French 20-franc gold rooster 0

[zadok]

...oh the real question is...which is worse? the babbling or the whining....

[Henri Charriere]

Q.A.:  I am going to do the unthinkable.

🐓  :  What's that?

Q.A.:  Write the "ASK NGC/NCS" Forum and briefly state, "THIS is what they did over THERE. May I know where the Set Registry stands on this issue?"

🐓  :  Good Luck.  I hope they don't disappear us. 

Q.A.:  Once again, this is a risk I will have to take.  There are exponentially more collectors of the F20F GRs here, than there are over there. They (I guess that includes me) deserve the courtesy of a notice of intent. My identity was stolen over THERE.  I never cared much for assasination by deletion under cover of night. It's downright ungentlemanly.

[GoldFinger1969]

Were these restrikes re-issued ?

They're not like the SSCA "restrike" I bought right ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/20/2024 at 2:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Were these restrikes re-issued ?

They're not like the SSCA "restrike" I bought right ?

This is a question that has gone unanswered for the five years I have been collecting the series. I have never come across a single reference directly stating "NO COINS BEARING THE DATES 1907 TO 1914 WERE MINTED IN THOSE YEARS."

Apparently, PCGS just learned something no other numismatic entity -- including NGC -- was privy to.

What is particularly galling to me is the way they went about notifying me and others: deleting a single "restrike," thereby redistributing set ratings and rankings and waiting to see what happens.

If I had been notified in a more gentlemanly fashion, my set could have avoided complete disarray and I could have either simply deleted my inventory from one set and added it to another, but no preparations including advance notice, had been made to accommodate those who can live with the decision.

Aggravating matters is the fact that any attempt I make to effect the necessary changes is defeated by the age-old warning:  fails to match composite.

I believe the use of the term Restrike, or Refrappe in French, was most unfortunate.  Nothing, apparently, was restruck. If anything, the series was continued after a pause and new dies and planchets with an indiscernible change in metal composition was effected. 

The issue is not even acknowledged in the French "Red Book" and I appear to be the only collector vocal on the matter though there are scores more collecting the series.

If the matter remains unresolved, I will simply pick up my marbles, and go home. It was my intention to retire the sets, here and there, later this year anyway, but I did not anticipate my legacy would be desecrated in such an uncivilized way.

[Cross-grading entails it's own risks and I am not sure the prohibitive seemingly unnecessary expense justifies it.]

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 : I am unfamiliar with the SSCA restrikes. . . but I AM familiar with something Kurt once mentioned: the 1780 Austrian Taler restrikes.  

To me, a restrike would be a coin originally dated, say 1780, that was restruck with the SAME date at a later time.

There are NO restrike Originals. However, I cannot state unequivocally whether there were any roosters dated 1907 to 1914 which were struck in those years. If there were, then the question is how would you distinguish between the two?

I would like to know what prompted the action PCGS took, now, 110 years after the last dated rooster was minted (1914) and some 60 years after the last restrikes were struck.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:09 PM, zadok said:

...anyone that invests in bullion restrikes should realize the folly of their adventure....

For the Record...

The Franklin halves were 90% silver and were minted over l7 years.

The F20FR GR were 90% gold and were minted over 16 years.

I do not recall anyone ever referring to Franklin halves as "bullion" coins to be "invested" in and believe any collector of the series couldn't care less if the first half of the set were called Originals and the second half, Restrikes. Collectors of type sets collect on the basis of years coins were minted and, where applicable, mintmarks.

I collected roosters, first and foremost, on design appeal. Their gold bullion or numismatic value was never a consideration. Compiling the best possible set, limited solely by availability, was my driving force.

You view F20FR GRs from a completely different perspective than I do.  Let me splain that for you: if gold tanks, you lose.  I do not lose anything. Why? Because I still have my roosters.  It's nothing more complicated than that.

Edited June 21 by Henri Charriere
Add word.

[GoldFinger1969]

This whole restrike issue and scarcity of all these coins goes back to the French hoarding culture, unique among Europeans as you can all see from the NYT articles I posted. 

