The Toned Peace in Legend-Morphy Auction

[PLM]

I think this is the AU58 reverse that Shane referred to:

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[TonerGuy]

Even looking at the color pics I wasnt sure this coin was a 65. Thanks Mumu for the B&Ws which more clearly show the marks. Now knowing the grade history, it becomes more apparent that its more than likely a solid 64. I dont know if the grade was given because of who owned the coin or it was just given a "bump" for color...

 

It will be interesting to see how deep someone gets buried in this coin...

 

How do you plan to determine "how deep someone gets buried in this coin"? You sound as if that is a much easier, precise and more objective process than I am aware of.

 

 

Its not easy, precise or objective. But Ive been studying toned Peace $ almost exclusively for over 10 years... I know the multiples that many of them go for on Heritage, Goldberg and on Ebay as well as shows. I know the relative size of the market... especially for the high end coins. Its not that large.

 

I do not think there is a large market for this coin the higher the price goes... many people love toned Peace $ but many dont find them attractive it all. They just dont have the "wow" factor that some toned Morgans do. If you are looking for a "wow" toned Peace $ for a type set or just to have one - this is not the coin for you - especially at $5,000 +. There are much prettier examples of common dates that can be had for $500-$3000. Unless you are trying to put together the finest complete toned Peace $ set this coin isnt necessary. And if you are - there are other 23-S examples in MS64 that are as pretty (if not prettier) that can be purchased if one is patient...

 

In my opinion, this coin shouldnt but it will hammer at MS65 prices and higher. The 64-65 price gap is over $3000.00. Thats already a huge premium for color. If this coin is truly a 64 or even a 64+ and was given the 65 by PCGS as a reflection of eye appeal thats a huge increase because of the color. To then add an additional premium for color of even 1-2 times is another huge jump of $3000 to $6000.

 

If it really is a 64, then its a $1000 coin maybe a $1500 coin to the right toned Peace $ collector. I would like this coin at that range. At $7000.00+ its going to be hard to get your money back on this coin. Maybe a hammer of $6000.00 - $7000.00 as estimated by the auction house would be reasonable (15x premium on a MS 64 and relatively no premium on a 65) for color and adding in the providence of the coin. I have seen the less common date gem MS toned Peace $ sell for slightly more then the actual grade value. I really only see the 5-10x premiums on common dates with vibrant toning.

 

I truly hope I am wrong and that this coin sells for the $20,000 as indicated by Greg... Which to some would mean that toned Peace $ have really entered the stratosphere in price and may start to command premiums usually associated with toned Morgans. Nothing would make me happier.

 

[MarkFeld]

Even looking at the color pics I wasnt sure this coin was a 65. Thanks Mumu for the B&Ws which more clearly show the marks. Now knowing the grade history, it becomes more apparent that its more than likely a solid 64. I dont know if the grade was given because of who owned the coin or it was just given a "bump" for color...

 

It will be interesting to see how deep someone gets buried in this coin...

 

How do you plan to determine "how deep someone gets buried in this coin"? You sound as if that is a much easier, precise and more objective process than I am aware of.

 

 

Its not easy, precise or objective. But Ive been studying toned Peace $ almost exclusively for over 10 years... I know the multiples that many of them go for on Heritage, Goldberg and on Ebay as well as shows. I know the relative size of the market... especially for the high end coins. Its not that large.

 

I do not think there is a large market for this coin the higher the price goes... many people love toned Peace $ but many dont find them attractive it all. They just dont have the "wow" factor that some toned Morgans do. If you are looking for a "wow" toned Peace $ for a type set or just to have one - this is not the coin for you - especially at $5,000 +. There are much prettier examples of common dates that can be had for $500-$3000. Unless you are trying to put together the finest complete toned Peace $ set this coin isnt necessary. And if you are - there are other 23-S examples in MS64 that are as pretty (if not prettier) that can be purchased if one is patient...

 

In my opinion, this coin shouldnt but it will hammer at MS65 prices and higher. The 64-65 price gap is over $3000.00. Thats already a huge premium for color. If this coin is truly a 64 or even a 64+ and was given the 65 by PCGS as a reflection of eye appeal thats a huge increase because of the color. To then add an additional premium for color of even 1-2 times is another huge jump of $3000 to $6000.

 

If it really is a 64, then its a $1000 coin maybe a $1500 coin to the right toned Peace $ collector. I would like this coin at that range. At $5000.00+ its going to be hard to get your money back on this coin. Maybe a hammer of $3000.00 - $4000.00 as estimated by the auction house would be reasonable (10x premium on a MS 64 and relatively no premium on a 65) for color and adding in the providence of the coin. I have seen the less common date gem MS toned Peace $ sell for slightly more then the actual grade value. I really only see the 5-10x premiums on common dates with vibrant toning.

