Do not clean your coins! From $250,000 to less than $10,000

[jpcienkus]

Pity this coin was polished. One thing that struck me as odd, was the fact that Julian just dropped the coin on his display case when handing it over to the interviewer.

 

I understand this coin will never be the same, but he claimed he wanted to get around $10K out of the coin. I don't know about anyone else, I'd treat it with a little more respect than that.

[WoodenJefferson]

I do not think 'man handling' the gold coin could do worse damage than already been applied, the only thing left is the melt values and a slight intrinsic value for that date minted.

 

And to maybe put some perspective into a dealers thoughts, why sell a whole bunch of coins at margin when all you really need to do is sell a few at a greater profit?

[MarkFeld]

I have been told by someone who is familiar with the NGC and PCGS grading submission policies, that as of at least a few years ago, NGC no longer encapsulates coins which they deem to have been "altered" but that PCGS still does encapsulate such coins.

[jom]

Until the coin has been certified as "genuine" it's worth about bullion value to me. If neither TPG wants the liability then it's best to stay away.

 

Mark: I had no idea NGC stopped certifying "altered" pieces. Do you think it might be they simple don't want the liability of trying to certify an altered coin because they might miss that it's actually a fake?

 

jom

[johnny9434]

major bummer

[MarkFeld]

Until the coin has been certified as "genuine" it's worth about bullion value to me. If neither TPG wants the liability then it's best to stay away.

 

Mark: I had no idea NGC stopped certifying "altered" pieces. Do you think it might be they simple don't want the liability of trying to certify an altered coin because they might miss that it's actually a fake?

 

jom

 

I'm not sure of NGC's reason. I wouldn't think there would be that many coins which would cause them to worry about liability issues.

[bstrauss3]

41 hours to go and the bid is over $5K

 

 

Crazy...

[mumu]

41 hours to go and the bid is over $5K

 

 

Crazy...

 

Free shipping though.

[Walkerfan]

41 hours to go and the bid is over $5K

 

 

Crazy...

 

Free shipping though.

 

Bid high and bid often!

[rrantique]

41 hours to go and the bid is over $5K

 

 

Crazy...

 

Free shipping though.

 

Bid high and bid often!

 

Wow it's really PL now.

[mumu]

I sat here imagining if it were me or some of the other disrespected members listing this coin in this exact fashion, the guys that white knight to this sellers defense every time someone mentions his 4x price guide prices for damaged coins he "disagrees with". The up roar and auction reporting about deceptive selling techniques would break a record.

 

I posted a PL peace dollar as graded by an accepted TPG and agreed with by several members until I owned it, and I literally got death threats about the coin ATS. And when I made others aware of the PMs, I was the bad guy. And I wasn't even trying to sell the coin, just showing a newp.

 

Meanwhile this guy gets a pass on this turd that someone is about to pay at least 4000$ too much for. Funny stuff..

[MarkFeld]

I sat here imagining if it were me or some of the other disrespected members listing this coin in this exact fashion, the guys that white knight to this sellers defense every time someone mentions his 4x price guide prices for damaged coins he "disagrees with". The up roar and auction reporting about deceptive selling techniques would break a record.

 

I posted a PL peace dollar as graded by an accepted TPG and agreed with by several members until I owned it, and I literally got death threats about the coin ATS. And when I made others aware of the PMs, I was the bad guy. And I wasn't even trying to sell the coin, just showing a newp.

 

Meanwhile this guy gets a pass on this turd that someone is about to pay at least 4000$ too much for. Funny stuff..

 

There have been a number of negative comments about the seller, the coin and the listing in this thread. And the listing has been reported to EBay.

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

[Six Mile Rick]

I don't believe that is the same coin.

 

In the obverse picture of the NGC slab coin;

 

The star at the top of her LIBERTY crown/cap is almost touching the 2'nd bead. The cap tip seems to fit close to the 2 points of the star top center.

Her hair bun is almost touching the star above it.

 

The polished coin has plenty of space at both stars as the profile is a little lower and forward just a bit.

 

Unless I am seeing it wrong.

