NGC or PCGS

[Tradedollarnut]

I have now seen TDN defend a sticker on a slab that a coin is in to the death, while claiming that strike on a coin doesn't matter. I'm sorry but that is not coin collecting. Most expensive coin of all time or not.

 

1) CAC was created to stop greed, not because of greed. That is why I defend CAC to the death. They make small mistakes now and then but they stand behind what they sticker. YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE INDUSTRY that made CAC necessary. Those who say CAC doesn't matter to them because they collect low value coins are somewhat correct - but at the same time stopping what was going on is valuable to all.

 

2) I have never claimed strike doesn't matter. Strike is no longer the grade limiter that it once was but is now just a net grade factor like wear and marks.

 

Just because you disagree doesn't make it "not coin collecting"

 

But enough nattering nabobs of negativity for me. I will bid you all adios and let you enjoy your collections without the pain of dealing with information you don't wish to hear. Enjoy.

[Keigwin]

I like coins, no matter what the holder. And I will buy regardless. But I do know that grading standards are different between NGC and PCGS for the series I collect...bust halves and early copper.

 

To me, that doesn't make one grading service better than the other. Just different. I figure it's better to understand the difference than to blindly swear allegiance to one or the other.

Lance.

[TonerGuy]

YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE INDUSTRY that made CAC necessary.

 

What was going on ?

[GoldFinger1969]

NGC's grading for the most part is fine - they grade to their own standard and most of the bell curve of that standard [with a few exceptions in the high end] overlaps most of the bell curve of PCGS's. What skews the AVAILABLE coins in NGC holders is the market dynamics of the crossover game. If ya all can't see that or choose to ignore it then that's fine - I don't need the insults from the yahoos in this place.

 

In terms of the more popular coins -- gold Saint Gaudens or Liberty's, Morgan Silver Dollars -- do you see a difference between NGC and PCGS that is MATERIAL ?

 

Besides, if you knew one of the real reasons that CAC was started, half of you would have a brain seizure and never recover. It just doesn't fit with your myopic view of the numismatic world

 

Don't leave us hanging, tell us......

 

BTW, what is ATS

[Kurtdog]

No, it doesn't mean Artificially Toned Saints. Actually, it's a reference to PCGS. When they use it over there, it's a reference to over here. It depends on where you are, over here or over there. Across The Street. Rather clever, huh?

[mumu]

I have now seen TDN defend a sticker on a slab that a coin is in to the death, while claiming that strike on a coin doesn't matter. I'm sorry but that is not coin collecting. Most expensive coin of all time or not.

 

1) CAC was created to stop greed, not because of greed. That is why I defend CAC to the death. They make small mistakes now and then but they stand behind what they sticker. YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE INDUSTRY that made CAC necessary. Those who say CAC doesn't matter to them because they collect low value coins are somewhat correct - but at the same time stopping what was going on is valuable to all.

 

2) I have never claimed strike doesn't matter. Strike is no longer the grade limiter that it once was but is now just a net grade factor like wear and marks.

 

Just because you disagree doesn't make it "not coin collecting"

 

But enough nattering nabobs of negativity for me. I will bid you all adios and let you enjoy your collections without the pain of dealing with information you don't wish to hear. Enjoy.

 

"Strike means NOTHING." - tradedollarnut #6416592 - 02/19/13 01:49 AM

 

There was another post you made saying something along the lines of people and myself caring too much about strike. Again, maybe the differences in strike in the thin air you play in are a more subtle deviation from each other. But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

[MarkFeld]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

[Raisethis2]

 

 

I couldn't agree more Mark.

 

People like yourself and Trade Dollar Nut operate at a level in this hobby/business I'll never reach, but that doesn't mean I can't learn a few things about coins at that level to use in my own little world. Pointing out every little inconsistency in someones words doesn't help the cause, it just clouds the issues and gets everyone else off track.

 

Every word ever spoken provides an option to the reader, take it or leave it. Like everything else in life we should take in what's available and use that to form our own opinions. When we differ that's an opportunity to ask questions. That's how we all learn.

