NGC or PCGS

[O mint bug]

I collect type one new Orleans double eagles. I have six of the twelve an will pick up 1-2 of the tougher coins each year if located, POP numbers in Au are very low. I notice NGC grades a majority of the pieces I see trade and many are very expensive coins ie 1913 V nickel and a $3.7MM gold doubloon that recently sold. I have heard that PCGS coins trade at a slight premium to NGC in certain types by some and other prefer NGC. I will be the first to admit the O mints I collect are generally weak strikes and came out of the mint with certain flaws. Doug Winter wrote a fantastic book on O mint gold and described each year in detail and commented that many of the strikes like 1858s Os have very weak obverse and the mint mark is very weak. 75% of the 61s are missing a portion of the date on the lower end and the 8 is very weak

 

As a new collector I just decided to buy the coin not the holder. I can get pretty close on the grade as I am familiar with al 12 coins in the run.

 

My ? Does either holder trade at a premium to the other in early O mint gold and if so which one and by what percentage? NGC seems to be the gold front runner in market share and I have seen PCGS coins that were so hard on the eye I would not pay much for them even though they had a PCGS holder. Both are the frontrunners in coin grading and I just want feedback from those who have experience, Also how much value does a CAC sticker add to a coin in terms of % of value and just what does CAC mean and what does CAC stand for?

 

The O mint bug

[DaveG]

It's a pleasure to welcome aboard another O-mint collector!

 

I'm glad you liked DW's book on New Orleans gold coins and hope you paid particular attention to the introductory chapters!

 

My advice for any collector of southern gold coins is to focus on the coin and not the plastic - if you're buying attractive coins with original surfaces, then the other collectors of southern gold will recognize it.

 

The brand of plastic will not add to a coin that has been "enhanced", nor will it hide a coin that is attractive and original. (As you know, DW sells coins in PCGS and NGC slabs.)

 

It's possible that the brand of plastic will add to the value of a common coin, but southern gold coins are sufficiently rare that (to me, at least) the brand of plastic really doesn't matter.

 

To learn more about CAC, visit their website.

 

I can't address whether their sticker adds value to southern gold coins, but I believe that the more sophisticated the collector, the less value they add.

[MarkFeld]

I collect type one new Orleans double eagles. I have six of the twelve an will pick up 1-2 of the tougher coins each year if located, POP numbers in Au are very low. I notice NGC grades a majority of the pieces I see trade and many are very expensive coins ie 1913 V nickel and a $3.7MM gold doubloon that recently sold. I have heard that PCGS coins trade at a slight premium to NGC in certain types by some and other prefer NGC. I will be the first to admit the O mints I collect are generally weak strikes and came out of the mint with certain flaws. Doug Winter wrote a fantastic book on O mint gold and described each year in detail and commented that many of the strikes like 1858s Os have very weak obverse and the mint mark is very weak. 75% of the 61s are missing a portion of the date on the lower end and the 8 is very weak

 

As a new collector I just decided to buy the coin not the holder. I can get pretty close on the grade as I am familiar with al 12 coins in the run.

 

My ? Does either holder trade at a premium to the other in early O mint gold and if so which one and by what percentage? NGC seems to be the gold front runner in market share and I have seen PCGS coins that were so hard on the eye I would not pay much for them even though they had a PCGS holder. Both are the frontrunners in coin grading and I just want feedback from those who have experience, Also how much value does a CAC sticker add to a coin in terms of % of value and just what does CAC mean and what does CAC stand for?

 

The O mint bug

 

Generally speaking, (and there will certainly be many exceptions) PCGS coins tend to sell for more than NGC coins.

 

That is due largely to the perception that PCGS grades more strictly than NGC. In some cases that perception is accurate and in others, it's not. The popularity of the PCGS set registry also plays a role in generally higher prices for PCGS coins. Some people also believe, that due to the plastic used, coins look better in PCGS holders.

 

I would not want to generalize regarding the premiums that PCGS coins tend to bring. It depends largely on the series and the grade of the coins, and the premiums can vary significantly.

 

Ditto for the premiums that CAC coins can bring.

 

Here is a link to the CAC website, where you can read about what a CAC sticker means/stands for, at least according to CAC.

