• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Newman coins

Started by numisport,

23 posts in this topic

numisport

numisport

Posted
Posted

Nothing wrong with Newman coins reholdered in PCGS holders. They are still the same coins as long as they are not misrepresented or played with by dealers who want to market them in such a way that they end up as a commodity that will end up tucked away in an investment portfolio. Is it possible that I've already seen some tampering or is it just photo editing. I guess Ill take a closer look.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
My comment is that they are the same coins without the pedigree noted on the holder or even in a holder at all. So the OP is correct, the coins don't change.

 

It sounds to me as if the OP thinks some of the coins might have changed (due to doctoring).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
My comment is that they are the same coins without the pedigree noted on the holder or even in a holder at all. So the OP is correct, the coins don't change.

 

It sounds to me as if the OP thinks some of the coins might have changed (due to doctoring).

 

Words mean something, and usually have a higher level of clarity to the person that uses the words, than to the person that reads or hears the words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mr.Mcknowitall

Mr.Mcknowitall

Posted
Posted
Nothing wrong with Newman coins not in any holders or no holder. They are still the same coins as long as they are not misrepresented or played with by dealers or TPGs/4PGs or collectors or investors who want to market them in such a way that they end up as a commodity that will end up tucked away in an investment portfolio or in a collection. It is possible that I've already seen some tampering or it is just photo editing. I guess Ill take a closer look.

 

Fixed. :acclaim::foryou:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Walkerfan

Walkerfan

Posted
Posted

I like the Newman coins and would love to own one but there is still too much of a premium attached to them IMHO.

 

One coin that comes to mind is the Newman/Green 1935 P WLH in 65 that now resides in a PCGS 65 slab but still has the pedigree (I think). The coin has a very distinctive green toning across it, unlike anything that I've seen on a Walker like that.

 

HOWEVER, it has some distracting marks on that telltale right facing breast of Miss Liberty and the strike is nominal, at best. It was recently for sale in a well known dealer's inventory for $795. That is too much IMHO, when run of the mill 1935 P 65s are selling for $200.

 

At $300; I felt that I paid strong money for my 1935 P 65. The Newman coin FAR exceeds that price. For that reason; I am happy with my $300 OGH coin without the marks and mine also has great luster & strike but just not the unusual color.

 

Finally, if I ever do purchase a Newman coin; I will purchase one in the original NGC slab, so as to be sure that I am receiving one that hasn't been fooled with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Strictly, the provenance of a coin is not important unless the coin has a connection with notable persons or events, or possibly location. (See numismatics in archaeology.) Some might feel that owning a coin that was once owned by a famous person is important to them, while others might be more dispassionate.

 

However, once the provenance is dropped from a slabbed coin, it is very difficult to reestablish.

 

A suggestion is to keep the provenance of the coin - some future owner might find it desirable.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
numisport

numisport

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jpcienkus

jpcienkus

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

 

Are you saying their might be coins from the Newman collection that went directly to PCGS and were not part of the NGC graded sales on Heritage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

 

Are you saying their might be coins from the Newman collection that went directly to PCGS and were not part of the NGC graded sales on Heritage?

 

No. He is saying that is plausible that some were cracked out and submitted raw. "Crossover" implies that they were submitted in their NGC holders. I don't know why anyone would do this, since (it seems to me) that the Newman coins carried a large premium for the Newman pedigree, but such is the coin business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

 

Are you saying their might be coins from the Newman collection that went directly to PCGS and were not part of the NGC graded sales on Heritage?

 

No. He is saying that is plausible that some were cracked out and submitted raw. "Crossover" implies that they were submitted in their NGC holders. I don't know why anyone would do this, since (it seems to me) that the Newman coins carried a large premium for the Newman pedigree, but such is the coin business.

 

Correct. They could have been submitted raw. And if the submitters wanted the Newman name on the labels, it could probably be accomplished by providing copies of purchase invoices and/or suitable matching images of the coins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
numisport

numisport

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I was attempting to post images of Newman's 1876 Seated Quarter but having trouble figuring it out. I also realize that I do not own this piece and my images are copyright protected. Learning the ropes !