[Henri Charriere]

V I N D I C A T I O N !

          

It appears the Ministry's order in the matter of "z's decree" has been OVERRULED.    

I am pleased to report that my recommendation for "restrike" reconsideration (PCGS refers to them using the French word "refrappes") has been granted AND a new set created -- contrary to z's view -- melding both the Original AND Refrappe Roosters in one set as a series.

I found this out late last nite and, though my set lies in disarray in Set Registry cyberspace, I managed to put enough of it back together again to regain my # 1 ranking.  

The entire issue of "restrikes" is shrouded in ambiguity.  But the fact remains there are 16 coins in the series however which way you cut the pie and label the parts.

All this conspiratorial talk of padding one's set rating proved in the end to be nothing but hogwash.

No one would be foolish enough to suggest the "war time nickels" in the Jefferson nickels be segregated due to their religious persuasion, "silver" sect," because there simply are no Jeffs minted in the war years, that were of the usual composition. If you have a nickel from 1943, it stands to reason there is no need to perform a mass spectrometer test to insure its authenticity as being a member of the Silver Sect.

The same goes for gold roosters. No need to wonder whether one dated 1903 is a restrike, or whether one dated 1911 is an original. It's black and white. My position on this has always been firm and I had the weight of the "body of knowledge" on my side.

Ah, the joy of VINDICATION!

(To mark this momentous occasion, I have taken the liberty of re-naming my West coast set, "The Francois Villon Collection," in a barb to "z's decree.")  🤣

Edited June 30 by Henri Charriere
Add a closing parenthesis; substitute word.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/18/2024 at 10:09 PM, zadok said:

...restrikes dont belong in registry sets as simple as that, just a means to pad points n outscore the collectors who collect the originals...

in other words circumventing the integrity intent of the registry as it is supposed to be.

the originals n the restrikes belong in two separate sets, simple a no-brainer...

anyone that invests in bullion restrikes should realize the folly of their adventure...

n not intrude into the collector base of the originals...

 

u should whine elsewhere, no sympathy here....

🐓:  Looks like one TPGS and their panel of World Coin experts, sitting en banc, have reconsidered their position, and beg to differ.  What was that saying about revenge?...

Q.A.:  It is a dish best served cold.  As I was fond of advising his crony: "You opened the door, counselor!" That was the real reason for any enmity.  As a formidable opponent, he had met his match and lost the jut in his strut. No sympathy? That's okay. I consulted a higher authority, presented my case -- and won. Total Vindication!  I am, once again, the reining current and all-time finest. It doesn't get any better than that.

 

Edited June 22 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing

[J P M]

Good to see you back on top you have been very cranky lately 

[Henri Charriere]

Warmest 🤣 greetings, all, 

My set on the West coast, torn asunder in the wake of a policy change, since reversed, has been reconstituted on a newly-created set, of which, as of 1403 hours today, I am the sole registrant.  While none of the details such as photos and comments have yet to be reassigned, I officially clawed my way back to the No. 1 rank. I chose to assume the responsibility for reassembling my set because I am not a member, have been unable to add to my set in years due to unavailability, and do not participate on their quirky chat board. I did not check, but I have reason to believe most members were unaffected by the unanticipated policy change and the one I had long believed was a constant, credible threat -- a veritable albatross around my neck -- was a phantom who simply did not "retire" his set. Now I know how Seattle Slew felt when, ahead by 17 lengths, he finished first at Belmont and claimed the trophy at the last leg of the Triple Crown in 1977. 

For the benefit of those who continue to cling to the mistaken belief z's decree had merit, herewith the incontrovertible proof:  "French 20-Francs Original or Refrappe Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914)."  It took me an entire week to recover from the unannounced policy change, and negotiating the debris field spread over three sets was a challenge, but I am whole again having recovered my identity. This episode effectively concludes what will indubitably go down in numismatic history as The Great Gold Rooster Ambush of 2024.  🐓 

Edited June 23 by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing: add word.

