Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[zadok]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:30 AM, VKurtB said:

My “finance guy” is doing a bit better than I am on my much smaller personally managed account, but my biggest positive performer of all is one stock he advised strongly against. The thing that’s holding my aggregate results down is that I invested in both banks where I have my accounts. They’re larger regional banks and some “whale” has been hammering them with short selling. I have tried to bank at small community banks, but they keep getting merged into regionals. 

...totally understand that approach...i hate the big national bank chains just too impersonal n down right unfriendly, regionals much nicer to do business with but constantly being bought up...few local banks left to patronize...as far as stocks i too try buy some in the banks i use, mostly holding their own so far this year....

[VKurtB]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:42 AM, zadok said:

...totally understand that approach...i hate the big national bank chains just too impersonal n down right unfriendly, regionals much nicer to do business with but constantly being bought up...few local banks left to patronize...as far as stocks i too try buy some in the banks i use, mostly holding their own so far this year....

Besides, it’s cool to walk into my bank branch and think, “this is my place, and these, these are my people”. I don’t get that same buzz when I drink a Coke or take a generic drug.

Edited July 25, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

Besides, it’s cool to walk into my bank branch and think, “this is my place, and these, these are my people”. I don’t get that same buzz when I drink a Coke or take a generic drug.

Yes I get the hometown treatment. They are always pleasant and save old coins and Ike dollars for me. Even when I bring in coin rolls to swap for ones I have not looked at yet. The girls are always amazed that I can reroll them to look almost the same as when I picked them up the week before.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:42 AM, zadok said:

...totally understand that approach...i hate the big national bank chains just too impersonal n down right unfriendly, regionals much nicer to do business with but constantly being bought up...few local banks left to patronize...as far as stocks i too try buy some in the banks i use, mostly holding their own so far this year....

We have 4,000 banks in this country...down from 15,000 about 30 years ago.

[RWB]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Agreed...but many here don't want to or can't spend the time to judge the grade on a coin.  And if you are going to spend thousands of dollars on a coin -- or even hundreds of dollars -- you don't want to be ripped off by a ton because you totally got it wrong on a coin that was sold as MS-63 and in fact was closer to AU-55.

What one "wants" and what one "receives" might not be identical.

[GoldFinger1969]

Heritage says:  "...Today, double eagles and silver dollars, the two largest regular issue coins of the United States, are collected by more individuals than any other single denomination, regardless of metallic composition."

If that is true -- and I guess it depends on what you consider a "collector" (active ?  how active ?  how many coins ?) -- I assumed that (especially for DEs) that their cost meant that there had to be more Small U.S. Denomination collectors (Pennies, Nickles, Quarters, Halfs, etc.).   I guess I was wrong.

If it IS true, it's surprising on the DE end.  I am NOT surprised if Morgans are the most popular series, because the entry bar is much lower.

Anybody think that DE collectors could be more popular than we think ?  Or maybe Heritage is including the investor class for DEs which gives it a leg-up on other coins ?

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:05 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Heritage says:  "...Today, double eagles and silver dollars, the two largest regular issue coins of the United States, are collected by more individuals than any other single denomination, regardless of metallic composition."

If that is true -- and I guess it depends on what you consider a "collector" (active ?  how active ?  how many coins ?) -- I assumed that (especially for DEs) that their cost meant that there had to be more Small U.S. Denomination collectors (Pennies, Nickles, Quarters, Halfs, etc.).   I guess I was wrong.

If it IS true, it's surprising on the DE end.  I am NOT surprised if Morgans are the most popular series, because the entry bar is much lower.

Anybody think that DE collectors could be more popular than we think ?  Or maybe Heritage is including the investor class for DEs which gives it a leg-up on other coins ?

 

...this is an open ended subject with many points of view...operative words..."collected" n "individuals"...collected can mean just buying n not any specified numbers of, ditto definition of collector, u sort of need a better picture of how many bought how many...im not sure heritage or any other auction firm can clearly distinguish between investor n collector plus some r both...a better picture of collecting would be showing the largest number of denominations bought at 10 year intervals, im sure more penny collectors than DE collectors in the 1950s...the demographics today r skewed due to discretionary money availability n as u say entry level prices...morgans being number ! doesnt surprise me, big showy coins, large mintages, numerous varieties, numerous dates, massive promotion, speculation on n on...large showy coins have always been popular both US n foreign, just look at the collector base for Mexican 50 pesos...interesting subject im sure u will get several responses...id like to see a running census over several decades for US but doubt one has been tabulated...kudos on ur post....