[JIM F.]

 

 

I can't address whether their sticker adds value to southern gold coins, but I believe that the more sophisticated the collector, the less value they add.

 

However, there are many "unsophisticated" buyers that will pay more for this sticker.

[GoldFinger1969]

I don't think that any PCGS vs. NGC premium is worth debating. I do believe there is a marginal bias in favor of PCGS but if NGC has more experience in looking at the New Orleans Double Eagles you specialize in, that's a reason to consider them.

 

As for CAC....just check out our threads. Whether your regard it as a 2nd Opinion or a marketing gimmick, all else equal (that's the key) a CAC coin trades at a premium.

 

Of course, I would rather have an MS-66 without CAC than an MS-65 with CAC so keep that in mind. (thumbs u

 

BTW...Welcome !! Always great to see another Double Eagle collector here on the boards, please post some pics of your coins and tell us what other DE's you might have interest in and any cool stories about your collection.

[O mint bug]

Thanks for the rapid reply. I read his second edition and it is the best source I have found. Hopefully a third will be forthcoming. I have found this sector of the coin world the most difficult to find, pay for (expensive in AU ) but the best investments. DW told me recently the Os are appreciating in the 10-15% range in the prevailing economic environment. He loves to get them as they are very easy to sell per his comment. I just wish I could have started 10 years ago. My next focus is the 55,59, and 60. I am not so worried about the 50 and 51 running away in terms of price but I do not the 50 in AU 55 is much tougher than one would think. I have 6 of the 12 but I am not near the 50 yard line when POP and costs of the above and the two mission impossibles 54 and 56 Os are factored in. Heritage has two 1860 AU-55 Os coming up and a AU 54-O consensus coin but I have to just watch the 54 O go. I am not much of an auction buyer because there are two very reputable wholesalers fairly close. I do want to watch the 54-O sell to see just what it brings. I saw between $500-600K.

 

Regards

 

The O mint bug

[Catbert]

I assume you have created a free membership at Heritage? If so, you can look up in the archives sale history for the coins of interest (and can screen by the holders they are in and with or without the CAC sticker). You can then validate, at least for the largest auction house, what sales price difference, if any, between holders.

[MarkFeld]

I don't think that any PCGS vs. NGC premium is worth debating. I do believe there is a marginal bias in favor of PCGS but if NGC has more experience in looking at the New Orleans Double Eagles you specialize in, that's a reason to consider them.

 

As for CAC....just check out our threads. Whether your regard it as a 2nd Opinion or a marketing gimmick, all else equal (that's the key) a CAC coin trades at a premium.

 

Of course, I would rather have an MS-66 without CAC than an MS-65 with CAC so keep that in mind. (thumbs u

 

BTW...Welcome !! Always great to see another Double Eagle collector here on the boards, please post some pics of your coins and tell us what other DE's you might have interest in and any cool stories about your collection.

 

There is generally far more than "a marginal bias" in favor of PCGS coins.

[DaveG]

Hopefully a third [edition] will be forthcoming.

 

 

O mint bug,

 

It will probably be a number of years before a third edition of DW's O-mint book appears.

 

The CC-mint book is the next in line to be updated.

 

Also, the 3rd edition of DW's D-mint book (which was published this past summer) seems to have gotten almost no distribution, possibly because both the publisher and most numismatic booksellers still have supplies of the 2nd edition.

 

Since supplies of the 2nd edition of the O-mint book appear to be ample right now, it may be several years before a 3rd edition is needed.

 

In the meantime, DW will most likely provided a number of articles on his website that will update the market-sensitive portions of the book.

[Walkerfan]

I like them (NGC and PCGS) equally, although there are 'kool-aid drinkers' out there who only buy PCGS. I find that the price disparity dwindles the higher up the food chain that you go. i.e. a more common/widget type coin will usually sell for more in PCGS plastic but higher grade/rarer date coins sell for about the same regardless of the plastic, at least in MY experiences.

 

So for the widgets/common coins---those under 1000---I choose NGC, b/c I can get the same or even better quality for less money. For the rarer issues I buy whatever I can find that I LIKE be it a PCGS OR AN NGC slab.