[GoldFinger1969]

HC, check out this article and look closely at the picture.....you can see French Roosters found in a French gold hoard !! 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38072135

Edited June 30 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

BTW, the French propensity to hoard gold in the 1920's and 1930's......I had forgotten that you had France and Germany go to war 3 times within 70 years, twice within 50 years.

You had 1870....WWI....then the economic and political instability of the 1920's and 1930's leading up to WW II.

With the UK and other countries you had natural boundaries -- water or mountains -- which made invasion routes difficult to pierce.

[Henri Charriere]

It had been my intention to mark the 4th Anniversary of my debut on the Forum with this Topic (4/4/2024) with a retrospective review. Malheureusement, if I were to be asked just how many gold roosters were certified on the West coast for the years 1907-1914, commonly called "restrikes," or "refrappes" in French, I would be unable to respond. I have an idea, but do not know.

That's because the population figures still lie in disarray.  As previously reported, an attempt was made to differentiate between coins dated 1907-1914 and minted on those dates, from those which were restruck later.  Result: a premature break-up of all sets, straight down the middle, placing each segment of the series, 1899-1906 and 1907-1914, in their own separate, dedicated sets.  Thus, the Originals were in one set and the Restrikes in another. The truth, having familiarized myself with this series, is this approach is not only simplistic, but historically incorrect.  The results bear out my assertion.  On PCGS' World Pop charts, there used to be just eight (8) slots corresponding to each of the dates of the Restrike years. Now there are over twenty (20)!  As PCGS discovered, likely much to their dismay, there is no easy way to distinguish a "Restrike" minted on the date indicated from those bearing the same date minted, in some cases, decades later, without personal inspection.  Soon, they abandoned that hasty, ill-conceived approach. Now they have slots for: 1- the circulation strike for that year; 2- restrikes inexplicably determined to be minted on the year shown; and 3- restrikes somehow determined to have been minted at a later date.

In order to make the determination, one MUST have the coin in hand. The only problem is the Set Registry is a virtual universe. Only a numismatist would be qualified to make that judgment and I doubt any will be making home visits any time soon.   

Has anything good come from all this? In a word, Yes.  Collectors of the series hamstrung at having to complete an entire 16-coin series -- an arduous, time-consuming and expensive task, can now opt to compete on a dedicated "refrappes" set registry.  In an odd footnote to this affair, there are only two members on the main new combined Original and Refrappe strike registry with a quirk... though PCGS touts the Registry as being a competitive tool, the member occupying 2nd place chose to maintain his compilation in a non-public set.  It is not possible for anyone to compare his set with another's and no way to contact the other party. Whatever the reason, some collectors on the West coast utilize the Set Registry for their own purposes. So, how many Gold Rooster collectors were there before the messy divorce? Only 7, all of whom occupy a slot on the 13-member All-Time Finest List. To NGC's credit, top management let sleeping dogs lie. There are over ten times as many collectors of F20F/GR here, than there are there.  HAVE A HAPPY 4TH!

Happy Hunting, all!

Edited June 30 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing.

[Henri Charriere]

Why I Gave Up (collecting Fr20Fcs/GR)...

Because I fancy myself a Set Registrant, I do what most collectors afflicted with this syndrome do.  I start out with a single coin, acquire a few more, than curious as to how many comprise a complete set, collect them all, in this case 16. I did not stop there, I kept my eyes out for upgrades. This almost immediately became a daily ritual.

At some point I became aware, likely thru ebay, that there was something called a TPGS. My approach was nilly-willy. PCGS seemed to have a lock on the earlier ones; both NGC and PCGS certified the later restrikes. I quickly embraced the Set Registry concept and devoted my time to upgrading. Complicating matters was the fact World Gold may not be appear together in one set of either Registry.

So far so good until I got reverberations from abroad that the long-established, reputable firms had quietly (without notice) abandoned TPGSs in favor of each of their own country's grading scales. The committed collector can still acquire certified coins, but the pickings have gone from slim to non-existent. Our aerial ambassador confirmed this for me on his last trip.

So, for those with no inkling as to the ramifications of this high-level policy change, allow me to explain.  Right now, I need, nay REQUIRE! a 1910 example in MS-67. In the recent past such an example might be routinely listed as PCGS MS-67, FDC (MS-65 to MS-70) it being understood the NGC grade falls squarely within the French "range" denoted "Fleur de Coin," or poetically,  "flower of coin."

Today, alas, I am bombarded by rather annoying, time-consuminging multi-lingul alphabet soups like the following:  "MS-62 SUP/FDC/EF/BU," because their search options are not further refined.  Permit me to translate this gobbledygook.... MS-62 is self-explanatory; FDC, as indicated above is any coin from MS-65 to MS-70; EF is from the British and indicates a coin graded within the range of AU-55 to MS-62 which is also French, American and English for STLG, or German for STEMPELGLANZ, the highest state of surface preservation short of a PROOF, by whatever name known, which seasoned numismatists know is a manufacturing process and not a grade, per se.

So, how have I fared?  My post on the "Coinplace Market" advertising a Standing Reward of $500. to anyone who can provide leads to the whereabouts of either/and/or a 1910, 1913 and 1914 example has gone unanswered for years.  To add insult to injury, many more coins have been certified in higher grades.  Out of sheer frustration, I acquired a unique pattern, 1/0, recently for lack of anything else to do.  It is a tin uniface, hexagonal in shape, all dressed up in an encapsulation, with no place to go having no place in any Set Registry.

(Posted at the sole discretion of Moderation.)

Edited July 12 by Henri Charriere
Minor die polishing.

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  With Gold spot above $2400/oz and Silver spot above $30/oz, you serious about wanting to talk about Roosters?

Q.A.:  ABSOLUEMENT!

***

My intention was to sing the praises of my hosts who kept their heads, and their hands, off the Rooster Set Registry.  Now, if by deduction, this implies someone else is being bashed, too bad; if the shoe fits, you must convict.

The NGC Set Registry is a thing of beauty to behold. Sleek, uncluttered and USER-FRIENDLY!

There are 83 Rooster Registrants, 51 of whom are listed. Interesting fact: 13 are owned by a single collector who has apparently named each set after a family member or close associate.

Over on the West coast, little more than a month after a secret coup split the one set (mysteriously still extant) into 3 separate sets there are 13 Set Registrants, distributed as follows:

1.  French 20-franc Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914).  Nine (9) are listed as Current Finest -- only three of whose offerings are public. Tell me, dear reader, how does competitiveness occur, and how does one compete with a fellow Set Registrant whose compilation is shrouded in secrecy?  As I have been deemed to be "shallow" by a fellow member on another forum earlier today, I will leave that to minds greater than mine to ponder.

Next up, a composite set:  2.  French 20-franc Original or Refrappe (Restrike) Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914). There are only two (2) current finest, one of which is mine. But how am I expected to assess my standing or perceived looming threat to my rank, if his set is private and inaccessible (barring arduous additional excavation?)

And finally 3. French 20-franc Refrappe Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1907-1914) of which there is only one Current Finest. Interested in competing?  Too bad. His set is non-public. You're out of luck.  You'll have to do some due diligence to determine where you stand.

incidentally, the gentleman who had been breathing down my neck at Rank # 2 at PCGS, reconsidered his decision to retire, resurrected his set, and now occupies the # 1 rank with an unobtrusive [R] next to his name, presumably standing for  "RETIRED."  But, as with many things in life, whether someone is "retired" despite 10 years of non-participation, occurs when he declares he is.

I walked in at the right time. 2019 Gold was low; certification pickings were high. I succeeded where others foundered because I was not risk-averse about expanding my horizons abroad.

I AM A LEGEND iN MY OWN MIND.

(POSTED SOLELY AT THE DISCRETION OF MODERATION.)

MAN, I LOVE THIS PLACE!  🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

This guy Melanchon is a beaut...no wonder the French love their Roosters !!! 

[zadok]

On 7/13/2024 at 11:27 PM, Henri Charriere said:

🐓:  With Gold spot above $2400/oz and Silver spot above $30/oz, you serious about wanting to talk about Roosters?