[GoldFinger1969]

Zadok, I have to believe Heritage is including those who buy a Saint to get 1 ounce of gold (well, 0.9675 ounces !).  Many might have NO IDEA what they own, just that it's a gold coin.

My clients in the 1990's were buying Saints and maybe Liberty's from Blanchard and I had no idea what they were at the time (maybe they didn't, either).  My ignorance and idiocy..... I could have been buying Saints at 1/3rd the price I paid 20 years later !! 

Edited July 30, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

OK....2 1/2 months of no posts here is a record that needs to come to an end. 

The decision to melt down all the Double Eagles into 400 ounce bars was for simplicity and ease-of-trade.  It also saved space relative to smaller coin sizes (I have a good size of coin vs. space used post but I can't find it).

Question:  has anybody ever read or saw anything where officials discussed maybe not melting down ALL or SOME of the gold coins....that they would just store all the coins at Fort Knox and various FRB's and sub-treasuries ? 

I know the 400-oz. bars were better for international commerce...but why go through all the time and expense of melting down tens of millions of coins of all denominations just to make bars...when there was no guarantee the bars themselves would be used (who knows ?) in any global pseudo-gold standard ?

Edited October 15, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Converting the stored coins into bullion bars accomplished the things you mentioned. It also prevented any attempt to re-issue, overstamp, or sell them at a premium to collectors.

With right-wing extremists in Germany and Japan, and Europe and our Congress with their heads in the sand, the FDR administration recognized that a new war was likely. There were suggestions to retain a quantity of Liberty-head $2.50, $5 and $10 coins to use for wartime purposes such as emergency kits for pilots and bribes to locals in north Africa and Europe. However, it was determined that US gold coins played little role local trade in these areas, and were often traded at a discount -- mostly because they were not familiar to potential recipients. (See the book "Saudi Gold, etc." for details and a photo of an emergency kit.)

[Henri Charriere]

It may very well be that storage of gold in assayed bars is the most economical form vs hundreds of coins -- and space savers as stackable as well.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:06 PM, Henri Charriere said:

It may very well be that storage of gold in assayed bars is the most economical form vs hundreds of coins -- and space savers as stackable as well.

Yes....I had a blurb from Bowers' Liberty Head DE book....I know I saved it in Word and also posted it somewhere here but I can't find it. 

But it showed how larger gold coins allowed you to save much more in terms of $$$ value or size.

[RWB]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The decision to melt down all the Double Eagles into 400 ounce bars was for simplicity and ease-of-trade.  It also saved space relative to smaller coin sizes

This is what GoldFinger1969 wrote.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:06 PM, Henri Charriere said:

It may very well be that storage of gold in assayed bars is the most economical form vs hundreds of coins -- and space savers as stackable as well.

Found it : 

"$1 MM face value of Morgan Dollars in 1,000 coin/8-oz. duck bags took 250 cubic feet to store; other smaller silver denominations in $1 MM took 150 cf; $1 MM in gold coins in $5,000 8-oz duck bags took 17 cf."

You can imagine what it took space-wise to store $20 MM in MSDs vs. $20 MM in DEs !  

[RWB]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Found it : 

"$1 MM face value of Morgan Dollars in 1,000 coin/8-oz. duck bags took 250 cubic feet to store; other smaller silver denominations in $1 MM took 150 cf; $1 MM in gold coins in $5,000 8-oz duck bags took 17 cf."

You can imagine what it took space-wise to store $20 MM in MSDs vs. $20 MM in DEs !  

I'll take either -- and pay the storage. 

[zadok]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Found it : 

"$1 MM face value of Morgan Dollars in 1,000 coin/8-oz. duck bags took 250 cubic feet to store; other smaller silver denominations in $1 MM took 150 cf; $1 MM in gold coins in $5,000 8-oz duck bags took 17 cf."

You can imagine what it took space-wise to store $20 MM in MSDs vs. $20 MM in DEs !  

…well i had to buy a bigger bread box…

[zadok]

…its not so much the cost of the gold that bothers me nor having to expand my basement, its the increasing cost for the dang pallets…

[GoldFinger1969]

I think Roger or someone answered this somewhere way back in this thread...but what exactly is an 8-oz. "duck bag" ?  

