How do you feel when you're the underbidder?

[RWB]

Most of the posters here and on PCGS bid in the occaional coin auction. The goal is to buy the coins bid on; but frequently we are outbid by a floor bidder or "the book."

 

How do you feel when you lose a lot by a small amount, or by a large sum?

 

(Question was prompted by my losing every lot I bid on in the Newman auctions -- every one, and most by very large amounts, too.)

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

Slightly to mildly irritated when I lose by just a small amount.

 

It's quite often that I'll lose an auction right at the last second to one bidder for less than a dollar. I mean, I understand how it works. If my maximum bid is $50 and there's only one other bidder who'll bid $100 or whatever, the final price will only go up by 50 cents. But it is pretty irritating to watch a coin sell for 50 cents more than your bid.

 

I'd actually like to see silent auctions on eBay.

[BillJones]

When it comes to auctions, I usually set a maximum amount that I'm willing to pay, and if I don't get the item, I view it with the attitude that "It was not meant to be." Usually I forget about it and move on to the next sale.

 

The only auction that sticks in my mind was an 1838-C $5 gold that Heritage sold a couple of years ago. The coin looked nice from the photos, but that was the trouble. I was bidding on photos which is always dangerous. At that time I was not a Heritage "Legacy Client" so there was no one available for me to get an honest assessment. I was the under bidder.

 

Since then the piece has had one of those "buyer is willing to sell" signs on it. I followed up on that, but got nowhere. I was told that the piece is not available, and did not get to the point of making a bid on it. It's still got the sign on it, however.

 

I too hate to lose lots for numbers like 50 cents. That's one of the reasons why I don't fool with eBay. The snipers can take their programs and shove them. I don't want to have anything to do with their petty games.

 

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

The snipers can take their programs and shove them.

I just did a search for "ebay sniping software". I had no clue how many different sniping programs are out there now.

[Walkerfan]

I'm a strong bidder, so I'm usually GLAD when I lose, as the high bidder often pays STUPID money.

 

I lost a 1916-S WLH PCGS MS 63 in 2005 by a few bucks----final hammer was like 2415. It was the record price for 9 years and just fell, recently. To this day: I'm GLAD that I didn't win that coin, as I have a MUCH, MUCH better MS 64, now, for just a bit more money.

 

Same goes for a 1920 PCGS MS 64 piece that sold for nearly 2000 (a dreaded little green bean drove it up!!)---glad once again as I was the under-bidder at 1850 and likewise have a better example, now.

 

I paid an obscene amount for my 1927-S because I HAD to have it----I don't really regret it, though, as that coin will never be replaced.

 

The only coin I regret losing was a 1917 S Rev. fully original PCGS MS63. High bid was in the 2400-2500 neighborhood----it was a record price.

 

Bottom line---when I lose it's generally a good thing.

[BillJones]

There is another type of auction that is just about as aggravating as being outbid by 50 cents. That is the auction which is not an auction.

 

Recently I spotted a coin that is on my want list in an auction that is being conducted by what I would term as a well-known company. I opened an account with them and checked out their terms of sale. As usual it stated that some lots had minimum bids. That is perfectly okay with me and normal.

 

The lot that interested me was graded MS-60, and the coin was a "slider" (AU-58) IMO. It an "opening bid" on it of $3,300, which I took to be the house minimum. I bid $3,800. The site immediately came back with a bid of $6,999. After bidding the next increment plus the 17.5% buyers' fee, that pushed the lot to a number that was the full retail price and then some for an MS-60.

 

To me this is not an auction. This a retail operation that has its bidders paying retail prices without the return privileges that retail buyers get. In short the auction house holds all the cards, the bidders have very limited rights as consumers.

 

I sent them email, and got a snippy response. Needless say I am done with this auction firm for either buying or selling.

 

[Afterword]

When I first started collecting (a little over fifteen years ago), I was more anxious about winning than I was about losing. I would actually be relieved when I lost, but disappointed as well. It took somewhere around a year or two before that fear of winning was completely gone. After that, I would just be disappointed when I lost.

 

Now, even the disappointment is gone. There is always another auction and another item to bid on.

 

 

 

[brg5658]

...

 

I too hate to lose lots for numbers like 50 cents. That's one of the reasons why I don't fool with eBay. The snipers can take their programs and shove them. I don't want to have anything to do with their petty games.

...

 

 

It doesn't matter whether it was a snipe or not, you rarely know by how much you actually lost the auction -- as you can't know anything more than that the next bidder was willing to pay one increment more than you. The next bidders max bid is rarely (but is sometimes) known.

 

[BillJones]

...

 

I too hate to lose lots for numbers like 50 cents. That's one of the reasons why I don't fool with eBay. The snipers can take their programs and shove them. I don't want to have anything to do with their petty games.

...