Q.A.:  ABSOLUEMENT!

***

My intention was to sing the praises of my hosts who kept their heads, and their hands, off the Rooster Set Registry.  Now, if by deduction, this implies someone else is being bashed, too bad; if the shoe fits, you must convict.

The NGC Set Registry is a thing of beauty to behold. Sleek, uncluttered and USER-FRIENDLY!

There are 83 Rooster Registrants, 51 of whom are listed. Interesting fact: 13 are owned by a single collector who has apparently named each set after a family member or close associate.

Over on the West coast, little more than a month after a secret coup split the one set (mysteriously still extant) into 3 separate sets there are 13 Set Registrants, distributed as follows:

1.  French 20-franc Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914).  Nine (9) are listed as Current Finest -- only three of whose offerings are public. Tell me, dear reader, how does competitiveness occur, and how does one compete with a fellow Set Registrant whose compilation is shrouded in secrecy?  As I have been deemed to be "shallow" by a fellow member on another forum earlier today, I will leave that to minds greater than mine to ponder.

Next up, a composite set:  2.  French 20-franc Original or Refrappe (Restrike) Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914). There are only two (2) current finest, one of which is mine. But how am I expected to assess my standing or perceived looming threat to my rank, if his set is private and inaccessible (barring arduous additional excavation?)

And finally 3. French 20-franc Refrappe Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1907-1914) of which there is only one Current Finest. Interested in competing?  Too bad. His set is non-public. You're out of luck.  You'll have to do some due diligence to determine where you stand.

incidentally, the gentleman who had been breathing down my neck at Rank # 2 at PCGS, reconsidered his decision to retire, resurrected his set, and now occupies the # 1 rank with an unobtrusive [R] next to his name, presumably standing for  "RETIRED."  But, as with many things in life, whether someone is "retired" despite 10 years of non-participation, occurs when he declares he is.

I walked in at the right time. 2019 Gold was low; certification pickings were high. I succeeded where others foundered because I was not risk-averse about expanding my horizons abroad.

I AM A LEGEND iN MY OWN MIND.

(POSTED SOLELY AT THE DISCRETION OF MODERATION.)

MAN, I LOVE THIS PLACE!  🤣

...only set number 1 is a true registry set...the other two r padded sets of no consequence....

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:35 PM, zadok said:

...only set number 1 is a true registry set...the other two r padded sets of no consequence....

I regret to inform you, Set #1, is where I was, minding my own business, before high order explosives were placed to blow it up, without prior notice.

a).  Set #1 had been the sole set in existence much like NGC's is today featuring the entire series. That set, which contains BOTH the Original (1899-1906) examples and the Restrikes (1907-1914) examples was cannibalized without notice to participants, to no avail. Nothing has changed.

b).  Sets 1 & 2 are mutually identical in every way, shape and form Evidently, owners of Set #1 are undecided as to what to do.  That often happens to mugging victims. YOU ARE THE ONLY NON-MEMBER WHO CHAMPIONED THE FORMATION OF A SET DEDICATED TO RESTRIKES.

c).  Set 3 is devoted solely to Refrappes (Restrikes) 1907-1914.  It has never been explained how (or if) Refrappes minted on the years featured differ from those minted decades later bearing the same date, identical composition and specifications.

Not surprisingly, and contrary to what you claim, two months after the debacle occurred, only two (2) members opted to transfer their respective holdings to a Set Registry dedicated to Refrappes.  All that talk about "padding" sets, and such, appears to be just that: HOT AIR.

I believe the subject should be open to those who understand and participate in it.  I prevailed not because I had influence -- I am not a PCGS member and do not otherwise participate in their affairs -- but likely because I am their TOP Set Registrant in that category and won the award for Best French Set for the past four consecutive years.

Say, is that Rusty your junkyard dog barking?  Maybe he is due for his supper.

As earlier stated here and in other venues, I believe it best to speak knowledgeably about things you are personally familiar with. That's Roosters for me, and scrapped junk for you.

