Do not clean your coins! From $250,000 to less than $10,000

[Julian]

Looks to me like it was polished with a high power buffer. PF3.14, That's why the high points are like you described. Metal only gets that way from a high speed buffer. Not to imply that this story isn't true, but if Julian didn't crack it himself and "alter the surface" (not to imply he did) but how would he know without question that it's the same coin as the 64PL? It looks worked to a point where it's beyond recognition to me.

 

There is flaw on the reverse of the coin that is apparent on the photo and the coin.

[Julian]

The interviewee strikes me as dishonest and reminds me a lot of a used car salesman. My opinion was developed long before seeing this interview/story. This auction and the "story" behind this piece just further my distrust and dislike of him.

 

I'm struggling to see how he is able to tie the ruined piece to the 64PL.

 

Doesn't NGC send sketchy coins back in an "Unverifiable Authenticity" slab? His explanation of NGC sending it back is off too. You'd think he'd remember the reasoning behind NGC sending it back without slabbing it. Too fishy for me.

 

I have been dealing in coins for over 50 years and I am deeply offended by your assertion that I am dishonest. The story is absolutely true in every regard. Please see an earlier response how the coin is absolutely the same.

[Julian]

The interviewee strikes me as dishonest and reminds me a lot of a used car salesman. My opinion was developed long before seeing this interview/story. This auction and the "story" behind this piece just further my distrust and dislike of him.

 

I'm struggling to see how he is able to tie the ruined piece to the 64PL.

 

Doesn't NGC send sketchy coins back in an "Unverifiable Authenticity" slab? His explanation of NGC sending it back is off too. You'd think he'd remember the reasoning behind NGC sending it back without slabbing it. Too fishy for me.

 

I have been dealing in coins for over 50 years and I am deeply offended by your assertion that I am dishonest. The story is absolutely true in every regard. Please see an earlier response how the coin is absolutely the same.

Therefore it's possible that the coin was resubmitted between, say, 2005 and 2010, which would have been when they were still body bagging coins.

 

I also understood that Julian knew the owner before he bought the coin, saw the coin when the owner first bought it and has known the owner ever since, so unless the owner is the one trying to pass off a second coin as the first coin (which I think Julian would be able to detect), Julian would know that it's the same coin.

 

Julian's response was equivocal; listen around 1:32-1:40 where he states that he was "almost certain" that the client showed it to him in the NGC MS64PL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he has seen several show stoppers and he may genuinely have forgotten (although I think this one would stick out in one's mind as a 1850s PL). Nevertheless, if you aren't certain that you actually saw the coin, I believe you are even less likely to be able to remember the minutiae that would be required to trace the coin back and identify it as the former MS64 PL given the massive alterations and lack of high quality images to look for diagnostics. And it certainly isn't something that I would personally stake my professional reputation on (i.e. unsupported hearsay of an interested/potentially biased client) and even include photos suggesting that it is the same coin.

 

As such, I vehemently disagree with his eBay listing. Given that he is "almost certain" but not actually completely "certain" that his client showed it to him, it seems that he is relying on hearsay when he makes the following declaration in his eBay listing :

 

This coin was previously encapsulated by NGC until it was broken out of the holder and the surfaces were altered. We don't know exactly what was done to it. This coin used to be one of the very finest known examples of the 1850 Liberty Double Eagle, and could have been worth $250,000 today if it were in it's original condition. This may be the greatest numismatic tragedy I've ever seen.

 

The moral of the story is, don't clean your coins unless you know exactly what you're doing!!

 

This listing will include the original bill of sale from Blanchard and pictures of the original slab.

 

I am also bothered that the coin is listed as uncirculated when it most clearly is not. It bothers me even more that the original slab photos with a numerical grade are there. If his argument was that the coin was uncirculated at some point, well, then so is every other coin ever made and the term would lose all meaning.

 

For legal purposes, I am not accusing anyone of impropriety or wrongdoing, but the listing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth especially with the unqualified text from the listing reproduced above notwithstanding his oral admission in the video.

 

This part of the conversation also struck me as odd. He went from "almost certain he saw the coin" to detailing very specific conversations back and for the with the owner describing trying to talk him out of improving it.

 

Coin was never circulated. The previous owner has been trying to sell it for over 10 years and is local DC area resident.

[Julian]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

 

I never received a message thru EB. Mark has or can easily find my email address.

[Julian]

 

I also wrote to Julian through EBay and told him it was misleading and inaccurate to describe the coin as "unc.".