 

As for CAC-----I see a lot of nice coins with the sticker and some that I DON'T like. Also, some of these CAC coins are original and some that are not. AGAIN---I use my judgement and buy WHAT I LIKE and looks good to ME.

 

NICE CAC coins seem to command a premium in ANY type of plastic.

[brg5658]

I don't think that any PCGS vs. NGC premium is worth debating. I do believe there is a marginal bias in favor of PCGS but if NGC has more experience in looking at the New Orleans Double Eagles you specialize in, that's a reason to consider them...

 

There is generally far more than "a marginal bias" in favor of PCGS coins.

 

The perceived difference in overall quality between NGC and PCGS may be far more than marginal. I'm not so sure the actual difference is.

[MarkFeld]

I like them (NGC and PCGS) equally, although there are 'kool-aid drinkers' out there who only buy PCGS. I find that the price disparity dwindles the higher up the food chain that you go. i.e. a more common/widget type coin will usually sell for more in PCGS plastic but higher grade/rarer date coins sell for about the same regardless of the plastic, at least in MY experiences.

 

So for the widgets/common coins---those under 1000---I choose NGC, b/c I can get the same or even better quality for less money. For the rarer issues I buy whatever I can find that I LIKE be it a PCGS OR AN NGC slab.

 

As for CAC-----I see a lot of nice coins with the sticker and some that I DON'T like. Also, some of these CAC coins are original and some that are not. AGAIN---I use my judgement and buy WHAT I LIKE and looks good to ME.

 

NICE CAC coins seem to command a premium in ANY type of plastic.

 

My experience and observations have been the opposite - the higher the grade and value, the generally larger difference in price between PCGS and NGC coins.

 

It's not my personal preference, but rather a fact of life.

[Walkerfan]

I like them (NGC and PCGS) equally, although there are 'kool-aid drinkers' out there who only buy PCGS. I find that the price disparity dwindles the higher up the food chain that you go. i.e. a more common/widget type coin will usually sell for more in PCGS plastic but higher grade/rarer date coins sell for about the same regardless of the plastic, at least in MY experiences.

 

So for the widgets/common coins---those under 1000---I choose NGC, b/c I can get the same or even better quality for less money. For the rarer issues I buy whatever I can find that I LIKE be it a PCGS OR AN NGC slab.

 

As for CAC-----I see a lot of nice coins with the sticker and some that I DON'T like. Also, some of these CAC coins are original and some that are not. AGAIN---I use my judgement and buy WHAT I LIKE and looks good to ME.

 

NICE CAC coins seem to command a premium in ANY type of plastic.

 

My experience and observations have been the opposite - the higher the grade and value, the generally larger difference in price between PCGS and NGC coins.

 

It's not my personal preference, but rather a fact of life.

 

I stand behind my comments, which have been my personal experiences, as I have no preference.

[O mint bug]

Yes it is but after finding out about this forum and feedback from various collectors it will become annual. As far as prices I look at what the auctions such as Heritage price as that is much more current than a price guide. An example. I purchased a 1853 O AU 53 for 10k and NGC list it for something in the 15K range non CAC or anything else. It is a very nice coin and I would imagine it would cross over to either slab. I collected Indian artifacts and noticed that new comers that bought quality pieces were deemed crazy to pay a given price for by long term collectors almost always turned out to be smart purchases. After 18-24 months it was the new collectors that bought quality within reason that laughed all the way to the bank.

 

I have found that the higher grade o mints do not trade often and the listed prices were often understating the current value. I do feel the most recent transaction on a coin with several serious buyers present is the best measure of value. Doug Winters confirmed this as he uses recent auction results as well.

 

He favors PCGS but mentioned the older gold has a much thinner spread. other long term collectors I have talked to feel NGC is better on gold. I think bag marks and their location are what PCGS factors in and a weak strike might work against a coin more than NGC. I have to side with NGC ( provided this is correct ) as each date has different flaws. The New Orleans mint was not well maintained and mintage was a bit over 829,000 for all 12 type one coins in aggregate and few well struck. A good example is the 1861 O, which was minted under three different flags from January through May 1861. It is the poorest strike of the group but it is all relevant. It is suspected the confederates etched some lines in the lower portion of the 8 as the date was becoming very weak. THIS DOES NOT PROVE THE COINS WITH THIS ATTRIBUTE WERE CONFEDERATE STRIKES. No one can prove which were struck by the U.S., the State, or the Confederacy.

 

My point is a AU 53 61 O is not going to be a very well struck coin relative to the others. It is all relevant. If PCGS factors the mint problems in I feel they are not grading the coin based on what came out of the mint and this is not an accurate measure. Do better strikes command a premium - of course. I agree PCGS commands a bit of a premium but a very small one in southern gold. If NGC were far out of line they would not be grading very rare coins as this would result in a smart Seller cracking a NGC slab and sending all coins to PCGS. Markets for expensive assets are very efficient and tend to filter this sort of thing out via the price.

 

I didn't not know just what I had bitten off when I selected the type one Os but love for the hobby, challenge, the history behind these coins and feel once I gather a nice group of them I will have a set to be proud of NGC/ PCGS or both, with the latter being the current situation

 

I am just not lucky enough to locate them graded by one service and would appreciate any leads on a fair priced coin no matter which of the two graders name is on it. Thanks to ALL for your input. It is helpful and appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I collect type one new Orleans double eagles. I have six of the twelve an will pick up 1-2 of the tougher coins each year if located, POP numbers in Au are very low. I notice NGC grades a majority of the pieces I see trade and many are very expensive coins ie 1913 V nickel and a $3.7MM gold doubloon that recently sold. I have heard that PCGS coins trade at a slight premium to NGC in certain types by some and other prefer NGC. I will be the first to admit the O mints I collect are generally weak strikes and came out of the mint with certain flaws. Doug Winter wrote a fantastic book on O mint gold and described each year in detail and commented that many of the strikes like 1858s Os have very weak obverse and the mint mark is very weak. 75% of the 61s are missing a portion of the date on the lower end and the 8 is very weak

 

As a new collector I just decided to buy the coin not the holder. I can get pretty close on the grade as I am familiar with al 12 coins in the run.

 

My ? Does either holder trade at a premium to the other in early O mint gold and if so which one and by what percentage? NGC seems to be the gold front runner in market share and I have seen PCGS coins that were so hard on the eye I would not pay much for them even though they had a PCGS holder.

At some point, you have to realize that it does not matter whether or not some coin (allegedly) sells for more in Slab-A than Slab-B.

 

If it "sells for more", then it's going to COST you more. The net effect is zero.

[GoldFinger1969]

There is generally far more than "a marginal bias" in favor of PCGS coins.

 

Really Mark ? How would you define 'more than marginal' ? From my admittedly limited experience but hawkish watching of prices and some auctions (albeit mostly Ebay, some Heritage) it appears it is maybe 5-10% at best.

 

And part of that might be because aside from grading the PCGS holders are preferred (at least compared to some of the older NGC's) because they allow easier viewing of the sides and are more pleasing aesthetically.

 

What number would you ascribe to any difference between NGC and PCGS, Mark, if you had identical MS-65's for example in each ?

[O mint bug]

Only if you buy it. Just because one sold for more does not mean someone did not over pay. This is why I focus on 12 coins only, deal with reputable people and avoid many auctions.

[GoldFinger1969]

I like them (NGC and PCGS) equally, although there are 'kool-aid drinkers' out there who only buy PCGS. I find that the price disparity dwindles the higher up the food chain that you go. i.e. a more common/widget type coin will usually sell for more in PCGS plastic but higher grade/rarer date coins sell for about the same regardless of the plastic, at least in MY experiences.

 

Agree completely....I should have mentioned this in my post above.

 

So for the widgets/common coins---those under 1000---I choose NGC, b/c I can get the same or even better quality for less money. For the rarer issues I buy whatever I can find that I LIKE be it a PCGS OR AN NGC slab.

 

I like the PCGS holders better but if I find a coin of equal-appearance and it's more than 2-3% cheaper, I'll buy it. (thumbs u

 

As for CAC-----I see a lot of nice coins with the sticker and some that I DON'T like. Also, some of these CAC coins are original and some that are not. AGAIN---I use my judgement and buy WHAT I LIKE and looks good to ME.

 

Agreed.... (thumbs u

 

NICE CAC coins seem to command a premium in ANY type of plastic.

 

Yup.... (thumbs u But again, grading aside, I know some of the NGC holders (though not the newer ones) are disliked from an aesthetic POV.

[MarkFeld]

There is generally far more than "a marginal bias" in favor of PCGS coins.

 

Really Mark ? How would you define 'more than marginal' ? From my admittedly limited experience but hawkish watching of prices and some auctions (albeit mostly Ebay, some Heritage) it appears it is maybe 5-10% at best.

 

And part of that might be because aside from grading the PCGS holders are preferred (at least compared to some of the older NGC's) because they allow easier viewing of the sides and are more pleasing aesthetically.

 

What number would you ascribe to any difference between NGC and PCGS, Mark, if you had identical MS-65's for example in each ?

 

To me, more than marginal would be more than about 3-5% extra. Many sell for more than that, a good number, more than 10-20% higher and a fair number, way more than 20% higher.

 

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

[GoldFinger1969]

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

 

I get what you are saying, but with all the "buy the coin, not the slab" talk....wouldn't you think that someone buying a very limited population coin -- less than a few dozen or maybe single-digits availability -- is going to just want THE COIN such that only the grade (and even that will be scrutinized) is going to matter, not the coin holder ?

 

I mean....if those coins cost tens of thousands at the minimum, and probably hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think such a buyer is an expert himself (herself) and/or is employing an expert who could give a rat's you-know-what about the grader/holder ?

 

At the extreme: if there were two...1933 Double Eagles...1 in a PCGS, 1 in an NGC.....and if they each had the same grade and looked for all intents and purposes 99.999% the same.....can you imagine someone paying MORE for the PCGS if they could buy either ?

 

Unless someone has a fetish for PCGS, I can't imagine why. Even if that person was told "PCGS has better re-sale."

[jom]

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

 

I get what you are saying, but with all the "buy the coin, not the slab" talk....wouldn't you think that someone buying a very limited population coin -- less than a few dozen or maybe single-digits availability -- is going to just want THE COIN such that only the grade (and even that will be scrutinized) is going to matter, not the coin holder ?

 

I mean....if those coins cost tens of thousands at the minimum, and probably hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think such a buyer is an expert himself (herself) and/or is employing an expert who could give a rat's you-know-what about the grader/holder ?

 

At the extreme: if there were two...1933 Double Eagles...1 in a PCGS, 1 in an NGC.....and if they each had the same grade and looked for all intents and purposes 99.999% the same.....can you imagine someone paying MORE for the PCGS if they could buy either ?

 

Unless someone has a fetish for PCGS, I can't imagine why. Even if that person was told "PCGS has better re-sale."

 

You are using a bad example because unique coins are not the point here. You guys are talking averages and to have a meaningful average you need a population of coins. In those cases, people do pay more for the PCGS coin and it happens all of the time. Sometimes it is warranted, other times not. For example, I see AU Bust material going for a lot more in PCGS holders and lot of the times it's due to a different grading standard, especially at or near AU. Other series in MS it's just the idea of having it in a PCGS holder not necessarily the coin itself. Such as the Registry...or it could just be "perception" of a nicer coin. Then there is the fact that many correctly graded coins get cracked out of NGC slabs only to be regraded to PCGS leaving the dog behind in NGC holders which gives the perception of "over grading".

 

Besides all of that trying to "generalize" grading is difficult if not impossible considering that each individual coin is different. You have to look at SPECIFIC examples to really tell between two coins...which is why your unique coin (1933) example is a bad one.

 

jom

[benjmurts]

I would pay more for an NGC than a PCGS just cause I like it better

[GoldFinger1969]

You are using a bad example because unique coins are not the point here. You guys are talking averages and to have a meaningful average you need a population of coins. In those cases, people do pay more for the PCGS coin and it happens all of the time. Sometimes it is warranted, other times not..... Besides all of that trying to "generalize" grading is difficult if not impossible considering that each individual coin is different. You have to look at SPECIFIC examples to really tell between two coins...which is why your unique coin (1933) example is a bad one.

jom

 

OK, maybe I was just trying to extrapolate Mark's example and did a poor job. Maybe I should have used some coins with a larger population, maybe hundreds in high-Mint State condition (maybe Mark thinks thousands is more appropriate) ?