I am NUMBER ONE on the West Coast. Nobody, not my closest competitor who's halfway through, you, or Ratzie33 can take that away from me. In fact, I am already hard at work on my next project.

A bientot!  

 

Edited July 17 by Henri Charriere
Minor die polishing

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:35 PM, zadok said:

A...only set number 1 is a true registry set.

B...the other two r padded sets of no consequence....

Totally contradicting his earlier stance, and quietly reversing his former position, this member, assuming an authoritative tone, now claims the set which is DNA-identical to the one and only set featured on the NGC Set Registry for years, is the Real McCoy, effectively forgetting in a Presidential-like memory lapse that he, and only HE -- and no one else, including the nearly 100 known collectors of the F20FrGR series, vociferously objected to the inclusion, in any set, of both the Original and Restrikes, as one would saying apples have no business being with oranges. In a nod to others of his ilk, PCGS created TWO more sets, one duplicating the set it vandalized (which z remains unalterably opposed to) and another dedicated to refrappes (restrikes, in French). The very set he trumpeted to all those who would listen to him, he virtually decreed was the only legitimate set. Two months later, two (count 'em) TWO collectors signed up for the Restrike Set. 🐓  :  You're the best, Quintus, and it may not be popular to say so or admit as much, but given the choice between listening to the owner of a junkyard dog who equivocates on a matter he knows nothing about and paying attention to the Top Authority in the hobby who has written extensively on the subject matter as a self-educated man and Rooster Registry participant, who sought out and paid a ransom to bail my family out, I would choose the latter.  

[Mike Meenderink]

 

 

Henri "Papillon" Charrière, a safecracker from the Parisian underworld, is framed for murder. Though he has an alibi from his lover, Nenette, Papillon is convicted and condemned to the notorious Devil's Island penal colony in French Guiana — a hellish prison from which nobody has escaped. Papillon did eventually escape and made his way to freedom. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070511/mediaviewer/rm2170096384/?ref_=tt_ov_i       Papillon 1973 Release D. Hoffman S. Mcqueen.

Edited July 19 by Mike Meenderink

[zadok]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:59 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

 

 

Henri "Papillon" Charrière, a safecracker from the Parisian underworld, is framed for murder. Though he has an alibi from his lover, Nenette, Papillon is convicted and condemned to the notorious Devil's Island penal colony in French Guiana — a hellish prison from which nobody has escaped. Papillon did eventually escape and made his way to freedom. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070511/mediaviewer/rm2170096384/?ref_=tt_ov_i       Papillon 1973 Release D. Hoffman S. Mcqueen.

...he was n still is a loser...is what it is....

[zadok]

On 7/17/2024 at 3:21 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I regret to inform you, Set #1, is where I was, minding my own business, before high order explosives were placed to blow it up, without prior notice.

a).  Set #1 had been the sole set in existence much like NGC's is today featuring the entire series. That set, which contains BOTH the Original (1899-1906) examples and the Restrikes (1907-1914) examples was cannibalized without notice to participants, to no avail. Nothing has changed.

b).  Sets 1 & 2 are mutually identical in every way, shape and form Evidently, owners of Set #1 are undecided as to what to do.  That often happens to mugging victims. YOU ARE THE ONLY NON-MEMBER WHO CHAMPIONED THE FORMATION OF A SET DEDICATED TO RESTRIKES.

c).  Set 3 is devoted solely to Refrappes (Restrikes) 1907-1914.  It has never been explained how (or if) Refrappes minted on the years featured differ from those minted decades later bearing the same date, identical composition and specifications.

Not surprisingly, and contrary to what you claim, two months after the debacle occurred, only two (2) members opted to transfer their respective holdings to a Set Registry dedicated to Refrappes.  All that talk about "padding" sets, and such, appears to be just that: HOT AIR.

I believe the subject should be open to those who understand and participate in it.  I prevailed not because I had influence -- I am not a PCGS member and do not otherwise participate in their affairs -- but likely because I am their TOP Set Registrant in that category and won the award for Best French Set for the past four consecutive years.

Say, is that Rusty your junkyard dog barking?  Maybe he is due for his supper.