[physics-fan3.14]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

[MarkFeld]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

 

It was days ago.

 

His reply was : "This coin has never been circulated, so it is uncirculated. There is ample information included with this auction and I do offer a 14 day return privilege. Many thanx for your thoughts. Did you look at it at the FUN show?"

 

To which I replied "It's missing design detail, from whatever has be done to it. So it does not qualify as Unc. The fact that you offer a return privilege, and other information is a separate matter and does not make it accurate to label it Unc."

 

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I've never seen a polished or whizzed coin graded as Unc. by the four grading services that ebay accepts.

 

Apparently someone deleted the certification on the coin.

 

NGC Cert: 1828871-001

Date/Info: 1850

Denomination: $20

Grade: DELETED

 

NGC Price Guide: N/A

NGC Census: N/A

NGC Coin Explorer: N/A

[CaptHenway]

Same coin. Look at the obverse rim nick at 9 o'clock.

 

I have met insufficiently_thoughtful_persons almost as big as the previous owner of this coin. Possibly bigger. They are out there.

 

"Uncirculated" is a vague term. You can take a coin out of a mint-sewn bag, drill a hole in it, and it has still "never circulated," which is what "un-circulated" literally means. "Mint State" should preclude such post-mint damage, but I have seen coins called "Mint State-Damaged."

 

TD

 

 

[CaptHenway]

I see that I cannot "ID" the "iots" without the censor program kicking in.

Sigh.

[coinman_23885]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

 

It was days ago.

 

His reply was : "This coin has never been circulated, so it is uncirculated. There is ample information included with this auction and I do offer a 14 day return privilege. Many thanx for your thoughts. Did you look at it at the FUN show?"

 

To which I replied "It's missing design detail, from whatever has be done to it. So it does not qualify as Unc. The fact that you offer a return privilege, and other information is a separate matter and does not make it accurate to label it Unc."

 

 

This is yet another example of why I think the PNG is a worthless organization. The PNG does not actively police its members, and has no listed process I can find on its website for the submission of complaints. What exactly, then, is the role of the PNG? It is beginning to look like nothing more than a numismatic fraternity. The $100k Kennedy sale was also overlooked despite media reports that one of the sellers hired actors to overplay the coin's value and desirability, which could have arguably influenced the buyer.

 

I think that maybe it is time for more outspoken members of the community (i.e. Laura and others) to step up and put pressure on the ANA and PNG to do a better job of regulating their members. So far both appear completely worthless. I am beginning to think that large dealers that hide behind supposed "credentials" are a bigger threat to this hobby than coin doctors and grade inflation.

 

For legal purposes, all of my criticisms and other statements are made as matters of opinion and are not represented as fact.

[Nutmeg Coin]

As a lawyer you probably know options when someone is defrauded; but someone would have to have a sufficient grievance and have legal standing. Probably that would be the only way for management at PNG to take disciplinary action; after someone has achieved a judgement in the courts, and most in numismatics hate to have problems go that far and try to resolve them first. From time to time dealers are kicked out of the ANA and it has probably happened to a dealer or two with the PNG--didn't Bill Dominick get in trouble for peddling Accugrade coins as a PNG dealer?

[coinman_23885]

Lawsuits and lawyers are not the answer to the hobby's problems and should be reserved for extreme circumstances and fraud. The hobby must work to regulate itself and to promote fairness, integrity, and other certain traits among dealers whom collectors trust the most. You cannot litigate everything and in many instances, it isn't worth the resources. There are also several grey areas in numismatics. This is supposedly why the PNG and its Code of Ethics (which provide for binding arbitration on its members with the final say on all matters) exists, but so far it appears to be all bark and no bite in my humble opinion. When the PNG and similar organizations start to follow through or at least stop holding themselves out as a "police force" or organization of trustworthy dealers, then the numismatic community will be better off IMHO.

 

These comments are meant generally, and I am not targeting any one member or transaction in this post.