 

I truly hope I am wrong and that this coin sells for the $20,000 as indicated by Greg... Which to some would mean that toned Peace $ have really entered the stratosphere in price and may start to command premiums usually associated with toned Morgans. Nothing would make me happier.

 

I don't doubt your knowledge of the toned Peace Dollar market. But seriously, won't only a future offering and/or resale of this coin determine whether the buyer of it this time around will be buried, and if so, by how much?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

So I have a real logic problem with the descriptive word "buried".

 

Is this not a relative term, directly related to the willingness and ability of the Buyer to pay for the coin?

 

It is only a detrimental term when used by the non-buyer, with or without experience, as a comment of the cost of "similar" coins (if any).

 

The buyer, at whatever the price is, will obviously not consider he/she is "buried" in a coin, if he/she is willing to pay the price it sells for.

 

Even if the coin sells at a later time for less than the Buyer paid, it does not mean the Buyer was "buried".

 

It simply means that the coin sold for less than the Buyer paid.

 

 

[mkman123]

The NGC AU58 one shown above is absolutely amazing

[mumu]

Way too many lawyers collecting coins. You guys are crazy....WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "IS"

[MarkFeld]

Too many people knowing things they can't possibly know.

[mumu]

Too many people knowing things they can't possibly know.

 

I feel Tonerguy's analysis is at least plausible and logical. I realize there will always be people who go gaga for lineage on coins and once owned by certain people they will always get recognition beyond their technical merit and therefore making it harder to be buried as hype is a very real and tangible asset in this world. But I dont think he said anything out of left field, (insert "Right Feld" pun here)

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Too many people knowing things they can't possibly know.

 

I feel Tonerguy's analysis is at least plausible and logical. I realize there will always be people who go gaga for lineage on coins and once owned by certain people they will always get recognition beyond their technical merit and therefore making it harder to be buried as hype is a very real and tangible asset in this world. But I dont think he said anything out of left field, (insert "Right Feld" pun here)

 

Except for using the word "buried" as a definitive statement.

[mumu]

Too many people knowing things they can't possibly know.

 

I feel Tonerguy's analysis is at least plausible and logical. I realize there will always be people who go gaga for lineage on coins and once owned by certain people they will always get recognition beyond their technical merit and therefore making it harder to be buried as hype is a very real and tangible asset in this world. But I dont think he said anything out of left field, (insert "Right Feld" pun here)

 

Except for using the word "buried" as a definitive statement.

 

Seems to me buried is undefined and cliche more than anything. Technically and semantically you can be burried at 1 cent under what one pays for something. Its as cliche as "underwater", "upside down", theyre all just metaphors. Definitive would be along the lines of "Someone is going to lose thousands of dollars on that coin.".

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Too many people knowing things they can't possibly know.

 

I feel Tonerguy's analysis is at least plausible and logical. I realize there will always be people who go gaga for lineage on coins and once owned by certain people they will always get recognition beyond their technical merit and therefore making it harder to be buried as hype is a very real and tangible asset in this world. But I dont think he said anything out of left field, (insert "Right Feld" pun here)

 

Except for using the word "buried" as a definitive statement.

 

Seems to me buried is undefined and cliche more than anything. Technically and semantically you can be burried at 1 cent under what one pays for something. Its as cliche as "underwater", "upside down", theyre all just metphors. Definitive would be along the lines of "Someone is going to lose thousands of dollars on that coin.".

 

OK.

I stand corrected.

[coinman_23885]

Remember that the huge photograph will exaggerate contact marks. Even if you put up a MS66 or MS67 example, it would still look badly under a high enough magnification. Here is what I see:

 

 

Edited to add: There is a small mark I see that I missed below the lowest lock of hair that overlaps with the bust. Again, I am not arguing that the coin is necessarily a gem; I still don't think anyone can reasonably grade this coin based on the photograph alone.

[mkman123]

coinman, wow great diagram with all the hits and issues the coin has!

[TonerGuy]

I slightly revised my numbers based on current grey sheet but in essence my analysis remains the same....

 

As for the word "buried" I apologize - I thought more would understand that I meant they couldnt sell the coin for what they bought it for and would lose a substantial amount of money (10%-20% on the coin - for a dealer thats a profit margin) if the coin went into the $7000+ price range (revised).

 

I think strike, color and providence carried this coin into a 65 holder. It has little chatter on the reverse Eagle's leg and breast where you usually see more marks on S mint Peace $ and the hair on the obverse is well formed.