 

 

It doesn't matter whether it was a snipe or not, you rarely know by how much you actually lost the auction -- as you can't know anything more than that the next bidder was willing to pay one increment more than you. The next bidders max bid is rarely (but is sometimes) known.

 

All of that is quite true, but at least I am beaten out by an increment of $500 or more, I don't have such hard feelings about it. Given all the trash the happens on eBay, including the fake sales, the shills, the counterfeits, the "generic photos" (not the piece you are bidding on) and the snipers, life is too short to have it ruined messing with that site to any great extent.

 

The last thing about on eBay was a lot of HO model train cars.

[BillJones]

(Question was prompted by my losing every lot I bid on in the Newman auctions -- every one, and most by very large amounts, too.)

 

You were probably just as well off losing all of those Newman auction bids. I lost some bids by as much as double my bid, after I had posted amounts that had been successful in other recent auctions. I'm talking about bids in the $5,000 neighborhood that were for more than double that.

 

I placed a few bids for some English hammer struck pennies (the REAL "dark side") that were well over the estimates and didn't get any of them. I came to the conclusion that there were too many collectors and speculators who were willing to pay for the Newman name, and that those sales were no place for the likes of me. I'm sure that there were some fair buys given on the coins that were offered, but to get them you had to be there to see the coins in person.

[johnny9434]

if i lose by what ever amount and its not at book then i dont feel as bad. i cant see paying over book for it. jmo

[BillJones]

if i lose by what ever amount and its not at book then i dont feel as bad. i cant see paying over book for it. jmo

 

It all depends upon what the item is. If it is commonly available, but by that I mean you are quite sure you will see another one within a year or less, there is not reason to pay more than "the book." If you know that it's rare, or if it is among the finest known in a widely collected classic series, "the book" might be based on educated guesses and therefore not as important.

 

For most collectors who don't buy coins that cost 5 figures or more, "the book" is usually a reasonable guide.

[Walkerfan]

The Newman Walkers AMAZE me. A 1916-D in a reholdered PCGS MS 63 CAC that realized $1,997.50 is being offered for $2,275

 

Also a 1940-S MS 65 with a GOLD CAC sticker was purchased for $1,880 and offered for $3500. The seller claims to have bid $5250 as their high bid.

 

I couldn't or wouldn't want to compete with that.

 

I am perfectly happy with my 1916-D 64 and my 1940-S 65, so those weren't coins that I needed anyway.

 

 

[jpcienkus]

Good question by the OP.

 

I'm still a newbie when it comes to collecting, but have been successful winning auctions on eBay (without sniper program) and at the big auction houses. I've also lost many, many more than I won.

 

I've been disappointed on occassion, losing by one bid increment, but in those cases, I bid what I thought was strong money and wasn't willing to go further. There have been other times that, like Bill mentioned earlier, I've posted my max and haven't lost sleep over it when I didn't win.

 

I don't have the funds to bid on those true rarities. I'm mostly bidding on condition rarities, so I know with patience, another will come along.

 

I was luck enough to win a couple Newman coins last fall. One was a nicely toned (not rainbow) 92 Columbian Exposition. I got it for around retail. The other coin I won in that auction was a 1935 Buffalo. I am burried in this coin, but thankfully, being under water in this coin isn't the same as others. I'll never get my money out of it. I wanted it because it was my mother's birth year and of all the 35's I looked at, it had the strongest strike. I also wanted the pedigree. In hand, it's a rather dull grey. So I was a little disappointed.

 

As I gain more experience in this hobby, I'm learning to leave disappointment behind when I lose because there will always be another coin that will interest me.

[mtnstyne]

I recently was the under bidder on a coin sold by one of the members here on eBay. The next week the coin was listed by the new owner for over twice what it sold for and I believe it's still listed at that price. I was disappointed to say the least and it always makes me think that 90% of coins auctioned are sold to speculators instead of collectors.

 

 

[e1cnr]

I am happy that I have the fortitude to set a max and stick to it. I do not want to get into an auction fervor and get into a bidding war with the other bidder.

 

The thing about being an underbidder, you never know how high the high bidder would have been willing to go (with the exception of eBay where a split auction increment indicates their max)

[michael]

How do you feel when you're the underbidder?

 

i love it as i bid my max and if the coin goes higher then good for the next bidder

 

as something always comes around the corner that is not only less money

but a better value to boot

[bsshog40]

I can't afford rare coins so the auctions/coins that I do bid on usually will come up again. I usually search past auctions to help determine the current prices and bid accordingly. I set my max bid that I will pay. If I lose, no biggie. I bid the same way on the next one. Eventually I win.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I can't afford rare coins so the auctions/coins that I do bid on usually will come up again. I usually search past auctions to help determine the current prices and bid accordingly. I set my max bid that I will pay. If I lose, no biggie. I bid the same way on the next one. Eventually I win.

 

My thoughts, exactly.

Get out of my head....

[brg5658]

...

