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Bounced echeck

32 posts in this topic

I sold a couple of gold notes to someone in another state Sunday on ebay. The guy sends me an email, could you ship express because his son was having a birthday on Thursday? He said his 666 positive feedbacks on ebay should be enough. He paid via echeck. I have never had a problem before with echeck payments in paypal. His two payments bounced. So I opened unpaid item cases on ebay after emailing him a couple of times and not getting a response. Paypal said that I could open a claim when I spoke with them yesterday. My guess is no one is going to try to skip out over under $400 on purchases if it ruins their account.

 

Have other sellers had an experience like this and how have they handled it?

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never had this problem before.

i did get e-checks, but an email always follows from paypal saying DONT SHIP UNTIL PAYMENT CLEARS.

i really hope the buyer pays you back.

 

the worst part of it is: if the buyer doesn't pay you now, EBAY WON'T DO A DAMN THING TO HIS ACCOUNT . if he stops replying to your emails or to the case you opened, all he gets is the unpaid item strike on his account (which goes away after 12 months) and you would get you FVF back. but he won't get suspended or anything... becuase in their eyes you shouldn't have shipped the itm, all the buyer did wrong was not paying you..

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never had this problem before.

i did get e-checks, but an email always follows from paypal saying DONT SHIP UNTIL PAYMENT CLEARS.

i really hope the buyer pays you back.

 

the worst part of it is: if the buyer doesn't pay you now, EBAY WON'T DO A DAMN THING TO HIS ACCOUNT . if he stops replying to your emails or to the case you opened, all he gets is the unpaid item strike on his account (which goes away after 12 months) and you would get you FVF back. but he won't get suspended or anything... becuase in their eyes you shouldn't have shipped the itm, all the buyer did wrong was not paying you..

 

But if you have his name and address, you know what state he lives in and can research the laws on bad checks. I would then contact the authorities there if he doesn't pay. You might not get your money, but the buyer would have misdemeanor and perhaps felony convictions (depending on value and jurisdiction) if he tried to take my money. As an added bonus, you might be able to get court ordered restitution without having to spend your money in an expensive civil suit. In addition to being cost effective, restitution is generally non-dischargeable in a bankruptcy proceeding as opposed to a civil judgment (the law was changed to prevent discharge in the 1990s, favoring the victim).

 

P.S. As a general rule, don't ever ship until the funds clear your account. That is a recipe for problems. I hope it works out well for you.

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My experience was just a delay in my shipping because I did not ship item until PAYPAL said payment clear and safe to send. It added another week or so. Back when most of eBay was cash/check/money orders I ended up eating check and bank fees and losing item.

 

You should have combined shipping and invoice for 1 payment to save you on PAYPAL fees - 1 transaction rather than 2.

 

A bounced check does not mean the person did something wrong. They may have had a deposit in their account that came back putting them into the negative. They also are getting $30-50 bounced check fees for every item presented to them. Their bank may not have even notified them yet about the overdraft. You do not know their income cycle/source for them to get their account into positive.

 

PAYPAL told you to open an unpaid item case? I see no way this will help the situation now. If not resolved in a couple weeks, then yes you need to to get your ?$40? ebay fees refunded to your seller account.

 

I would wait until next Friday before making any contact if they have not made contact with you before then. You can get contact info from eBay that should include a current phone number.

 

I would not be very worried yet if it was the guy with 666 feedback that won the 1906 $20 note.

 

I would be more worried if it was the guy who has 6 feedback and won the 1928 $20 note and 1895-S $5 gold and underbidder on the 1906 $20 note.

 

I hope items did not get mixed with buyers, as that makes it more complicated.

 

 

You are rather upset now, but there is not much you can do right now, it is both too late (you already sent items) and too early (to start fee refunds and filing complaints or considering charges / collection).

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I sold a couple of gold notes to someone in another state Sunday on ebay. The guy sends me an email, could you ship express because his son was having a birthday on Thursday? He said his 666 positive feedbacks on ebay should be enough. He paid via echeck. I have never had a problem before with echeck payments in paypal. His two payments bounced. So I opened unpaid item cases on ebay after emailing him a couple of times and not getting a response. Paypal said that I could open a claim when I spoke with them yesterday. My guess is no one is going to try to skip out over under $400 on purchases if it ruins their account.

 

Have other sellers had an experience like this and how have they handled it?

 

Unfortunately, this could have been avoided, had you followed the guidelines and said, "No." As others have said, Paypal recommends not shipping until payment has cleared. If he wanted his items fast, he should have paid for them instantly. I would call the local authorities immediately, because this is still theft.

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The local police have been dismissive in the past with thefts under $1000.

 

Probably the thing to do is to document the transactions, make copies of them. Ask for a police sergeant to file a report. See if paypal could provide internal information on the echeck and follow up with that. At any rate if this proves to be anything other than unintentional fraud I will get a judgment against the agent of it.

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I had a few bad checks when I was dealer, but was fortunate enough never to have lost the principle on one. The banks charge you a fortune for them these days ... almost to the point when I think they are profit center for the bank. That's why the stores put up those signs about how much they are going to nick you if you pass one.

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The local police have been dismissive in the past with thefts under $1000.

 

Probably the thing to do is to document the transactions, make copies of them. Ask for a police sergeant to file a report. See if paypal could provide internal information on the echeck and follow up with that. At any rate if this proves to be anything other than unintentional fraud I will get a judgment against the agent of it.

 

What jurisdiction does the buyer live in? Why not contact them? Technically it is also arguably federal wire fraud if he doesn't pay, but I don't think the feds will care if it is a small amount.

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I have used Paypal for many, many years but I do not think I know what this echeck is?

 

Is this when someone pays you but it is actually being transferred through the bank and they tell you to wait to ship? Such as when they do not use a debit or credit card which is instant?

 

 

 

 

 

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I have used Paypal for many, many years but I do not think I know what this echeck is?

 

Is this when someone pays you but it is actually being transferred through the bank and they tell you to wait to ship? Such as when they do not use a debit or credit card which is instant?

 

 

 

 

I once made a buy on ebay. I had funds in my paypal acct and did not want to use those. So I bypassed my funds and had my payment come straight from my bank. Paypal changed my payment from instant to an echeck. I think it took about 3 days to clear.

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I have used Paypal for many, many years but I do not think I know what this echeck is?

 

Is this when someone pays you but it is actually being transferred through the bank and they tell you to wait to ship? Such as when they do not use a debit or credit card which is instant?

 

 

 

 

 

Some people do not have credit or debit cards and their PAYPAL account is linked to have access to their checking account. Similar to a direct bill pay or ACH transfer. When PAYPAL goes for the cash, it is just like a check being presented and occasionally there are insufficient funds (NSF) to cover all checks presented that day Depending on the bank, they may pay all, some or none of them. As a seller, PAYPAL tells you that you have been paid via echeck and they will let you know when it clears.... PAYPAL frequently takes longer to tell and gets a couple extra days float ... which probably adds up to lots when a few hundred million are involved (throughout their worldwide reach).

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OK. I got it.

 

I think it is what I have always referred to ( and Paypal used to I believe) as a 'Bank Draft'. I just do not believe I remember seeing it referred to as a eCheck until this thread so I thought it might be something new to me.

 

It has happened to me on a few occasion when I sold something and Paypal told me to wait to send it; and of course I did wait.

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Wow - I wonder how this will turn out. I hope its merely a resolvable oversight on his part and you get your money. And this a guy with a solid FB score.

 

I don't ship them anything until payment has cleared no matter how much they squawk. I will keep this example in mind the next time one of them tries to pressure me. Be careful of fake money orders and make sure they clear or if USPS cash them at PO before shipping.