 

Edited: I cannot find any process on its website for the submission of complaints by collectors and other hobbyists. Indeed, in the one instance where I thought a member did commit outright fraud (not Julian), the PNG never responded to my message inquiring as to the process needed to file a complaint.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Criminal convictions disqualify people from being PNG members, or NGC or PCGS dealers, I'm not sure whether they check up from time to time on the members on that. Also $100K minimum inventory, etc. used to be a member dealer standard; again, not sure if that is enforced. Usually violations are pretty egregious before a member is ousted.

[coinman_23885]

Criminal convictions disqualify people from being PNG members, or NGC or PCGS dealers, I'm not sure whether they check up from time to time on the members on that. Also $100K minimum inventory, etc. used to be a member dealer standard; again, not sure if that is enforced. Usually violations are pretty egregious before a member is ousted.

 

The vast majority of the cases, if actionable at all, would be civil. It would take extreme and egregious conduct to even merit criminal prosecution. On the other hand, law and normal moral conceptions notwithstanding, the PNG does impose requirements that its members adhere to a code of conduct and code of ethics. This would settle many of the grey areas; however, unfortunately, I do not believe that the PNG is serious at all or (1) it would take at least a little initiative in policing its members and following up on their conduct and (2) have a clearly articulated complaint process that is accessible for collectors, dealers, and others who may have dealings with a PNG member so that misconduct (as defined under PNG regulations) does receive attention and action.

 

In any event, this is the end of my rant. I'm sorry for diverting the thread.

[jpcienkus]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

 

It was days ago.

 

His reply was : "This coin has never been circulated, so it is uncirculated. There is ample information included with this auction and I do offer a 14 day return privilege. Many thanx for your thoughts. Did you look at it at the FUN show?"

 

To which I replied "It's missing design detail, from whatever has be done to it. So it does not qualify as Unc. The fact that you offer a return privilege, and other information is a separate matter and does not make it accurate to label it Unc."

 

 

This is yet another example of why I think the PNG is a worthless organization. The PNG does not actively police its members, and has no listed process I can find on its website for the submission of complaints. What exactly, then, is the role of the PNG? It is beginning to look like nothing more than a numismatic fraternity. The $100k Kennedy sale was also overlooked despite media reports that one of the sellers hired actors to overplay the coin's value and desirability, which could have arguably influenced the buyer.

 

I think that maybe it is time for more outspoken members of the community (i.e. Laura and others) to step up and put pressure on the ANA and PNG to do a better job of regulating their members. So far both appear completely worthless. I am beginning to think that large dealers that hide behind supposed "credentials" are a bigger threat to this hobby than coin doctors and grade inflation.

 

For legal purposes, all of my criticisms and other statements are made as matters of opinion and are not represented as fact.

 

I can readily think of another famous Numismatist (published and PNG member) who I feel also stretches things quite a bit to justify his typically high price points. I've written to him about one particular auction and we had a kind debate.

 

I agree with you on your assertion.

[mumu]

I

 

There have been a number of negative comments about the seller, the coin and the listing in this thread. And the listing has been reported to EBay.

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

Well good on you for going after it this time. But he has been defended many times for things including by yourself. He has been on that line for a long time now.

 

Whats the deal with the pictures of the slab in that auvtion BTW. Its not the actual slabs, its like a scan cut out paper or something? Or is that the coin sitting on top of the label? Either way they don't even have the actual sab in the pics to go with the fabulous story.

[bstrauss3]

Final sale price with something a little over 6K

[coinman_23885]

How much of the final price do you all think is attributable to the story and how much is attributable to the description?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Some collector must have believed it was worth that, but there are many people who collect who have zero understanding of how a given coin would speak of a particular era. It reminds me of this Twilight Zone episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_After_Hours

 

A polished coin like that after over 150 years of careful protective security would not IMO attract dealers or serious collectors to it unless they could flip it at a profit, buying at a marginal price. A solid original XF would be preferable. Polished coins are destroyed in terms of numismatic value, bearing the same relation as mannequins are to live people.

[mumu]

I bet the new owner feels he can improve it.

[physics-fan3.14]

I bet the new owner feels he can improve it.

 

I bet the new owner bought the story, hook line and sinker.