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Conder101

Conder101

Posted
Posted
it could probably be accomplished by providing copies of purchase invoices and/or suitable matching images of the coins.

If they are submitted raw they would have to be conclusively identifiable from the auction catalog images. The TPG's have been a lot more gun shy about assigning a pedigree to a raw coin since the Norweb Hibernia fiasco. PCGS caught a lot of bad press over that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

The only link of provenance was assigned by the original authentication company. Another company might accept that provenance and note it on their paper insert - but, if the coin was removed from it's original holder by anyone except the second authentication service, then the provenance is lost. Reestablishing the original chain of ownership is very difficult to do and will take a lot of "convincing" by the present coin's owner to get it accepted by ANY authentication company.

 

[Personally, I won't accept any inferred provenance. Once the original connection is lost, it is gone forever...No, not even multiple postmortem letters signed by Wally Breen will do.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jpcienkus

jpcienkus

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

 

Are you saying their might be coins from the Newman collection that went directly to PCGS and were not part of the NGC graded sales on Heritage?

 

No. He is saying that is plausible that some were cracked out and submitted raw. "Crossover" implies that they were submitted in their NGC holders. I don't know why anyone would do this, since (it seems to me) that the Newman coins carried a large premium for the Newman pedigree, but such is the coin business.

 

Correct. They could have been submitted raw. And if the submitters wanted the Newman name on the labels, it could probably be accomplished by providing copies of purchase invoices and/or suitable matching images of the coins.

 

So why would someone who wanted one of these coins in a PCGS holder, crack them out of the NGC holder and submit them raw, while at the same time, sending in documentation proving its provenance? Wouldn't it just be easier to submit for a crossover, leaving it in the holder.

 

I understand my question is more a curiosity and you can't possibly answer for someone else. I'm just kind of scratching my head as to why they would do it in that manner. Did they think they had a better chance of an upgrade outside the NGC holder? If yes, then wouldn't PCGS be able to reference the original grade on the invoice that was provided to prove provenance? I'm guessing the grader of the coin wouldn't have access to the HA invoice and that may be why they did it.

 

This method of getting it in a PCGS holder just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I did see several Newman coins offered by a major dealer in PCGS holders. So I dug up Newman archives to match them after NGC graded them. However I don't know if the PCGS holders had Newman pedigree on the label. Has anyone seen these now PCGS Newman coins ?

Of course if the Newman name is on those PCGS holders then they must have been submitted for crossover rather than raw. At least one is now missing the Star.

 

I don't think it's a given that Newman coins now in PCGS holders must have been submitted for crossover.

 

Are you saying their might be coins from the Newman collection that went directly to PCGS and were not part of the NGC graded sales on Heritage?

 

No. He is saying that is plausible that some were cracked out and submitted raw. "Crossover" implies that they were submitted in their NGC holders. I don't know why anyone would do this, since (it seems to me) that the Newman coins carried a large premium for the Newman pedigree, but such is the coin business.

 

Correct. They could have been submitted raw. And if the submitters wanted the Newman name on the labels, it could probably be accomplished by providing copies of purchase invoices and/or suitable matching images of the coins.

 

So why would someone who wanted one of these coins in a PCGS holder, crack them out of the NGC holder and submit them raw, while at the same time, sending in documentation proving its provenance? Wouldn't it just be easier to submit for a crossover, leaving it in the holder.

 

I understand my question is more a curiosity and you can't possibly answer for someone else. I'm just kind of scratching my head as to why they would do it in that manner. Did they think they had a better chance of an upgrade outside the NGC holder? If yes, then wouldn't PCGS be able to reference the original grade on the invoice that was provided to prove provenance? I'm guessing the grader of the coin wouldn't have access to the HA invoice and that may be why they did it.

 

This method of getting it in a PCGS holder just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

I believe that chances for upgrades would be grater for coins submitted out of their NGC holders.

 

And the submitter could try to get the "Newman" name added to the label at a later date, rather than at the time of grading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
numisport

numisport

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The answer to this riddle is not easy to understand. I do not agree but according to some cult like PCGS followers some coins are just not marketable in NGC holders. I'm ashamed that there is at least one major PCGS dealer that ascribes to this theory. It is sad but true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing