Ethics Exercise

[RockMyAmadeus]

You are in a B&M shop that has been in business for decades.

 

They have, mixed in with their common junk, an expensive date/mint example.

 

The junk box is priced in cents, while this expensive date/mint example is worth hundreds of dollars.

 

Points to consider:

 

1. Dealer has been in business for many, many years, and knows his/her stuff.

 

2. Dealer could have potentially seeded the common box with an expensive date/mint to spur interest (yes, very far fetched in this example, but a common practice nonetheless.)

 

3. If dealer was unaware of the ultra-rare date/mint, he/she could have bought it as part of a bulk purchase him/herself for pennies as well.

 

What do you do?

[RWB]

A knowledgeable seller offers items at specific prices. It is up to the buyer to decide if the prices are too high, or to pay the seller’s asking price. The buyer has no obligation to share his thoughts or conjectures with a knowledgeable seller: either party could be right or wrong in their assessment of the value of any of the items.

[Racer-X]

A knowledgeable seller offers items at specific prices. It is up to the buyer to decide if the prices are too high, or to pay the seller’s asking price. The buyer has no obligation to share his thoughts or conjectures with a knowledgeable seller: either party could be right or wrong in their assessment of the value of any of the items.

 

I respectfully disagree:

 

1. Collectors/dealers know the range of values an item could have

 

2. If a very valuable item is mixed in with junk items, it must be a fake or a mistake

 

3. The right thing to do is to call this to the seller's attention

 

Just my pair o' pennies...

[e1cnr]

you could always pull it out and ask if the price is right on this on -

[BillJones]

For me it depends upon the attitude of the seller, and the relationship I have with him. If I found such an item in the junk box of a dealer I knew and respected I would discuss the situation with him. If I wanted the piece, I would expect him to make a reasonable to offer to me. I value relationships with dealers I respect, and I'm willing to help them out if they cut me a breatk now and then.

 

If I'm dealing with a sleaze ball, the rules are different. Let's say I find a rare die variety that I've wanted for years in the inventory of a dealer for whom I have no respect. I'll tell you what can happen if you share your knowledge with a guy like that because it's happened to me. You tell him what the piece is and then the price either goes sky high, or more often than not he will refuse to offer it to you at any price. Now he is going to sell it to "god" for more money than he ever imaged. I've been there, done that, and I won't make that mistake again.

 

One time a dealer gave me long lecture about how much expertise he had in a given series right off the bat. Then I started going though his inventory of that series, and I found a rare variety that is just below the condition census for that die combination. I asked the price and the guy quotes me a high retail number for the "normal" coin and further states that he will not negotiate on the price. Furthermore I have pay an extra charge for the custom made holder I don't want that the coin is in (one coin in holder with 16 openings).

 

Okay, Mr. Ethics, what you going to do? Are you going to tell this bozo what he has and probably end up not being able to buy the coin, or are you going to pay his price and shut up? Condemn me if you will, but I paid his price.

 

[cpm9ball]

Ha! This is an easy one for me. There are two dealers in my area, and I wouldn't tell them it was raining outside if their windows were down.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

To me, this is a tough one.

 

Scenario 1) I am confident that if I knew the seller and thought he was a fair and honest person, I would let him know.

 

Scenario 2) On the other hand, if I knew otherwise, I doubt I would say anything.

 

Scenario 3) If it were someone I didn't know, I'm not sure what I would do.

 

The above notwithstanding, my answer might change in scenarios 2) and 3) if I could be certain that the dealer would then pay extra to the person from whom he acquired the coin.

[RWB]

Many collectors pay their "dues" learning from expensive mistakes. I see nothing wrong with using knowledge to one's own advantage, provided the other party presents themselves as knowledgeable. (That is: not telling Granny she has a $20,000 coin is wrong.)

 

What is "knowledgeable?" Anytime a person or business presents itself as a "dealer," "professional" or otherwise, then the playing field is level. I recall stories of Wally Breen digging through dealer's junk boxes and finding unattributed patterns and badly worn early cents and other items later sold for hundreds of dollars. Wally had worked for the knowledge he had. Maybe the dealers who put out those junk boxes didn't care.

 

(A more recent occurrence -- allegedly, a notable dealer was going through another dealer's box of junk tokens and found a WW-II experimental piece. He bought some tokens including the one mentioned, then had it slabbed at the ANA and offered it at a tidy advance of his 50-cent purchase price.)