As earlier stated here and in other venues, I believe it best to speak knowledgeably about things you are personally familiar with. That's Roosters for me, and scrapped junk for you.

I am NUMBER ONE on the West Coast. Nobody, not my closest competitor who's halfway through, you, or Ratzie33 can take that away from me. In fact, I am already hard at work on my next project.

A bientot!  

 

..."real" coin collectors want "real" coins...restrikes not so much...to some, participation trophies substitute for "real" trophies, to others not so much...

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:59 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

 

 

Henri "Papillon" Charrière, a safecracker from the Parisian underworld, is framed for murder. Though he has an alibi from his lover, Nenette, Papillon is convicted and condemned to the notorious Devil's Island penal colony in French Guiana — a hellish prison from which nobody has escaped. Papillon did eventually escape and made his way to freedom. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070511/mediaviewer/rm2170096384/?ref_=tt_ov_i       Papillon 1973 Release D. Hoffman S. Mcqueen.

Thanks, Mike!  Operative words: "... framed for murder." If it weren't for crusading journalist, Emile "J'accuse!" Zola, our disgruntled member would be disparaging Alfred Dreyfuss who was framed and exiled to an island as its sole prisoner overseen by a single French guard decades before Devil's Island was commissioned.

To the epithet, "Loser." a scene from the 1959 movie, "No Time for Sergeants," (1959) comes to mind.  In a test of his manual dexterity, a young Andy Griffith is instructed to link two metal rings together. While his sponsor, Sgt. King, is engaged in an argument with the tester, a young Don Knotts, Andy, using his ingenuity quickly bends a ring, inserts its twin, and cheerfully presents the two linked rings to a highly upset Knotts who rails Griffith did the test "all wrong" and ruined the rings which cost $16.  Sgt. King's stern response:  "HE PUT 'EM TOGETHER, DIDN'T HE???"

Steve McQueen who played "Papillon" (named for the butterfly tattooed on his chest) covertly built a raft of coconuts, timed his dive off a cliff between large crashing waves, escaped to freedom, wrote a best-selling book, and like Dreyfuss, remained free. I put together the finest, COMPLETE, Gold Rooster set publicly assembled on the West coast Set Registry against all odds making me as much a winner as Charriere was. If my latest acquisition comes thru, I will have superseded my reputation as the Greatest Of All Time, past and present.

Fine piece of research, Mike!  (I believe it is common knowledge that antisemitism played a central role in the fate accorded Dreyfuss and if it weren't for the persistence of Zola, an investigative journalist par excellence, he would have died on that God-forsaken island in complete ignominy.)

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

[GoldFinger1969]

I never saw "Papillon" so thanks for helping me understand where the name HC came from. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/21/2024 at 3:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I never saw "Papillon" so thanks for helping me understand where the name HC came from. 

For the benefit of those who have spent a few restless nites -- me, wondering whether the $900. I placed in a plain envelope, and mailed to France unregistered, uninsured, uncertified with no tracking number to someone I never met or spoke to, and you, wondering how "papillon" is pronounced -- herewith the correct pronunciation: poppyYAWN.  

Edited July 21 by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing.

[J P M]

On 7/21/2024 at 11:22 AM, Henri Charriere said:

For the benefit of those who have spent a few restless nites -- me, wondering whether the $900. I placed in a plain envelope, and mailed to France unregistered, uninsured, uncertified with no tracking number to someone I never met or spoke to, and you, wondering how "papillon" is pronounced -- herewith the correct pronunciation: poppyYAWN.  

I have been thinking about your purchase. How is it going  

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:05 AM, J P M said:

I have been thinking about your purchase. How is it going  

I do not know how long it should take a letter to reach, Paris, France.  I figure, a week tops.  I expect a text by August 1st, acknowledging receipt should be sufficient enough to establishing it had reached its destination and processing the order would soon follow.  I am very optimistic. I am not sending them a shipment; I am sending them a "Greeting Card

I expect the mails to function as intended.  If it does not, I won't jump to conclusions.  Both the firm and the gentleman who had been assigned to assist me have been apprised payment is on its way.