 

I'm very curious to hear how Julian responds. This is only one example of the entire way he does business, however.

 

It was days ago.

 

His reply was : "This coin has never been circulated, so it is uncirculated. There is ample information included with this auction and I do offer a 14 day return privilege. Many thanx for your thoughts. Did you look at it at the FUN show?"

 

To which I replied "It's missing design detail, from whatever has be done to it. So it does not qualify as Unc. The fact that you offer a return privilege, and other information is a separate matter and does not make it accurate to label it Unc."

 

I do remember this exchange. The coin has never been circulated.

 

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The interviewee strikes me as dishonest and reminds me a lot of a used car salesman. My opinion was developed long before seeing this interview/story. This auction and the "story" behind this piece just further my distrust and dislike of him.

 

I'm struggling to see how he is able to tie the ruined piece to the 64PL.

 

Doesn't NGC send sketchy coins back in an "Unverifiable Authenticity" slab? His explanation of NGC sending it back is off too. You'd think he'd remember the reasoning behind NGC sending it back without slabbing it. Too fishy for me.

 

I have been dealing in coins for over 50 years and I am deeply offended by your assertion that I am dishonest. The story is absolutely true in every regard. Please see an earlier response how the coin is absolutely the same.

Therefore it's possible that the coin was resubmitted between, say, 2005 and 2010, which would have been when they were still body bagging coins.

 

I also understood that Julian knew the owner before he bought the coin, saw the coin when the owner first bought it and has known the owner ever since, so unless the owner is the one trying to pass off a second coin as the first coin (which I think Julian would be able to detect), Julian would know that it's the same coin.

 

Julian's response was equivocal; listen around 1:32-1:40 where he states that he was "almost certain" that the client showed it to him in the NGC MS64PL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he has seen several show stoppers and he may genuinely have forgotten (although I think this one would stick out in one's mind as a 1850s PL). Nevertheless, if you aren't certain that you actually saw the coin, I believe you are even less likely to be able to remember the minutiae that would be required to trace the coin back and identify it as the former MS64 PL given the massive alterations and lack of high quality images to look for diagnostics. And it certainly isn't something that I would personally stake my professional reputation on (i.e. unsupported hearsay of an interested/potentially biased client) and even include photos suggesting that it is the same coin.

 

As such, I vehemently disagree with his eBay listing. Given that he is "almost certain" but not actually completely "certain" that his client showed it to him, it seems that he is relying on hearsay when he makes the following declaration in his eBay listing :

 

This coin was previously encapsulated by NGC until it was broken out of the holder and the surfaces were altered. We don't know exactly what was done to it. This coin used to be one of the very finest known examples of the 1850 Liberty Double Eagle, and could have been worth $250,000 today if it were in it's original condition. This may be the greatest numismatic tragedy I've ever seen.

 

The moral of the story is, don't clean your coins unless you know exactly what you're doing!!

 

This listing will include the original bill of sale from Blanchard and pictures of the original slab.

 

I am also bothered that the coin is listed as uncirculated when it most clearly is not. It bothers me even more that the original slab photos with a numerical grade are there. If his argument was that the coin was uncirculated at some point, well, then so is every other coin ever made and the term would lose all meaning.

 

For legal purposes, I am not accusing anyone of impropriety or wrongdoing, but the listing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth especially with the unqualified text from the listing reproduced above notwithstanding his oral admission in the video.

 

This part of the conversation also struck me as odd. He went from "almost certain he saw the coin" to detailing very specific conversations back and for the with the owner describing trying to talk him out of improving it.

 

Coin was never circulated. The previous owner has been trying to sell it for over 10 years and is local DC area resident.

 

what would you suggest as proper wording and description of an altered coin that clearly has seen better days?

 

How about "altered coin that was previously a non-circulated coin" ? whether the owner is a local dc resident, and by extension within a very short travel distance to your place of business does nothing to set the minds at ease concerning the description of the coin and the not illogical conclusion of a less than honorable description of the coin in order to increase the chances of a sale. better that you had not been involved in order to avoid any thoughts of personal impropriety. i am sure you would know this, with the years of dealing with the public and collectors. some coin deals are best not pursued, when self honor is a risk.

[Julian]

Once the auction has started, the title cannot be changed. I started the auction at 99 cents. Would you have had me stop the auction and change the wording?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Once the auction has started, the title cannot be changed. I started the auction at 99 cents. Would you have had me stop the auction and change the wording?