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Something in me says that the only right answer is to tell the dealer, no matter who it is. However, in real life, that is a very hard thing to do when you don't like the dealer.

[BillJones]

Something in me says that the only right answer is to tell the dealer, no matter who it is. However, in real life, that is a very hard thing to do when you don't like the dealer.

 

Some dealers don't deserve your respect or your free expertise because they don't respect you, your honesty or your ethics.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Quick story, similar to the scenario presented above. In 1995-ish, while I was in college (and thus, poor by definition), I frequented a comic shop called Atlantis Fantasyworld in Santa Cruz, CA. Been around for 35+ years, it was actually the store featured in the film the Lost Boys.

 

I was scouring their 25 cent box, and found an Incredible Hulk #104. Worth about $10-$20 at the time, it wasn't worth hundreds, but it definitely wasn't a quarter book either. I pointed it out to the clerk, and asked if it was supposed to be in there, and they quickly grabbed it and said no.

 

Naive as I was, I suppose I expected some sort of token of appreciation, maybe some small discount or some freebie for my honesty. After all, I bought dozens of quarter books all the time, and no one would have known that book was in there had I said nothing and just bought my usual stack.

 

I didn't even get a thank you.

 

I don't know why that book was in there. Maybe someone else who worked at the store put it there on purpose. Maybe a nefarious customer slipped it out of its bag and put it there, only to "discover" it later. Maybe someone at the store made a mistake.

 

Of the several years that I spent going to that store, that single incident is what I remember most about my time there. The store didn't owe me anything, and maybe they even may have thought that I put it there myself...but I have always felt it was a little cheap to be more concerned with $10-$20, than with even saying "thanks for pointing that out" to a customer. I will say this: had they given that $10-$20 book to this poor college student for a quarter, I probably would have told everyone I know about it for years. How much would that kind of advertising be worth....?

 

And to this day, I have never said a word about what may or may not be in "the cheap boxes" as it relates to comic books.

 

Thanks for the replies so far!

[physics-fan3.14]

I will say this - I keep searching dealer's albums for an unattributed 53S FBL Franklin. The day I see one, I will not say anything.

[bsshog40]

I'm kind of in the majority as the others.

If it's a dealer I know and respect, I would make him/her aware of it.

If it's a dealer I've seen take others and I have no respect for, wouldn't tell him anything!

If it's a dealer I've never dealt with, hoping that there's other customers in the shop, I would see how he treats others before I made my decision.

 

[newprepper]

Having only been to 1 coin shop, that doubled as a pawn shop also. I would expect the dealer to have done his due diligence and checked his inventory for anything special. Usually when I stopped the people behind the counter would be doing nothing. that would be a perfect opportunity to check bulk purchases. I dare say that if that happened to me I would purchase it at his price. I offered some 40% halves when melt was a little below 5, was offered 2. I wouldn't feel bad about it at all in that case. Maybe thats a good test, offer to sell something, see what kind of offer you get, fair or lowball and decide how you will go forward. Meet his integrity level

[RWB]

One cannot presume the knowledge or actions of others with whom one is not acquainted. Presenting inventory for sale as a dealer says to the world that the “dealer” knows what he or she is doing in relation to the material offered for sale. Maybe they don't care about FBL Franklins [i don't -- ], and just want to quickly flip inventory....not up to me to second guess the dealer's motives.

 

Granted, if there is an established relationship – even from afar – with the dealer, I’ll let them know something is out of place. Absent that, I must presume the dealer knows that certified double eagles are probably worth more than $1,000 and there is some reason for that being the asking price.

 

[cpm9ball]

One cannot presume the knowledge or actions of others with whom one is not acquainted. Presenting inventory for sale as a dealer says to the world that the “dealer” knows what he or she is doing in relation to the material offered for sale. Maybe they don't care about FBL Franklins [i don't -- ], and just want to quickly flip inventory....not up to me to second guess the dealer's motives.

 

Granted, if there is an established relationship – even from afar – with the dealer, I’ll let them know something is out of place. Absent that, I must presume the dealer knows that certified double eagles are probably worth more than $1,000 and there is some reason for that being the asking price.

