Am I naive (or just plain dumb) about CAC and major auction companies?

[James_OldeTowne]

Yesterday evening, I was chatting with an associate (collector), and he stated quite matter-of-factly that the major auction companies send all of their coins to CAC for evaluation. I argued that it couldn't possibly be true, as that would entail an enormous expense and risk just in shipping alone! Then he suggested that "well, maybe the obvious low-end coins don't go", but everything else does. And then he basically said I was a fool if I didn't think all the important coins in any auction haven't already been to CAC, and if it doesn't have a sticker, it probably doesn't deserve one.

 

Do you think this is true?? Should we assume that any coin in an auction without a sticker is a CAC reject?

 

(Please no jabs at CAC itself, as I'm just interested in the concept of everything in an auction being fourth-party-graded and the major overhead that this would seem to entail.)

 

Obviously, just about every U.S. coin in any auction is certified, so it's safe to assume that all raw coins get shipped out for certification....

[jpcienkus]

I haven't been collecting long, but I have viewed thousands of coins at Heritage and I don't agree with your colleague. I've seen Morgans over graded / under graded in NGC and PCGS plastic on the site.

 

If Heritage was sending every coin in high grade to CAC prior to auction, I would think they would need their own separate department to turn around that many coins. I guess I just don't believe your friends assertion.

[Dudley the 1st]

This just isn't true. What may be more the truth, is that the better majority of true rare coins/varieties/errors offered for auction at the major auction house sales may have at one time already been submitted to CAC for an opinion . Definitely not all though! From time to time the consignor may be advised by the auctioneer to submit the coin for obvious reasons.

[PerryHall]

When I see an expensive coin that is raw that is being sold, I wonder why it isn't slabbed. Now, when I see an expensive slabbed coin without a CAC sticker that is being sold, I wonder why it doesn't have a CAC sticker. Does any one else think the same way?

[Dudley the 1st]

Expensive does not always translate into a defined rarity or even a premium quality piece for the issue or grade. Two separate issues.

[mommam17]

PerryHall- I think that way also. On Ebay, many times, I've asked if the coin has been submitted to CAC. I feel coins should be stickered before selling if they are worthy. Who would of thought this way when CAC started? The times have changed. Maybe Mark Feld can answer the question about the auction companies submitting everything to CAC?

[DirtyGoldMan]

I expect that a majority of auction coins over $2000 in value have been to the CAC. I might be wrong on the cut-off value, but I believe that there is a number for which this statement holds true, possibly higher or even lower than $2000.

[mommam17]

Isn't Scotsman a major auction company? If you find out all coins from major auction companies are going to CAC, will Scotsman start doing the same?

[wheat'swheats]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250. According to them the % of $ that CAC adds to the coin exceeds the expense to have it stickered. one example I just saw a fairly common cent sell for $115, that same date cent in equal condition with a CAC sticker brought $175

wheat

[Dudley the 1st]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250.

wheat

 

I would agree with JA, and that is why I find the OP's associates's suggestion quite unbelievable if I understood the assertion. Face it, there are only just so many surviving ( non-modern) true rarities and many if not all have already been identified, graded and given the sticker of approval.

[wheat'swheats]

I buy often from Heritage and before I bid on any better coin I call and ask if it has been to CAC and so far all that I have asked about have. I have even asked JA if the auction houses send all to CAC and was told that they have most likely seen all of the most important pieces. There is also a major dealer that I use that sends all of their major coins to CAC. So far that has meant anything over $250.

wheat

 

I would agree with JA, and that is why I find the OP's associates's suggestion quite unbelievable if I understood the assertion. Face it, there are only just so many surviving ( non-modern) true rarities and many if not all have already been identified, graded and given the sticker of approval.

Maybe I am missing something, but what do you find unbelievable.

wheat

[BillJones]

I don't think that there is any way that this is possible. The volume of coins sent to CAC would enormous, and shipping costs would absurd. I think that with some of the more expensive material (arbitrarily $10,000 or more) CAC is definitely in play to improve the bidding prospects for the coins. I don't know if this is something that a Heritage representative would bring up with a consigner or not.

 

I'll tell you this. If you want to get a sample of CAC approved material, go through some auction boxes. Many of the coins are okay or nice for the grade, but now and then I just shake my head in confusion when I see the grade assigned and the "green football."

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Isn't Scotsman a major auction company? If you find out all coins from major auction companies are going to CAC, will Scotsman start doing the same?

I would consider Scotsman a minor auction company, but for the record, we have never sent any coin to CAC and have no plans to do so. Any CAC approved coin in our sale was already stickered before we got it. And, we don't base any of our procedures on what other auction companies do (for example, our buyer's premium has not been jacked up to 17.5%).

 

Of course, we do give the certification companies tons of business from our consignors if (in general) the consignor agrees to incur the cost of grading. For some reason, compared to other auction companies, we seem to get a lot of never-certified raw coins for auction (which I rather enjoy, actually).

 

If you want to get a sample of CAC approved material, go through some auction boxes. Many of the coins are okay or nice for the grade, but now and then I just shake my head in confusion when I see the grade assigned and the "green football."

Bill, my point of view exactly. Indeed, I wonder whether CAC hasn't actually approved too many coins, to a point where the market has become too saturated with stickers

[Dudley the 1st]

Isn't Scotsman a major auction company? If you find out all coins from major auction companies are going to CAC, will Scotsman start doing the same?

I would consider Scotsman a minor auction company, but for the record, we have never sent any coin to CAC and have no plans to do so. Any CAC approved coin in our sale was already stickered before we got it. And, we don't base any of our procedures on what other auction companies do (for example, our buyer's premium has not been jacked up to 17.5%).

 

Of course, we do give the certification companies tons of business from our consignors if (in general) the consignor agrees to incur the cost of grading. For some reason, compared to other auction companies, we seem to get a lot of never-certified raw coins for auction (which I rather enjoy, actually).

 

If you want to get a sample of CAC approved material, go through some auction boxes. Many of the coins are okay or nice for the grade, but now and then I just shake my head in confusion when I see the grade assigned and the "green football."

Bill, my point of view exactly. Indeed, I wonder whether CAC hasn't actually approved too many coins, to a point where the market has become too saturated with stickers

Spot on.

[mommam17]

Bill, my point of view exactly. Indeed, I wonder whether CAC hasn't actually approved too many coins, to a point where the market has become too saturated with stickers. I am VERY surprised that you all feel that way. I just don't see it.

[jom]

When I see an expensive coin that is raw that is being sold, I wonder why it isn't slabbed. Now, when I see an expensive slabbed coin without a CAC sticker that is being sold, I wonder why it doesn't have a CAC sticker. Does any one else think the same way?

 

I had a conversation at the last Long Beach show with another member here. We talked about this very thing and how the collecting community is so dependent on the third party (and now the FORTH party) graders. That the community seems to have lost its ability to evaluate the coin for themselves.

 

I'm sure everyone asks your "why isn't it CAC's" question now, as I do. However, that doesn't prevent me from liking or even buying a coin.

 

I do know that most collectors seem to have this "observation bias" when it comes to slabs/stickers. I remember when I was showing my 14-S half eagle I owned around to see if anyone thought it would upgrade (from 62 to 63) not ONE dealer or collector ever mentioned it might actually be a problem coin. Of course, when I cracked it out and came back "genuine" everyone now (all of a sudden) had an opinion on why it was "bagged". The "bias" is built-in to the label/sticker it seems...

 

jom

[gmarguli]

Should we assume that any coin in an auction without a sticker is a CAC reject?

 

Of course not. It's stupidity.

 

This person sounds like the same type insufficiently_thoughtful_person that before CAC would say "All NGC coins have been tried for crossover at PCGS at least once".