Was it just a regular coin bag, a predecessor to those $5,000 bags we saw holding the Saints decades later ?

Edited October 19, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think Roger or someone answered this somewhere way back in this thread...but what exactly is an 8-oz. "duck bag" ?  

Was it just a regular coin bag, a predecessor to those $5,000 bags we saw holding the Saints decades later ?

...8 oz per sq yard...of "doek" cotton with a canvas type weave strong enuf to carry all ur aurum without ripping....

[RWB]

"Duck" was a name for the type of material (canvas) and 8-oz was the material's weight per unit of measurement (which I've forgotten).

[ldhair]

Same thing as canvas tarps. The weight gives you an idea of how strong it is. It's interesting that they weigh it by the yard but it's bought and sold by the square ft. 

[RWB]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, ldhair said:

Same thing as canvas tarps. The weight gives you an idea of how strong it is. It's interesting that they weigh it by the yard but it's bought and sold by the square ft. 

I have a rectangular yard. How many Ducks would it take to measure that?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, ldhair said:

Same thing as canvas tarps. The weight gives you an idea of how strong it is. It's interesting that they weigh it by the yard but it's bought and sold by the square ft. 

Sounds like these "duck bags" may have been stronger and held up longer than those $5,000 bags used decades later ?

[zadok]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sounds like these "duck bags" may have been stronger and held up longer than those $5,000 bags used decades later ?

...everything lasted longer...bottom line; things were made to last, now things r made with a designed shelf life...purpose?...bottom line enhancement....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:03 AM, zadok said:

...everything lasted longer...bottom line; things were made to last, now things r made with a designed shelf life...purpose?...bottom line enhancement....

I am sure it depended on how often the bags were moved....RWB wrote a nice piece on a bag that contained 1928 Saint DEs.....the bags holding the Wells Fargo 1908 NM's apparently wore out in the 1950's or 1960's (after about 50 years) and had to be replaced.

[RWB]

Like most other supplies, bag fabric was purchased on bid by contractors and quality and fabric weight varied from time to time. They also had bags made outside the mint by individual piece workers and small businesses. Dampness was the big enemy of cotton coin bags.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:51 PM, RWB said:

Like most other supplies, bag fabric was purchased on bid by contractors and quality and fabric weight varied from time to time. They also had bags made outside the mint by individual piece workers and small businesses. Dampness was the big enemy of cotton coin bags.

If bags moved from bank-to-bank -- let alone across the Atlantic -- that also had to increase wear & tear compared to sitting in a vault.

[RWB]

Dollar bags got most of the abuse simply because they sat in one spot for many years subject to rot. Other coin bags went from Mint to Sub-treasury to bank where coins were removed and the bag reused.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/20/2023 at 8:31 PM, RWB said:

Dollar bags got most of the abuse simply because they sat in one spot for many years subject to rot. Other coin bags went from Mint to Sub-treasury to bank where coins were removed and the bag reused.

It's somewhat surprising there aren't more Morgan and Double Eagle bags around, especially Morgan bags since some people took delivery of entire bags of MSDs during the 1960's.  Even in bad/worn condition.

Edited October 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

I've been told of several large accumulations of dollar bags from the 1960s. The dealers and speculators cherrypicked what they got from Treasury, then refilled and returned the bags. Treasury had to open and count every returned bag, re-label it with the contents, fill, crimp/tie and seal. The Federal Reserve preferred using their own labeled bags and separate tag accounting system, so some US Mint bags were discarded. Several million dollars were removed from rotting bags in the mid-late 1890s at Philadelphia and put into wooden boxes. These were evidently the first to go in 1918.

DE and other gold coin bags were usually burned and gold dust recovered from the ashes. The Swiss were very careful to give each bag of gold a good, hearty shake before opening and consolidating the coins into $25,000 European bank standard bags. Swiss banks sold the coins as if they were always 100% full weight - which they usually were not, at least in bulk. Swiss and Swedish bankers also realized long ago that British sovereigns were not really uniform in weight, so they reweighed everything they got. The legal but light coins were passed on to others; heavy and overweight lots were melted and sold as bullion bars, thereby capturing extra profit on the excess gold from overweight coins.

(I recall there's a little about this in the SG-DE book -- I think....)

Edited October 22, 2023 by RWB