If in the event nothing materializes, the very worst that can happen, judging by remarks made here over the years, will range from ridicule to a sober apology:  "Well, I wouldn't have gone about it that way." to "What did he expect?... Who sends money in the mail, especially overseas? " As always, I remain optimistic --  "What, me worry?" -- and  restate my promise that whichever way things go, I will report it to the membership. 🐓 

 

Edited July 24 by Henri Charriere
Routine die polishing

[Henri Charriere]

SNEAK PREVIEW...

On the West coast, they couldn't care less if you spent a million dollars on a coin and have the confirmation number to prove it.  It's not going to get posted on a Set Registry until you accept delivery. I felt a distiction ought to be made between individual sellers and reputable, well-known institutions. So I would cut corners and text them a copy of the invoice marked PAID IN FULL and be In Like Flint.

It was just my luck that I had gotten a text from a gentleman I hadn't heard from in a long time who, of the three coins I desperately needed, had the one I wanted most. The only problem no one could have anticipated was we were in the midst of a "global tech outage" which meant, the coin I would be happy to surrender my broken right leg for had as much value as being left without the means by which I could conclude my FINAL transaction: No bank wire transfer, Western Union or PayPal. Not all alternatives were acceptable payment options.

I paid USD 900. for it. Yes, in cash.  Did I see the coin?  Surely you jest!  The text said 1913 FDC/PCGS MS-67. That's all I needed to know. I figure I should have it in hand by August 13th.  I think the folks at cgb.fr were so startled by the transaction that it's president, impressed with my dogged commitment, sent me a photo which unfortunately is buried in a mass of paper that has been accumulating on my desk now for six years.

What follows is a helpful link;

https://www.cgbfr.com/20-francs-or-coq-liberte-egalite-fraternite-1913-paris-f-535-7-fdc-pcgs,fmd_938618,a.html

If it is withfrawn, the PCGS Certification No.: is 5039 0783 (split for clarity).

Generally speaking, I feel if you've seen one Rooster, you've seen them all.  I make an exception for this one.  This one (I haven't seen the reverse) is Exceptional. Two have been certified at this grade on the East Coast. Two have been certified at this lofty grade on the West coast. This makes #5.  Over 12 million were keystroked in Paris. The one unique characteristic, actually two that I know of, is it is encapsulated with a computer chip.  Does that work like a GPS-equipped Lo-jack?  I have no idea.  The other is it has been adjudged to be a "Refrappe," or restrike.  Is it?  I would say so.  That obverse is unbelievably flawless.  If I should ever have the privilege and enjoy the honor of acquiring it, I will want to carry it everywhere I go, but knowing the boss as well as I do, being married to her for 8 years she will not allow me to. Is there a Life after a Set Registry?  I not only don't know... I have no idea.  If I find that photograph, I will post it and defy anyone to find fault with it. Sitting at my table, bad left leg crossed over my good right leg, wife's cell in my left, right thumb combing every corner of the globe, I have never seen a finer coin about to risk its life flying crossing the North Atlantic solely to sate one man's insatiable thirst for perfection.  None of the coins I have acquired will ever return to France if I have something to say about it.  🐓 

 

Edited July 30 by Henri Charriere
Extensive editing.

[J P M]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:58 PM, Henri Charriere said:

@GoldFinger1969 : I am unfamiliar with the SSCA restrikes. . . but I AM familiar with something Kurt once mentioned: the 1780 Austrian Taler restrikes.  

To me, a restrike would be a coin originally dated, say 1780, that was restruck with the SAME date at a later time.

There are NO restrike Originals. However, I cannot state unequivocally whether there were any roosters dated 1907 to 1914 which were struck in those years. If there were, then the question is how would you distinguish between the two?

I would like to know what prompted the action PCGS took, now, 110 years after the last dated rooster was minted (1914) and some 60 years after the last restrikes were struck.

In one of my old books on gold coins it says the restrikes from 1951 are almost always uncirculated and have a strong red-gold color.