Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:35 PM, RWB said:

His diary provides few details and contemporary newspaper articles don't add much. I never found an inventory of the theft.

Wow, I didn't know his SON was John Ashbrook, a favorite of William F. Buckley and NATIONAL REVIEW who challenged Nixon in the 1972 GOP primaries !!  The father was a Dem, but John was a GOP'er who represented the same district/area.

Tragically, John died in 1982 at age 53 from a gastrointestinal hemmorage while running for the Senate. His widow filled out his congressional term; she is still alive.

Edited December 4, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Could the daughter-in-law have collection info, etc.?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:35 PM, RWB said:

His diary provides few details and contemporary newspaper articles don't add much. I never found an inventory of the theft.

When bank robberies, larcenies and burglaries became problematic years later, the FBI advised banking association [and presumably the mass media to refrain from providing specific figures on the losses expropriation. Wise move.

[RWB]

These little side trips might be interesting, but they don't belong to the subject of this thread....OK Quintus/Henri ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:26 PM, RWB said:

Could the daughter-in-law have collection info, etc.?

The surviving widow is his 2nd wife, she's still alive.  He and his 1st wife divorced in 1971.  3 children, not sure with which lady.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:52 PM, Henri Charriere said:

When bank robberies, larcenies and burglaries became problematic years later, the FBI advised banking association [and presumably the mass media to refrain from providing specific figures on the losses expropriation. Wise move.

Could you keep something like that secret ?  The police and insurance companies -- and regulators and politicians -- would need to know if $500 or $500,000 was stolen.

[olympicsos]

On 11/28/2023 at 11:33 AM, RWB said:

The primary international gold coin was the sovereign and other pieces of the same size and gold content. US coins were never major international bullion pieces. Eagles were in greater demand than Double Eagles as were Half Eagles until the awful "Indian Head" version. All U.S. military and diplomatic actions during and after WW-2 used sovereigns, Napoleons, and occasionally Canadian, Italian lira, Swiss francs, etc. In negotiations with French and Libyans in North Africa, U.S. gold coins were rejected for their unfamiliarity to locals.

The three pages below, from the book Saudi Gold and other tales from the Mint describes the situation more fully. (Start midway on page 164 and read through page 166.)

But what about all those double eagles that were exported? What about the double eagle being seen as an international trade coin? Other than backing for gold certificates, if it wasn't the big international trade coin, there might be no point to that coin. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:37 PM, RWB said:

These little side trips might be interesting, but they don't belong to the subject of this thread....OK Quintus/Henri ?

My sincerest apologies. My off-topic Topic was dismantled and I had wanted ti bring the topic up where It was introduced.  Your wish is my command.  

[RWB]

On 12/4/2023 at 7:48 AM, olympicsos said:

But what about all those double eagles that were exported? What about the double eagle being seen as an international trade coin? Other than backing for gold certificates, if it wasn't the big international trade coin, there might be no point to that coin. 

Nearly all DE that were exported were melted and used for local coins; that was the practical limit to their use in international (or domestic) trade. The quantities remaining in Europe and South America were simply "left-overs" that served trade purposes or as bullion reserves. Double eagles and eagles were not consistent with European trade and commerce. European gold coins usually approximated the sovereign in size and weight. It is those pieces that heavily dominate bank "hoards," the Nazi thefts, etc.

Edited December 4, 2023 by RWB

[RWB]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Could you keep something like that secret ?  The police and insurance companies -- and regulators and politicians -- would need to know if $500 or $500,000 was stolen.

In an era when bank failures were common, I would expect the scale of a robbery would be confidential to the bank. Public confidence was all that kept some of those banks in business. There was little insurance and no protection when a bank failed.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:51 AM, RWB said:

Double eagles and eagles were not consistent with European trade and commerce. European gold coins usually approximated the sovereign in size and weight. It is those pieces that heavily dominate bank "hoards," the Nazi thefts, etc.

You mean 1/2 ounce and 1/4 ounce gold coins, right Roger ?

But DEs and Eagles HAD to be used with European trade/commerce -- there were millions of coins over there.  Granted, the $$$ value still probably much less than gold bars but still a decent amount going back-and-forth, right ?  Plus the coins sent to Canada, Asia, South/Central America.

[RWB]

On 12/4/2023 at 12:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You mean 1/2 ounce and 1/4 ounce gold coins, right Roger ?

But DEs and Eagles HAD to be used with European trade/commerce -- there were millions of coins over there.  Granted, the $$$ value still probably much less than gold bars but still a decent amount going back-and-forth, right ?  Plus the coins sent to Canada, Asia, South/Central America.

U.S. gold coins were simply bullion. Sovereigns and their imitations from the Latin Monetary Convention were used for commerce, bank payments, etc. There were few instances when U.S. gold coins of any denomination were of public interest, and none when they were used directly by the public. (European consumers were no more attracted to large gold coins in their packet books and Americans. Our DE and E were convenient export alternatives to bullion bars.)

"You mean 1/2 ounce and 1/4 ounce gold coins, right Roger ?"

No. The closest U.S. coin was a half eagle - $5

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:55 PM, RWB said:

No. The closest U.S. coin was a half eagle - $5

Yeah, I confused "half ounce" with "half Eagle" ......half eagle is 1/4 ounce of gold, 0.25 ounces of gold.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, your 12,367 estimate for MCMVII High Reliefs......is that before or after the 1,246 were melted ? 

I presume those melted HRs were not up to spec.

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:37 PM, RWB said:

These little side trips might be interesting, but they don't belong to the subject of this thread....OK Quintus/Henri ?

I have removed the objectionable material.  My sincere apologies.

[RWB]

On 12/11/2023 at 2:32 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I have removed the objectionable material.  My sincere apologies.

The material is not "objectionable" of itself -- but it was attracting vermin.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/11/2023 at 6:20 PM, RWB said:

The material is not "objectionable" of itself -- but it was attracting vermin.

I am deeply sorry and assure you there will be no such trespass again.

[GoldFinger1969]

Back to the MCMVII HR's.......

[GoldFinger1969]

Wow.....MS-67 Saints (1908 NM's) for $5,500 and less.   

More to come later in the Saint Pricing Thread.

[GoldFinger1969]

A bigtime collector over ATS noted that "PCGS has recently started calling certain of the HRs 'SP' because they are different- they are struck with the UHR collar..."

Not sure how long this has been going on, and I know this was covered in Roger's books.  Anybody got any thoughts on this ?  What is the importance of the UHR collar -- that's the metal that wraps around the coin, right ?  Why would it matter in terms of apperance and why would it enter the proof debate (I realize the UHR collar was part of the striking of UHRs, which ARE proofs) ?

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  Is he denigrating what amounts to "High Wires"?

Q.A.:  Gosh, I hope not!  🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

Whip Inflation Now (WIN):  Apologies to Gerald Ford and Arthur Burns , but I came across an interesting tidbit while scanning Aker's 1907-33 Gold Book.

At the time, the book said that PCGS and NGC had certified only 3 coins from the 1909-D Saint series as MS-67.   I then checked the current population census, expecting to see a nice increase in the 15 years since the dated information appeared in the book.....NO increase !!  2 PCGS, 1 NGC. 

NGC has 6 MS-65's and 1 MS-66; PCGS has 25 in MS-65 and 4 MS-66's and another 3 MS-66+.  Nice to see time hasn't led to any gradeflations in this series.  Maybe the absolute low number there made it harder to increase the total over time, unlike a larger population.

[RWB]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice to see time hasn't led to any gradeflations in this series.

If the same coins were submitted, it is then you would see gradeflation on the labels. There evidently aren't enough high grade pieces available to disturb the current distribution curve.

[GoldFinger1969]

Strike vs. Luster vs. Eye Appeal:  Doing a little project....I'm comparing the rankings and comments on Strike, Luster, and Eye Appeal on all the Saint-Gaudens DEs from 3 of my Double Eagle Books:  Akers (2008), Bowers (2004), and Roger (2018).

If anybody wants me to post the sheet when I'm finished, let me know.   It's not an exact science, I'm using letter grades and sometimes they aren't directly commenting but you have to read related commentary to fish it out.

[RWB]

Sounds like a meaningful project. (My comments are probably very different than the others -- I have no business or selling interests in the coins.)

Edited January 22 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

Sounds like a meaningful project. (My comments are probably very different than the others -- I have no business or selling interests in the coins.)

Unfortunately, it looks like many of the coins in Bower's book don't have definitive opinions on all 3 variables.  Akers book does....yours certainly does.

Well, I'll see how it turns out. 

[RWB]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

A bigtime collector over ATS noted that "PCGS has recently started calling certain of the HRs 'SP' because they are different- they are struck with the UHR collar..."

Not sure how long this has been going on, and I know this was covered in Roger's books.  Anybody got any thoughts on this ?  What is the importance of the UHR collar -- that's the metal that wraps around the coin, right ?  Why would it matter in terms of apperance and why would it enter the proof debate (I realize the UHR collar was part of the striking of UHRs, which ARE proofs) ?

That is a false assumption. ALL the HR pieces were struck with that collar (it was the only one) until a second pair of dies and collar were added in late November 1907. The UHR pieces are patterns, not coins, and were struck with more blows of the medal press and more annealings. The dies/design differs from HR MCMVII and  patterns are closer to pure gold color (yellower) because the 6 annealing and acid dipping cycles depleted  copper in the surface.  (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for facts, not fantasy.)

If the PCGS Board poster's comment is correct, then the designation is false. Why was a change made from accurate attribution to a lie?

Edited January 23 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, RWB said:

That is a false assumption....  Why was a change made from accurate attribution to a lie?

Changes are never made willy-nilly.  "SP" sounds, well SPECIAL.  I smell a financial motive at work here:  invent a diagnosis and back it up with a plausible, credible story. That's my take.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:07 AM, RWB said:

That is a false assumption. ALL the HR pieces were struck with that collar (it was the only one) until a second pair of dies and collar were added in late November 1907. The UHR pieces are patterns, not coins, and were struck with more blows of the medal press and more annealings. The dies/design differs from HR MCMVII and  patterns are closer to pure gold color (yellower) because the 6 annealing and acid dipping cycles depleted  copper in the surface.  (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for facts, not fantasy.)  If the PCGS Board poster's comment is correct, then the designation is false. Why was a change made from accurate attribution to a lie?

Let me find the post, get more info.  It was a few weeks ago and I forgot about the context but should be able to find the post again.

[GoldFinger1969]

Here is the link, hope that linking ATS is permitted here:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13643555#Comment_13643555

I commented that it was a spectacular coin....and FFL commented about the SP designation and the coin's pedigree.  It's about 2/3rds of the way down the thread....make sure to check out the pictures of some great coins, including the MCMVII HR discussed here.