 

S mint are notorious for weak obverse hair detail and reverse chatter. I just dont think from a technical standpoint that overcomes the hits and rim dings. I have seen 64s with less hits and equal strikes.

 

But thats why grading is just an opinion.

 

But again I hope someone pays $10,000+ for this coin. I would really like to see a toned Peace $ get into that lofty territory. If there is a coin that will - its probably this one.

 

 

 

[MJ]

The price of this coin will have little to do whether it's a 64 or 64+ or 65.

 

This coin is amazing in hand and it will go to a good home. I've never seen one posted on this forum that comes close this coin whether in pics or in hand color wise.

 

MJ

[dimefreak]

I personally feel that this Ron Sirna which is also 1923S MS65 is much nicer in appearance. Id buy it 10 times over before I bought the one in the OP.... Of course thats based upon pics

 

[TonerGuy]

I personally feel that this Ron Sirna which is also 1923S MS65 is much nicer in appearance. Id buy it 10 times over before I bought the one in the OP.... Of course thats based upon pics

 

 

+1

 

Just beautiful color. Thank you for posting that.

[mkman123]

That's a pretty peace....how much did that one go for?

[MarkFeld]

I viewed the coin in hand today. I have no problem or argument with the assigned grade and think it's stunning.

[nk1nk]

I viewed the coin in hand today. I have no problem or argument with the assigned grade and think it's stunning.

 

Now that Ankur will be in the running, I change my guess to $19,000.

 

Nick

[robec1347]

This 1922 belongs to Toneddollars.

 

It was posted in a PCGS thread close to 4 years ago. The thread was started by Homerunhall and referenced the fact the all toned Peace dollars were, in his opinion, AT.

 

He made this comment about the Toneddollar Peace dollar.

 

"I believe the reverse toning on "Toned Dollars" 1922 is probably natural. It sure looks good to me.

 

Like I said...I may be wrong...but...

 

I can tell you that most of the ones I see look AT to me.

 

HRH"

 

 

[MarkFeld]

This 1922 belongs to Toneddollars.

 

It was posted in a PCGS thread close to 4 years ago. The thread was started by Homerunhall and referenced the fact the all toned Peace dollars were, in his opinion, AT.......

 

 

I think his comment pertained to Peace Dollars displayng (something to the effect of) rainbow colors, not "all toned Pece dollars".

[mumu]

This 1922 belongs to Toneddollars.

 

It was posted in a PCGS thread close to 4 years ago. The thread was started by Homerunhall and referenced the fact the all toned Peace dollars were, in his opinion, AT.......

 

 

I think his comment pertained to Peace Dollars displayng (something to the effect of) rainbow colors, not "all toned Pece dollars".

 

It's weird to say that while calling a very rainbow colored one OK. My guess is he has seen like 5 his entire life or something so he has no clue. He did use the word ALL at one point though and the 1921 Coinfacts P$ page for a long time had pretty much the same quote under it while describing the type.

[robec1347]

This 1922 belongs to Toneddollars.

 

It was posted in a PCGS thread close to 4 years ago. The thread was started by Homerunhall and referenced the fact the all toned Peace dollars were, in his opinion, AT.......

 

 

I think his comment pertained to Peace Dollars displayng (something to the effect of) rainbow colors, not "all toned Pece dollars".

 

I think you are correct Mark. I didn't refresh my memory by reading his first post.

[mumu]

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

Thats the coin facts quote. His forum post was a little more generic and may have said just toned rather than rainbow. But who is really questioned brows mottle splotches, of course rainbow found colors are whats inplied.

[TonerGuy]

I viewed the coin in hand today. I have no problem or argument with the assigned grade and think it's stunning.

 

Now that you have seen in hand what do you think the hammer price will be ?

 

 

[TonerGuy]

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

...

 

[toneddollars]

1922-D

[robec1347]

"Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins."

 

Thats the coin facts quote. His forum post was a little more generic and may have said just toned rather than rainbow. But who is really questioned brows mottle splotches, of course rainbow found colors are whats inplied.

 

His post was very similar to what he had to say in CoinFacts.

Here's a little controversy...do naturally rainbow toned Peace dollars exist...I don't think so. Here's what I said on PCGS CoinFacts...

 

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

 

So...I never saw a single Rainbow toned Peace dollar in the 1960s or 1970s, but of course I saw thousands of rainbow Morgans. Perhaps the silver was a little different, or handled a little different. You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

 

[MJ]

That Sirna Peace is indeed spectacular. MJ