 

The point I was TRYING to make was this: if you are a very astute, very knowledgeable collector I would think PCGS vs. NGC -- AT THE MARGIN -- is not a big deal.

 

But maybe it is !!

 

We have some very astute, bigtime collectors here who have been collecting, looking, grading, etc., for DECADES. Would love to hear what they say, rather than us guess and pontificate. That should really give us some color on this issue.

[mumu]

PCGS will ban you for no reason, NGC will use common sense.

[O mint bug]

A very highly regarded wholesaler told me just the opposite this week.

He stated that the premium shrinks in terms of the percentage of the purchase price when you get into coins like rare O mints as a result of prices. The other dealer I respect and trust made the same comment.

 

I doubt the 1913 v nickel NGC slabbed went at a lower price because of the grading entity .I think it brought $4MM but that is memory. One of the dealers I spoke with recently used the same phrase of "buy the coin and not the name on the holder" ). I am not going to use any names but if you collect I suspect you have heard of him as well as the other I do business with. They have forgotten more about these coins than I will ever know and that is the type of consultant I need. They did not obtain national recognition being dishonest.

 

I feel the secret is getting these people on your side as a collector and if you agree to buy the coin send the cashiers check as agreed ASAP. Honor your end of the deal and they want your business, especially if you treat them they way they should and have treated other clients. The fellow I am referring to has handled many of these coins and says with patience he can locate me a good specimen of the 55 and 59 as he has handled the best of the type ones bar none and I respect him for his knowledge and reputation. Same goes for the other. I started small and have directed the more expensive purchases only to them. When you start getting into coins like the 55 O or a 59 O dealing with a couple very reputable wholesalers is the only way I will go as they typically give a repeat client a better deal and tend to be helpful in selecting a good example. One I have spoken with is probably the most knowledgeable in the business, coin graders included. Hard cold truth is so few come on the market you cannot be real picky about NGC or PCGS. I rely on them as consultants and will pay one to bid on a coin if I ever have to resort to auction. They have dealt the highest of the high end in the Dbl eagle arena. As I write this there is a AU 1854 AU55 O coming to auction ( which I will not be bidding on ) and I seriously doubt the heavy handed collectors are going to get hung up on a holder. I have seen more 54 and 56 Os come available to the few that can afford them than the 55 or 59 O. I note the two I would like to find are much cheaper but the fact is I have yet to see a clean 55 or 59 O come up yet. They will and the way to find them is cultivate a business relationship with those that have dealt them and get the chance to sell coins of this type. This is how the best coins trade and none ever get on EBay. I will wait until they do and if a trusted, well respected dealer suggest I pass I will. If the two I trust tell me the coin is a good value with eye appeal I'll take a crack at it. They know I will be back.

 

As I said in my opening post I cannot afford a large mistake. Mistakes are a way to learn but associating yourself with quality experts is a much more "cost effective' way to accomplish my goal. Admitting I need the help and taking time to find quality dealers is my only option.

 

What makes these coins so difficult in AU is they come up so very seldom and price guides are not very accurate. There are less than 100 55 Os and 59 Os in all grades.

 

I get much better deals on the few low pop coins I have found doing this in terms of % over cost. One makes a flat rate on these coins as the ability to move this type of inventory is a critical factor to them. mark these coins uo 20% and they will sell eventually but turning three coins over the same period of time is more profitable to the dealer. Holding time is a major consideration in markup as they want to reemploy their working capital quickly into another coin .Frankly I will never complete the set as all of the 54 and 56 dbl Eagles are graded EF or better. I just cannot afford to lay out $300,000 for a EF coin or any coin for that matter. I am just a regular guy but I do my homework and strongly believe in cultivating a good relationship with a couple of quality wholesale dealers is a prerequisite for success..

 

What I have learned is this is much like deer hunting as when a large trophy buck steps out you better act quick as it will probably be the last time you will see him and you better be prepared to act. I know approximate values but I have yet to have a shot at a nice AU 55 or 59O but I will. Check the Heritage Auction archives and you will see a clean ( no improper cleaning or tooling ) example does not come very often. One rim filed 55 recently sold but that is the only one I have seen up for sale. I plan to go as far as I can as long as I live as I have been waiting for to get some very nice coins for many years - lots!