 

I too hate to lose lots for numbers like 50 cents. That's one of the reasons why I don't fool with eBay. The snipers can take their programs and shove them. I don't want to have anything to do with their petty games.

...

 

 

It doesn't matter whether it was a snipe or not, you rarely know by how much you actually lost the auction -- as you can't know anything more than that the next bidder was willing to pay one increment more than you. The next bidders max bid is rarely (but is sometimes) known.

 

All of that is quite true, but at least I am beaten out by an increment of $500 or more, I don't have such hard feelings about it. Given all the trash the happens on eBay, including the fake sales, the shills, the counterfeits, the "generic photos" (not the piece you are bidding on) and the snipers, life is too short to have it ruined messing with that site to any great extent.

 

The last thing about on eBay was a lot of HO model train cars.

 

I definitely agree with you Bill --- BUT, there is no difference in setting a snipe on eBay and forgetting it than there is in my setting a snipe on Heritage. I put in my maximum bid for both, set it and forget it. If I win, so be it. If I lose -- well, then someone else wanted it more than me.

 

More often than not those "lost by an increment" type auctions are likely a blessing in disguise. If you let emotion get in the mix and were bidding real-time, you might regret that your slow small incremental pushes upward end up being a huge rip-off when viewed cumulatively!

 

And, yes, just so you know -- There IS software for sniping on Heritage -- and I think more people use it than you'd like to know.

 

 

[brg5658]

if i lose by what ever amount and its not at book then i dont feel as bad. i cant see paying over book for it. jmo

 

It all depends upon what the item is. If it is commonly available, but by that I mean you are quite sure you will see another one within a year or less, there is not reason to pay more than "the book." If you know that it's rare, or if it is among the finest known in a widely collected classic series, "the book" might be based on educated guesses and therefore not as important.

 

For most collectors who don't buy coins that cost 5 figures or more, "the book" is usually a reasonable guide.

 

Most of the stuff I collect is "esoteric" in that a "book price" doesn't even necessarily exist. For example, Conder tokens have gone up considerably in price over the past 5-7 years. There isn't really a price guide of any kind, but for super nice material (I mean, MS65+) -- it doesn't matter if it's listed as "common" or "rare" -- if you want it you better be willing to put in a stiff bid. Same goes for so-called-dollars, and other types of medals and tokens.

 

Of course, you (Bill) are aware of this as you have a phenomenal collection of exonumia!!

[BillJones]

Pricing exonumia is part experience, reviewing auction results and "seat of the pants." Some things are worth something to me because of their historical importance, and I don't care if they are common or rare. There are some slogan pieces that are common which I value higher than some of the rarities that show just a face, name and birth date.

 

Of course when you combine rarity and historical importance, that's when I've paid the most. The most expensive piece I own is a 1905 Theodore Roosevelt inaugural medal designed by St. Gaudens. Next to that is a Libertas Americana medal.

[Houston Investor]

It does not bother me as I am looking for deals. I research the value and bid what works for me.

 

There is a saying heard around the bourse floor: He who won at auction paid the highest price of anyone in the country.

[Catbert]

Generally, my reaction is relief since, for what I collect, there will always be another stimulating coin at a better price!

[wdrob]

 

I just sold a coin through an auction that a unnamed active user here was beat out by .01 - Yes that is one penny.

 

Now why he bid an even ex; $100.00 instead of $101.76 or so, I have no idea.

 

Just one penny.

 

Sorry you missed that one my friend. I would have liked for you to have had it.

 

 

[World Colonial]

My primary problem (other than not having the money to buy everything I want) is that i cannot inspect the coins in person and have no one to represent me because it isn't worth their time. None of these coins are graded.

 

To use a few recent examples, I was outbid on Sincona lot 1076 by 100 CHF on an 1893 Bolivia Boliviano. They graded it "almost XF" and my grade is an AU-53 or AU-55. But I didn't want to buy a "details" coin and couldn't get them to give me a detailed description. Its potentially a coin I will either never see again or only at "stupid" money.

 

Another was a 1759 Guatemala 1/2R which Heritage recently sold ungraded. Their grade was a VF but I think the coin was actually either AU or MS; it was essentially as struck for a series which only has terrible strikes. I probably should have just bought it because I suspect I will never see another one either. I did not because no one would reply to my emails or return my call.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I rarely bid at auction and refuse to get caught up in a bidding war. Once I put in a maximum bid, that is usually it. It is much easier to buy directly from dealers and see what their best price is. But I understand auction buyers at HA can do quite well with many lots selling below market price.

[World Colonial]

I prefer to compete against dealers rather than buy from them. Many of the coins I see are bought from auctions first (frequently ungraded) and then I see them at absurd prices later. But then, these are all US coins.

 

On occasion, I do not mind having the dealer take the risk of the "no grade" and then pay them their profit, but it will depend upon how much and the coin.