[TonerGuy]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

Agreed...

 

I would love for him to answer the question I posted above. I really want to know what was going on that created the need for CAC. What is the greed he speaks of ?

 

I have been around the industry long enough to understand that the little guys "with chips on their shoulder" dont get the insider information. This is definitely a hobby of dealers vs. collectors.

 

So yes when a dealer wants to share inside information I want to hear it....

[jpcienkus]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

Agreed...

 

I would love for him to answer the question I posted above. I really want to know what was going on that created the need for CAC. What is the greed he speaks of ?

 

I have been around the industry long enough to understand that the little guys "with chips on their shoulder" dont get the insider information. This is definitely a hobby of dealers vs. collectors.

 

So yes when a dealer wants to share inside information I want to hear it....

 

+1

[MarkFeld]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

Agreed...

 

I would love for him to answer the question I posted above. I really want to know what was going on that created the need for CAC. What is the greed he speaks of ?

 

I have been around the industry long enough to understand that the little guys "with chips on their shoulder" dont get the insider information. This is definitely a hobby of dealers vs. collectors.

 

So yes when a dealer wants to share inside information I want to hear it....

 

I'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

[Walkerfan]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

Agreed...

 

I would love for him to answer the question I posted above. I really want to know what was going on that created the need for CAC. What is the greed he speaks of ?

 

I have been around the industry long enough to understand that the little guys "with chips on their shoulder" dont get the insider information. This is definitely a hobby of dealers vs. collectors.

 

So yes when a dealer wants to share inside information I want to hear it....

 

I'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

 

Mark---I agree with you 100% concerning the coin doctoring and grade-flation theory---I think you are RIGHT ON in your 'guess'.

 

Also, I too, was sad to see this thread deteriorate, as many here have a lot to offer.

 

Egos aside---I for one appreciate TDN's input, as well as the others involved here.

 

 

[jom]

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

It is unfortunate that discussion of grading and toning always get into these "funks". The coin collecting community (online especially) seems to be hyper sensitive to those subjects for whatever reason.

 

I would also like to know some of what happened before CACs creation. If it was the AT issue and I find it fascinating that it took THAT long (circa 2006) when I had heard of AT'd coins in TPG holders back in the mid-90s.

 

jom

[EVillageProwler]

Aye, Mark.

 

Even when I feel confident about a coin, or series, I will not think it wrong to get a second opinion. And, what better opinion than from someone whose expertise AND objectivity/integrity I trust.

 

I can get my trusted expert opinion for free due to friendships and other connections (I've no choice because I do dark side now where raw is still common). But for those who don't have access to free trusted expertise, why not see the value of paid services? CAC is built on great expertise, and backs that up with published bids in case they make a mistake or someone just wants to sell.

 

Don't want to use CAC? Ok, it's a free market. But why so much negativity and denial?

 

As for the NGC vs PCGS argument, why fight with each other? It's a free market, and it's the market participants that are making things behave however they behave. It's not like TDN or brg##### can actually make markets. So why all this negativity and denial?

 

I've seen it claim by some who don't need TPG or CAC or any other advise because he or she is good enough to go it alone. Great. But why try to bully others into your point of view? Why so much vitriol?

 

Got Internet muscles?

 

EVP

[jom]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

[e1cnr]

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

It is unfortunate that discussion of grading and toning always get into these "funks". The coin collecting community (online especially) seems to be hyper sensitive to those subjects for whatever reason.

 

I would also like to know some of what happened before CACs creation. If it was the AT issue and I find it fascinating that it took THAT long (circa 2006) when I had heard of AT'd coins in TPG holders back in the mid-90s.

 

jom

 

I do not think AT is as great of a threat as actual doctoring and subsequent turning in holder. There are few of us who can detect a recently well done putty job, lasering on proofs, tooled, altered surfaces and subsequent toning to cover the work.The TPGs guarantee to grade the coin the same (unless the change is so great even a poor grader can detect the problem), makes an unbiased service like CAC an extra insurance on 'valuable coins'. Everyone has a different level of tolerance in what they consider a valuable coin. For some it may be $50,000 for others it may be $50, before the loss of half the value would bug them.