 

yes, but better that it be worded properly before starting, or the optimal solution of not risking an appearance of impropriety. we all make innocent judgement errors, but when we are known to be an expert in a certain area, we are held to a higher standard and the risk is greater.

[coinman_23885]

Once the auction has started, the title cannot be changed. I started the auction at 99 cents. Would you have had me stop the auction and change the wording?

 

Yes.

 

Edited to add: P.S. Thank you for dropping by to discuss the listing. On another note, what flaw are you referring to on the reverse?

[Julian]

There is a small flaw in the field to the right of the Eagle on the reverse.

[mumu]

There is a small flaw in the field to the right of the Eagle on the reverse.

 

Why didn't the owner improve it before selling it?

[AHFreak]

There is a small flaw in the field to the right of the Eagle on the reverse.

 

Why didn't the owner improve it before selling it?

 

[rrantique]

There is a small flaw in the field to the right of the Eagle on the reverse.

 

Why didn't the owner improve it before selling it?

 

 

Maybe his Dremel tool broke.

[RWB]

Nearly all professional coin dealers have seen the results of collector "improvements." Somehow, the message does not get through to owners to leave the coins alone...So, they do really stupid things - as Julien was attempting to explain in the video and posts. (The personal attacks and allegations of dishonesty were completely inappropriate, though.)

 

The worst part of this is destruction of a small bit of American history by someone with more money than good sense (or "cents"). People are the temporary custodians of rare coins, as they are of the entire planet. Our responsibility is to understand and pass forward these things unscathed by ignorance or ego.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Nearly all professional coin dealers have seen the results of collector "improvements." Somehow, the message does not get through to owners to leave the coins alone...So, they do really stupid things - as Julien was attempting to explain in the video and posts. (The personal attacks and allegations of dishonesty were completely inappropriate, though.)

 

The worst part of this is destruction of a small bit of American history by someone with more money than good sense (or "cents"). People are the temporary custodians of rare coins, as they are of the entire planet. Our responsibility is to understand and pass forward these things unscathed by ignorance or ego.

 

do you agree that the marketing message by mr. julian concerning the coin in discussion could have been approved upon, to a degree that any suggestion of impropriety could have been avoided? is this an issue that a seasoned collector/dealer would be attuned to and know to avoid (invite) integrity questions?

[RWB]

Mr.M: Marketing is very confusing to me, and I rarely respond to it, so I really have no thoughts on your question.

[physics-fan3.14]

The interviewee strikes me as dishonest and reminds me a lot of a used car salesman. My opinion was developed long before seeing this interview/story. This auction and the "story" behind this piece just further my distrust and dislike of him.

 

I'm struggling to see how he is able to tie the ruined piece to the 64PL.

 

Doesn't NGC send sketchy coins back in an "Unverifiable Authenticity" slab? His explanation of NGC sending it back is off too. You'd think he'd remember the reasoning behind NGC sending it back without slabbing it. Too fishy for me.

 

I have been dealing in coins for over 50 years and I am deeply offended by your assertion that I am dishonest. The story is absolutely true in every regard. Please see an earlier response how the coin is absolutely the same.

 

And I am deeply offended at your manipulation of the truth and questionable practices.

 

So, I guess we are even.

[Nutmeg Coin]

If this were the "other" chat and bulletin board, the dealer in question and allies would have tried to get the "offending" parties banned as one of the board of experts members. I try to get any coin over a reasonable sum of money certified, so at least there are experts weighing in on authenticity, condition, etc..

 

I don't know what the money result difference would have been between "Unc. details" and "AU details" polished or whizzed. NGC has a discussion of surface problems:

 

. https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/details-grading/

 

It does look like "Unc. details" whizzed is a category: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Unc.+details+whizzed

[physics-fan3.14]

UNC details, whizzed, is definitely a grade/category. However, with the amount of detail missing from the high points of the coin in question, no self-respecting company would call that UNC.

[JIM F.]

Late to this thread.  Is a post-improved/ruined pic of the $20 in its TPG holder out there anywhere, or if a forum member has one perhaps they can post it.  The old Ebay sales link has gone dark.  After reading this thread it seems to me that having an affiliation with PMG means absolutely nothing.  Also, my life experience is that anyone who says "I have X years of experience" is usually attempting to cover up incompetence with such a hollow and meaningless statement.

Hopefully someone has a pic (or even better the actual Ebay listing) for the subject coin.

Thank You.

 

[numisport]

20 hours ago, JIM F. said:

Also, my life experience is that anyone who says "I have X years of experience" is usually attempting to cover up incompetence with such a hollow and meaningless statement.