 

You can't help or educate people like this.

[BillJones]

Of course, when I cracked it out and came back "genuine" everyone now (all of a sudden) had an opinion on why it was "bagged". The "bias" is built-in to the label/sticker it seems...

 

I have not seen your coin, but I would not be discouraged by ONE "genuine" (in the old days body bag) opinion. When I was getting my collection certified, some of my coins come back in body bags. In two cases, I thought the body bag had no legitimate basis whatsoever. Since I view it as a waste to time to talk to these people, (after all I'm "nothing but a collector" in their eyes) I sent the coins to a "other" grading company. In both cases the coin graded the second time around in the grades that I had expected.

 

I know this is a "too small" sample, but each company was involved. One case NGC flunked an 1839-O half dollar I had, but PCGS graded it, and PCGS flunked a Flying Eagle cent which NGC graded.

 

[mommam17]

Bill- If PCGS and NGC differ on some coins, don't you think CAC and you will differ at times? Even experts don't always agree in the coin world.

 

[bsshog40]

I agree with the others as the charges for something like this would be outrageous. I'm sure many have been thru the process but not all. I also wonder, are all these professional services taking away the ability for the collector to lose his/her own ability to grade or start to doubt themselves anymore???

 

[BillJones]

Bill- If PCGS and NGC differ on some coins, don't you think CAC and you will differ at times? Even experts don't always agree in the coin world.

 

Implicit in your statement is the belief that the third party graders are consistent and that you will get the same basic opinion on each submission. They aren't consistent.

 

For example a dealer I know, who is not "slab slave" who buys and sells "a product" with a grading number on it, told me this story. He had a Proof Morgan dollar that he felt was deserving of a better grade. He cracked the piece out, sent it in, and it came back in a Mint State P-L grade. From a financial stand point this was a disaster. He cracked the coin out again, and this time it came back as a Proof in the same grade as it had been before. Having tried twice, he sold the piece "as is."

 

My point is that these guys are far from perfect, and not all of it is their fault. They don't and can't spent the time that we do going over coins before we buy them. They have quotas to meet with respect to time spent on grading so many pieces per hour. They can also get tired, and I would wager some of them don't know as much about a specific series as some of us do who have studied coins for a long time.

 

When a high official of a grading service puts down collectors who express different opinions about a piece because collectors should accept the opinions of "professionals" it piques me off. Just because you get a paycheck for grading coins does not make you superior to others who may have bought and sold or collected coins for years. It only places you in a different position in the numismatic industry.

 

[Walkerfan]

I've bought plenty of choice pieces, in that last couple of years, that would likely sticker if I sent them in. So---'no' I don't believe that EVERY coin in a major auction has been sent to CAC. Besides, that would be COSTLY, at best.

[delta]

That's a valuable posting, very many thanks BillJones. TPG graders spend only a few seconds per coin, cannot possibly be expert on every series they work on, will differ among themselves and from time to time, get tired, have personal problems, make plenty of mistakes on what are subjective judgements to begin with, and are not neutral umpires but represent the interests of their employers. Similar factors apply to CAC. Of course it's still exceedingly valuable to have slabbed graded coins instead of the preceding chaos.

 

Bill- If PCGS and NGC differ on some coins, don't you think CAC and you will differ at times? Even experts don't always agree in the coin world.

 

Implicit in your statement is the belief that the third party graders are consistent and that you will get the same basic opinion on each submission. They aren't consistent.

 

For example a dealer I know, who is not "slab slave" who buys and sells "a product" with a grading number on it, told me this story. He had a Proof Morgan dollar that he felt was deserving of a better grade. He cracked the piece out, sent it in, and it came back in a Mint State P-L grade. From a financial stand point this was a disaster. He cracked the coin out again, and this time it came back as a Proof in the same grade as it had been before. Having tried twice, he sold the piece "as is."

 

My point is that these guys are far from perfect, and not all of it is their fault. They don't and can't spent the time that we do going over coins before we buy them. They have quotas to meet with respect to time spent on grading so many pieces per hour. They can also get tired, and I would wager some of them don't know as much about a specific series as some of us do who have studied coins for a long time.

 

When a high official of a grading service puts down collectors who express different opinions about a piece because collectors should accept the opinions of "professionals" it piques me off. Just because you get a paycheck for grading coins does not make you superior to others who may have bought and sold or collected coins for years. It only places you in a different position in the numismatic industry.

[Mark T]

I send all my coins to CAC. I can see an auction company sending in the high end coins , but that would be a smart part of their total inventory. Sending in all coins or even the majority does not seem feasible.

[coinman1794]

When I see an expensive coin that is raw that is being sold, I wonder why it isn't slabbed. Now, when I see an expensive slabbed coin without a CAC sticker that is being sold, I wonder why it doesn't have a CAC sticker. Does any one else think the same way?

 

I remember rumors, a few years back, that Heritage was sending thier coins to CAC, but for the most part, I do not believe the auction companies funnel their coins throuh CAC. Further, CAC has only seen a small fraction of eligable coins, to date. I buy coins all the time that end up getting stickered when I submit them.

 

It is usually pretty easy to tell which coins will sticker, if you are a proficient grader.

[mtnstyne]

CAC has been around since late 2007. TPG's have been around for a couple decades. Most collectors I meet are quite "seasoned" and some are very much against the business of the TPGs. Let's say they are "old school" collectors.

 

I think it is naive to think that there are not a lot of very nice examples still out there in collections that have not seen the light of day for decades. Even those that have nice examples in collections for more than 4 or 5 years are extremely unlikely to have been to CAC.

 

At least I am still hopeful.

[jom]

OK, there is NO WAY Heritage is unilaterally sending in coins to CAC. If I were a seller they had better ask me before they do such a thing. And I know for a fact I've never been asking after I consign a coin.

 

However, it is certainly possible that for some far more valuable pieces I'm sure they have asked the consigner if they wanted to submit it to CAC. Why not?

 

For EVERY coin? Hardly....

 

jom

[jom]

Of course, when I cracked it out and came back "genuine" everyone now (all of a sudden) had an opinion on why it was "bagged". The "bias" is built-in to the label/sticker it seems...

 

I have not seen your coin, but I would not be discouraged by ONE "genuine" (in the old days body bag) opinion. When I was getting my collection certified, some of my coins come back in body bags. In two cases, I thought the body bag had no legitimate basis whatsoever. Since I view it as a waste to time to talk to these people, (after all I'm "nothing but a collector" in their eyes) I sent the coins to a "other" grading company. In both cases the coin graded the second time around in the grades that I had expected.

 

I know this is a "too small" sample, but each company was involved. One case NGC flunked an 1839-O half dollar I had, but PCGS graded it, and PCGS flunked a Flying Eagle cent which NGC graded.

 

Thanks for that Bill. Actually you have seen a photo because I had posted a thread about this coin a couple of years back and I remember you responded in the thread. In my case, after I cracked the coin out the first time I sent it to PCGS and got bagged. After that it went to NGC once and PCGS probably two more times. Even after the great David Hall said he saw no reason why it would NOT grade. So it made the "rounds" so to speak.

 

jom

[jom]

I think it is naive to think that there are not a lot of very nice examples still out there in collections that have not seen the light of day for decades. Even those that have nice examples in collections for more than 4 or 5 years are extremely unlikely to have been to CAC.

 

I would add there are many nice coins (IMO) that have been to CAC and failed. I own a few myself. Obviously, this is just my opinion but just because CAC rejects a coin doesn't mean it isn't nice or worth owning.

 

This is one of the unfortunate results of these slabs and stickers Somehow a coin gets a stigma when it hasn't been blessed by the TPGs and/or CAC. That is a real shame....

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

I think many here making pronouncements of 'fact' would be very surprised at what actually happens...