 

I like TDNs posts, although I admit making an occasional jab. I do miss Laura's posts as well, although it took much less for her to go on tilt.

[GoldFinger1969]

This has become a sad thread. TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it. But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

Agreed....there are certain topics where we simply won't be able to agree and instead of just letting our own POV's hang out there, we get personal and the thread devolves.

 

It'd be like having a thread entitled WHAT ARE THE BEST COIN TO COLLECT -- you 'aint getting a definitive answer !

[GoldFinger1969]

[i'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

Personally, instead of having 2nd (or 3rd) opinions on coins, I think the way to eliminate coin doctoring (light-years bigger problem than grade-flation; I can live with a coin being off 1-2 grades, it's gonna happen, though hopefully not that often) is to have the TPGs and people like Laura Sperber stamp it out. I read her columns on coin doctoring and how some were dragging their feet and it seemed inexcusable to me.

[GoldFinger1969]

[i would also like to know some of what happened before CACs creation. If it was the AT issue and I find it fascinating that it took THAT long (circa 2006) when I had heard of AT'd coins in TPG holders back in the mid-90s.jom

 

AT coins ?

[Kurtdog]

[i would also like to know some of what happened before CACs creation. If it was the AT issue and I find it fascinating that it took THAT long (circa 2006) when I had heard of AT'd coins in TPG holders back in the mid-90s.jom

AT coins ?

Not again. Artificial Toning. It's an acronym for toning the TPGs don't like.

[Hard Times]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

Agreed...

 

I would love for him to answer the question I posted above. I really want to know what was going on that created the need for CAC. What is the greed he speaks of ?

 

I have been around the industry long enough to understand that the little guys "with chips on their shoulder" dont get the insider information. This is definitely a hobby of dealers vs. collectors.

 

So yes when a dealer wants to share inside information I want to hear it....

 

I'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

 

Mark---I agree with you 100% concerning the coin doctoring and grade-flation theory---I think you are RIGHT ON in your 'guess'.

 

Also, I too, was sad to see this thread deteriorate, as many here have a lot to offer.

 

Egos aside---I for one appreciate TDN's input, as well as the others involved here.

 

 

Keep in mind it takes posters on both sides of the argument for it to deteriorate as much as it did in this one. While I appreciate TDN's knowledge of numismatics, calling folks 'yahoos' even when prompted, and his style of delivery sometimes, does not absolve him of guilt for how this has evolved. All parties are guilty here that go to the level of name calling, so nice that Mark is defending TDN (even tho' he says he ain't) but there you have it.

 

Best, HT

[mumu]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

I guess when you buy 10 million dollar coins, it becomes acceptable to share information in this format:

 

~ "This forum of misfit insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, you don't know the real reason CAC even exists...im leaving the board now and going back to ATS".

[mumu]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

 

I wasnt even talking about TPGs whatsoever. I am 100% PRO TPG...both of them. Sounds like you have just decided to argue with me now. You are now arguing with people who have agreed and disagreed with you in the same thread. Learn to read.

[Kurtdog]

This has become a sad thread.

 

TDN/Bruce has a great deal of good information to share and most of it can apply to collectors of all types and many value ranges of coins. Few others have that information, while at the same time, are willing to share it.

 

But due to the bickering that has resulted, much of it will be ignored or lost. I'm not taking sides, because I can understand each. A bit less rudeness might have resulted in a great thread, instead of the mess this one has become.

 

I guess when you buy 10 million dollar coins, it becomes acceptable to share information in this format:

 

~ "This forum of misfit insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, you don't know the real reason CAC even exists...im leaving the board now and going back to ATS".

[jom]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

 

I wasnt even talking about TPGs whatsoever. I am 100% PRO TPG...both of them. Sounds like you have just decided to argue with me now. You are now arguing with people who have agreed and disagreed with you in the same thread. Learn to read.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone that I know of...however it is certainly possible I misunderstood the origin of your "strike" dispute with TDN. I'll leave it at that.

