey weighs in, it’s beyond ridiculous.

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13 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Every one of my replies is routed, pored over and censored, or restored.

Nah Quintus, thass jus' me. :roflmao:

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13 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Nah Quintus, thass jus' me. :roflmao:

I dare not say anything; her eyes are boring right thru the back of my head. (Hey, at least you found out pi-guy is simply ignoring you.  No agenda whatsoever.  Now, who does the President-elect have to see to get his daily intelligence briefings?)

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I dare not say anything; her eyes are boring right thru the back of my head. (Hey, at least you found out pi-guy is simply ignoring you.  No agenda whatsoever.  Now, who does the President-elect have to see to get his daily intelligence briefings?)

Doesn't the person giving the briefings need to BE intelligent? Finding that might prove to be the limiting factor, given the track record of our national intelligence services. He's probably better off just listening to Jill.

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Back to the 1920 and 1921 Saints.....I don't know why Bob Simpson is selling part of his collection but so far he doesn't seem to be offering many Saints, certainly not his high-ends that I have read about.

BTW...interesting factoid about BS....he sold his energy company to ExxonMobil in 2010.  It was a HORRIBLE purchase for XOM, one that reverberates to this day.  They paid $40 billion for the company when they should have paid about $10 billion as it turned out (or passed on it as I doubt XTO would have agreed to a takeunder).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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5 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Back to the 1920 and 1921 Saints.....I don't know why Bob Simpson is selling part of his collection but so far he doesn't seem to be offering many Saints, certainly not his high-ends that I have read about.

At 10:40 he says he's keeping his saints.

 

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On 11/10/2020 at 5:15 PM, Coinbuf said:

Sorry just now saw your reply.  The short version is that members of the board ats were using coinfacts to point out the ridiculous number of coins that were getting upgrades and upgrades on upgrades within months and even weeks.  The upshot of that was some dealers were furious because their high dollar cash cow customers were finding out about all these fresh upgrades and complaining about paying premium prices.  It is the opinion of many ats that a few of the favored dealers complained to PCGS and overnight suddenly all but the most recent images were removed from the site so that it is much harder now to id those coins that are getting constantly upgraded.   Now as new images are added for a coin/date/mm old ones are dropped off so you can only see a handful of coins for each even tho there are hundreds even thousands of images taken by PCGS which now only PCGS has access to.

Not to mention obvious conflicts of interest, but I will anyway. The favored dealers were also on their board of experts and most of us have short memories but I certainly remember one who regularly got their [PCGS only] inventory pieces regraded and then advertised that their coins were fresh to the market. Oh yes just by looking through their own inventory archives these coins were revealed to have been sold by them before. Well that dealer's archives cannot be accessed any longer..... go figure. No it wasn't David Hall. 

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So you guys are saying that a coin that is MS65 goes to an MS66, even an MS67....and the dealers' customers recognize it's really a legit MS65 and don't want to pay MS66 or MS67 money -- am I correct ?

And Coinfacts is/was run by PCGS -- does NGC have a counterpart ?

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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8 minutes ago, numisport said:

Well that dealer's archives cannot be accessed any longer..... go figure. No it wasn't David Hall. 

If it's the one I'm thinking of, she doesn't even list what the cert# is for the coin pictured (all pics are in house w/o a TrueView)

Even E-Bay dealers list certification numbers. Totally mind blowing.

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2 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

If it's the one I'm thinking of, she doesn't even list what the cert# is for the coin pictured (all pics are in house w/o a TrueView)

Even E-Bay dealers list certification numbers. Totally mind blowing.

Yep the same dealer who told me that Eric Newman coins were not marketable in NGC holders. They were reholdered by her before they were sold. So that's fine to reholder coins with that kind of pedigree while sitting on that board of experts right ? Really I suspect this kind of conflict is behind PCGS now and only hope this behavior is recognized by us in the know so it is not allowed to skew relative values of marketable numismatic material regardless of whose holder it is.

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48 minutes ago, numisport said:

Yep the same dealer who told me that Eric Newman coins were not marketable in NGC holders. 

That's ridiculous.  Whatever happened to "buy the coin, not the holder" ?

And this is a top-flight dealer, I presume (initials:  LS ? :bigsmile:) selling a prestigious coin collection to presumed savvy buyers.......and she's saying that they can't be sold (or more properly, can't be sold for MAXIMUM $$$$ xD) in NGC holders (as if NGC is ANACs or ICG or some 5th-rate private service that Newman used).

Wow......O.o

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I'm speechless.  I don't know whether to assume these shenanigans pertain only to Saints  (unlikely) or their tentacles extend to every corner of the coin realm.  For my own peace of mind, I think it best to pretend I never read about any of these truly troubling developments.  Nice investigative work.

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5 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I'm speechless.  I don't know whether to assume these shenanigans pertain only to Saints  (unlikely) or their tentacles extend to every corner of the coin realm.  For my own peace of mind, I think it best to pretend I never read about any of these truly troubling developments.  Nice investigative work.

I don't think it's anything more nefarious than what you see in the buying and selling of other illiquid/tangible assets:  art...homes....jewelry.....etc.  Some people are honest about what they are doing when transacting and others are out for themselves and will do anything to pad their P&L.

I find the lack of NGC's over at LN ridiculous.  It's one thing to have clients requesting one TPG over another but to skew so heavily that way for all clients seems very out of kilter to me.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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