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I spoke with the guy who runs the New Haven show ("Superstore") on Sunday, he's a lawyer now. He said when he was in college he bought a gold coin on ebay that never arrived. He was really steamed. He tried contacting the guy who was typically unavailable. The seller had scammed a lot of others around the same time, so he contacted the other aggrieved parties and finally the Feds got involved. He eventually got his money back.

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The local police have been dismissive in the past with thefts under $1000.

 

Probably the thing to do is to document the transactions, make copies of them. Ask for a police sergeant to file a report. See if paypal could provide internal information on the echeck and follow up with that. At any rate if this proves to be anything other than unintentional fraud I will get a judgment against the agent of it.

 

What jurisdiction does the buyer live in? Why not contact them? Technically it is also arguably federal wire fraud if he doesn't pay, but I don't think the feds will care if it is a small amount.

 

and tell them what?

 

from ebay/paypal's point of view, the only thing the buyer did wrong was "not completing the deal", and they will give him an "unpaid item strike" on his account for it.

they can't do anything with the fact that the buyer already got the item, cause he was not supposed to.

 

 

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PayPal will sometimes refund your money even in situations such as this. I knew of a guy who did a large bullion transaction with PayPal Gift and never received the goods. PayPal refunded the full amount and told him not to do that again.

 

Contact PayPal and explain what happened. They will likely refund the full amount to you.

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PayPal will sometimes refund your money even in situations such as this. I knew of a guy who did a large bullion transaction with PayPal Gift and never received the goods. PayPal refunded the full amount and told him not to do that again.

 

Contact PayPal and explain what happened. They will likely refund the full amount to you.

 

I persisted with them today, they asked what I paid for the $20 gold notes, I told them in this case around $160 each, plus PMG certification at $35 per note. They said they would submit a request for refunding me just the cost of the bare note, not certification and related expenses.

 

I asked them how I would get a copy of the bank or financial institution's information on the bad echecks, they said that I would have to get a court subpoena for that. I sent out a certified letter yesterday and will continue to pursue a judgment for fraud so that the next person who thinks they can pull rip-offs/cons will think twice. If we reward or ignore fraud, it only gets worse.

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Have you called and asked the guy anything yet?

 

You should be able to get contact info (and phone number) from eBay because you have had a transaction with them. They also need to have current contact info, or else can get kicked off eBay.

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Have you called and asked the guy anything yet?

 

You should be able to get contact info (and phone number) from eBay because you have had a transaction with them. They also need to have current contact info, or else can get kicked off eBay.

 

I tried to contact the guy via emails and calls and he cannot be reached; ebay and paypal also tried to contact him without getting any responses.

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I sent out a certified letter yesterday and will continue to pursue a judgment for fraud so that the next person who thinks they can pull rip-offs/cons will think twice. If we reward or ignore fraud, it only gets worse.

 

I know it has only been five days ( I believe) but how many days of unanswered attempts at communication until you feel comfortable calling it a fraud and letting everyone here know the ID of the person in the spirit of the above statement?

 

Heck, a phone number as well for that matter.

 

 

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No one else has suggested anything else but a rip-off here. The guy was extremely eager a week ago Sunday before last to get some numismatics he said for his kid's birthday that week, pleading for express shipment so that he would be sure to have the goods in hand for the eventful day. Then after they were shipped no one heard a thing from him. Oh, there must be some innocent explanation? Really!

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I think you took my question as being adversarial or critical of you or your judgment. It was not my intention.

 

I do not for one moment think your situation is false or that this person's motives are good, nor do I think this will all be one of those "oh - it was just a big mix up" kind of things.

 

I was asking, with all sincerity, what kind of time frame a person such as myself would be looking at until you felt comfortable releasing their ID so someone else that reads this thread does not get burned.

 

I thought that was the premise of your previous remark; so the next guy/gal does not get taken.

 

 

 

 

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The local police have been dismissive in the past with thefts under $1000.