 

jom

[mumu]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

 

I wasnt even talking about TPGs whatsoever. I am 100% PRO TPG...both of them. Sounds like you have just decided to argue with me now. You are now arguing with people who have agreed and disagreed with you in the same thread. Learn to read.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone that I know of...however it is certainly possible I misunderstood the origin of your "strike" dispute with TDN. I'll leave it at that.

 

jom

 

My strike debate was not relative to anything regarding the TPG standards. And any reference to grade I made had to do with the absolute raw grade of a coin, not that of either TPG.

[jom]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

 

I wasnt even talking about TPGs whatsoever. I am 100% PRO TPG...both of them. Sounds like you have just decided to argue with me now. You are now arguing with people who have agreed and disagreed with you in the same thread. Learn to read.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone that I know of...however it is certainly possible I misunderstood the origin of your "strike" dispute with TDN. I'll leave it at that.

 

jom

 

My strike debate was not relative to anything regarding the TPG standards. And any reference to grade I made had to do with the absolute raw grade of a coin, not that of either TPG.

 

My mistake then...sorry.

 

jom

[TonerGuy]

 

I'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

 

I will presume that you are correct...

 

I realize doctoring is a art/skill that requires training and practice to become an expert in. Has technology also increased the TPG's difficulty in being able to detect it ? Hence the "sniffer" at PCGS...

 

If that is the case, how can CAC really be able to detect AT better than NGC or PCGS since they are viewing the coin through plastic ? I would think that evaluating the coin raw would be better.

 

As for grade-flation - what do you mean ? TPGs grading becoming more loose ?

[mumu]

But I firmly believe in the 64-65 range, they can be the #1 technical determining factor in what makes a coin PQ over another. 21 Peace dollars in the 63-64 range for example are a prime example where I have seen this.

 

That's good and you are FREE to apply that standard to any and all Peace Dollars (or any other series) yourself. Go for it. If the rest of the market, say, doesn't agree (I'm not saying they do or not) then why worry about it? If you have to have that well struck PD they simply wait to buy what you like. Isn't that better than arguing about how the TPGs handle it?

 

Again, I don't understand all of the arguments over this...if you don't like a coin don't buy it. This isn't rocket science.

 

jom

 

I wasnt even talking about TPGs whatsoever. I am 100% PRO TPG...both of them. Sounds like you have just decided to argue with me now. You are now arguing with people who have agreed and disagreed with you in the same thread. Learn to read.

 

I'm not arguing with anyone that I know of...however it is certainly possible I misunderstood the origin of your "strike" dispute with TDN. I'll leave it at that.

 

jom

 

My strike debate was not relative to anything regarding the TPG standards. And any reference to grade I made had to do with the absolute raw grade of a coin, not that of either TPG.

 

My mistake then...sorry.

 

jom

 

OK

[Hard Times]

 

I'm only guessing here, but presume the comment was in reference to prevalent coin doctoring and grade-flation. And many people (including those who boldly proclaim that they don't need any assistance from grading companies and/or CAC) are unaware of how treacherous the former has become.

 

I will presume that you are correct...

 

I realize doctoring is a art/skill that requires training and practice to become an expert in. Has technology also increased the TPG's difficulty in being able to detect it ? Hence the "sniffer" at PCGS...

 

If that is the case, how can CAC really be able to detect AT better than NGC or PCGS since they are viewing the coin through plastic ? I would think that evaluating the coin raw would be better.

 

As for grade-flation - what do you mean ? TPGs grading becoming more loose ?

 

In my experience so far, CAC is much more cautious with how they view toning than the two TPG's are. I think it is not a function of detecting AT better, but instead erring on the side of caution which is their right to do. What this means is that several of my market acceptable, eye appealing coins did not bean. But I still like them and each collector will have to decide for themselves if they agree with CAC on how they apply this standard. To his credit, when I posted images of these TDN was able to identify the toning issue so this may be a standard that many informed numismatists adhere to.

 

Best, HT