 

Luck and time will tell where I end up but if I do get all but the 54 and 56 O in AU 50 or better I'll consider myself very lucky. My collection will consist of ten coins and a few traders (if I am lucky)

[O mint bug]

Mark

 

I think you got it right

[O mint bug]

When you are dealing in coins with a pop of less than 100 buying a good coin at a fair price is the critical factor. Frankly both graders puzzle me with some of their results. I have heard of many situations where the coin is graded a 53, the slab cracked, and the coin sent back to the same grader with a different result ie finally gets a 55 and sometimes a cac sticker the second or third time around. O mint grading is very tough and coin grading is nothing more than someone's opinion but that is all we have and their numbers drive the coin market prices. Each coin has is own charectics out of the mint, Sorta sad given the amount of money we spend but they have a tough job and the only person that does not make a mistake is someone that never does anything.

[GoldFinger1969]

Mark I think you got it right

 

O-Mint, your lengthy post above recounting what a dealer told you is AT ODDS with what Mark said (with which you agreed).

 

So....do you agree with Mark -- that gaps exist even in rarified air of scarce/expensive coins -- or with the dealer who says the gap disappears as you get into that sector ?

[MarkFeld]

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

 

I get what you are saying, but with all the "buy the coin, not the slab" talk....wouldn't you think that someone buying a very limited population coin -- less than a few dozen or maybe single-digits availability -- is going to just want THE COIN such that only the grade (and even that will be scrutinized) is going to matter, not the coin holder ?

 

I mean....if those coins cost tens of thousands at the minimum, and probably hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think such a buyer is an expert himself (herself) and/or is employing an expert who could give a rat's you-know-what about the grader/holder ?

 

At the extreme: if there were two...1933 Double Eagles...1 in a PCGS, 1 in an NGC.....and if they each had the same grade and looked for all intents and purposes 99.999% the same.....can you imagine someone paying MORE for the PCGS if they could buy either ?

 

Unless someone has a fetish for PCGS, I can't imagine why. Even if that person was told "PCGS has better re-sale."

 

I have seen many examples in which the identical coin brought considerably more money in a PCGS holder than it did in an NGC holder. And not the other way around.That is a large part of the reason so many coins are attempted for crossover into PCGS holders.

 

If a relatively small percentage of buyers buy the coin, not the holder, but many others buy the holder, not the coin, that will have a dramatic impact on price. And I believe that is the numismatic world in which we live. We don't have to like it or think it makes sense, but that doesn't stop it.

[Kurtdog]

It sounds like you might be talking about generic gold. But either way, I am tailing about a much broader grouping of coin types and grades.

I get what you are saying, but with all the "buy the coin, not the slab" talk....wouldn't you think that someone buying a very limited population coin -- less than a few dozen or maybe single-digits availability -- is going to just want THE COIN such that only the grade (and even that will be scrutinized) is going to matter, not the coin holder ?

 

I mean....if those coins cost tens of thousands at the minimum, and probably hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think such a buyer is an expert himself (herself) and/or is employing an expert who could give a rat's you-know-what about the grader/holder ?

 

At the extreme: if there were two...1933 Double Eagles...1 in a PCGS, 1 in an NGC.....and if they each had the same grade and looked for all intents and purposes 99.999% the same.....can you imagine someone paying MORE for the PCGS if they could buy either ?

 

Unless someone has a fetish for PCGS, I can't imagine why. Even if that person was told "PCGS has better re-sale."

I have seen many examples in which the identical coin brought considerably more money in a PCGS holder than it did in an NGC holder. And not the other way around.That is a large part of the reason so many coins are attempted for crossover into PCGS holders.

 

If a relatively small percentage of buyers buy the coin, not the holder, but many others buy the holder, not the coin, that will have a dramatic impact on price. And I believe that is the numismatic world in which we live. We don't have to like it or think it makes sense, but that doesn't stop it.

But we don't have to be blind, either, Mark. That's not a prerequisite to being a coin collector. Everybody can see how marketing-innundated they are ATS.