 

Probably the thing to do is to document the transactions, make copies of them. Ask for a police sergeant to file a report. See if paypal could provide internal information on the echeck and follow up with that. At any rate if this proves to be anything other than unintentional fraud I will get a judgment against the agent of it.

 

What jurisdiction does the buyer live in? Why not contact them? Technically it is also arguably federal wire fraud if he doesn't pay, but I don't think the feds will care if it is a small amount.

 

and tell them what?

 

from ebay/paypal's point of view, the only thing the buyer did wrong was "not completing the deal", and they will give him an "unpaid item strike" on his account for it.

they can't do anything with the fact that the buyer already got the item, cause he was not supposed to.

 

 

If the buyer used a bad echeck as an artifice to obtain property under false pretenses without the intention to pay for it (if he had intended to pay for it, he would have done so and made it right), then that is absolutely fraud and is criminal. In a prosecution, it may be possible to get a restitution order from a court. Restitution is non-dischargeable in bankruptcy although the OP's judgment might not be depending on the cause of action used. Intentional torts are non dischargeable in a Chapter 7, but may be discharged in a Chapter 13 under some circumstances. The latter can be fought though the filing of an adversary proceeding, but why take the hard route? If a prosecution results, the state will do everything for the OP. It sounds like a no-brainer to me.

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I followed up with the postal inspectors after sending the person a certified letter telling him I was pursuing legal remedies against him. Tracking does not show it has been delivered to a "Mr. Raab" yet. I received an email from the inspector on Friday:

 

"I did some searching and he is not showing up in any apartments at that address. I will continue to research but am currently tied up with a case so it will not be until next week."

 

So I asked whether they have a digital record of "Dan Raab" signing for the parcel, did not get a straight answer. I have the paper copy of the express label specifically addressed to that name from me and my address.

 

I'm not sure specifically what their liability is.

 

This is a copy of the letter I sent him via electronic system in ebay and certified letter:

 

DEMAND FOR PAYMENT - INSUFFICIENT FUNDS CHECK

 

To:tjcardsandstuff@aol.com

Sent: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 09:29 AM

DATE: February 15, 2014

 

The electronic check that you submitted in payment of ebay item #s 331121455354 FR 1187 $20 GOLD NOTE NICE ISSUE PMG VF20 NET and ebay item #261389560031 1906 TWENTY DOLLAR NOTE FR#1183 PMG VF20 NET for has been rejected by your bank for

insufficient funds. Also you have not paid for the express shipment of the certified gold notes in the amount of $16. You must respond to this communication to make arrangement for payment of this demand by no later than 5:00

PM EST on Wednesday February 19, 2014.

 

Failure to do so WILL result in the following actions being taken immediately on Thursday, February 20, 2014:

 

1. A CIVIL COMPLAINT will be filed with the payment gateway. This will likely result

in a suspension of your account until the matter is resolved, or perhaps permanently.

 

2. A CRIMINAL COMPLAINT will be filed with the office of your local District Attorney,

which may result in a warrant being issued for your arrest. IT IS A CRIME in every

jurisdiction of the United States to utter insufficient funds checks, whether paper or

electronic.

 

I will be expecting to receive a telephone call from you at the number listed below by no

later than 5 PM on February 19, 2014.

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I'm not sure specifically what their liability is.

 

This is a copy of the letter I sent him via electronic system in ebay and certified letter:

 

I don't see any liability for the U.S. Postal Service here, and even if you could make out a case, sovereign immunity would seemingly be a bar unless you could prove gross negligence on their part.

 

On another note, Certified Mail is always the way to go when communicating with the "buyer" (if you would call him that at this point), and you were very wise to send a demand letter. The email serves as a nice back-up as well. This would negate any excuse that he didn't have the intent to defraud you.

 

I hope this works out. I do hope you'll continue to update this thread. It drives me nuts when someone takes advantage of the good will of someone else, so I hope the "buyer" gets what he deserves.

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