 

Roger, have you ever considered that maybe his wife is suing him for divorce and he wants to sell cheap and get out of Dodge?

 

Chris

[newprepper]

One cannot presume the knowledge or actions of others with whom one is not acquainted. Presenting inventory for sale as a dealer says to the world that the “dealer” knows what he or she is doing in relation to the material offered for sale. Maybe they don't care about FBL Franklins [i don't -- ], and just want to quickly flip inventory....not up to me to second guess the dealer's motives.

 

Granted, if there is an established relationship – even from afar – with the dealer, I’ll let them know something is out of place. Absent that, I must presume the dealer knows that certified double eagles are probably worth more than $1,000 and there is some reason for that being the asking price.

 

Roger, have you ever considered that maybe his wife is suing him for divorce and he wants to sell cheap and get out of Dodge?

 

Chris

 

So you are saying that you would be doing him a favor by taking his premium inventory for pennies on the dollar

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I have not detected an example of Ethic or Ethics in opinions, at this point.

[Walkerfan]

I would BUY IT for the cents it is priced at. I KNOW for a fact that my dealer would do that to me in a NY heartbeat. I have numerous examples of him doing so and he has even bragged about such things that he has done to others to me. I have absolutely nothing against him and we are good friends. He has helped me out in MANY instances but I never forget just WHO I am fooling with. But that is just, unfortunately, part of the coin business or the nature of the beast.

 

If my dealer were a Mark Feld or similar type person, then that would change the WHOLE DYNAMIC and I would not feel comfortable doing something like this and I would likely alert him. I am being completely serious and NOT saying this just because Mark will likely read this thread. The point I make is that different players play by different rules, so it depends upon with whom I am playing the giant game of numismatics. It's like a basketball game---i.e. in the broad range of the spectrum you are either playing in the Olympics/NBA or you are playing prison ball. The difference is HUGE and the appropriate rules for each MUST apply.

[World Colonial]

I do not buy from dealers often and never have in person except at the ANA conventions. But under MOST circumstances, I would have no problem buying a coin at their asking price even if I knew it was "too low". I worked for the knowledge I have in my world coin specialties and if the dealer does not choose to make the effort or cannot be bothered to know what the coins they are selling are actually worth, that is their problem and not mine.

 

A couple of other factors in my thinking are these:

 

All of my series are illiquid, so what a specific coin is "worth" may change a lot from one sale to the next and I certainly am not going to accidentally overpay for sentimental reasons.

 

Second, this hypothetical would primarily apply to ungraded coins and I am not going to accept the risk that I might overgrade a coin either by paying "full price" for it. Many or even most of the graded coins I see are on eBay and frequently sold by dealers. The problem more often that not is not that their asking prices are "too low", but that they are absurdly high. Anyone buying anywhere near these prices is on the opposite side of this scenario.

 

Third, I have bought many coins at auction for much less than what they were worth. Most on eBay but also at traditional auctions. Some of these sellers were dealers and some not but I considered myself under no obligation to voluntarily pay more. I do not see that this scenario really differs. It just turned out in some instances that I knew more about the coin than both the seller and presumably the other bidders (or else the price would have been higher).

 

Fourth, the coins I have bought the cheapest through a dealer are by mail where I can return them, but cannot inspect them in person first before I pay for them. I am buying them "blind" because I do not even see an image first. This dealer is a specialist in British Commonwealth coinage. On one occasion, I bought a 1932 penny from his price list graded "sharp EF" for $20. After conservation, NGC graded it MS-63 BN and since this is the scarcest South Africa circulating bronze (by far), obviously it was worth a lot more than the $60 I had in it.

 

What I do with this dealer is that I keep the good coins I buy from him and I "eat" any losses from the problem coins I receive of which there have been more than a few. I consider it the fairest trade-off without putting myself in a position to lose money, regularly returning coins which would otherwise annoy him and doing work for him that he should be doing himself.

[coinman_23885]

If a dealer is too lazy to search his or inventory then I am unsympathetic to him or her.

[coinman_23885]

Something in me says that the only right answer is to tell the dealer, no matter who it is. However, in real life, that is a very hard thing to do when you don't like the dealer.

 

Some dealers don't deserve your respect or your free expertise because they don't respect you, your honesty or your ethics.

 

+1

[coinman_23885]

A knowledgeable seller offers items at specific prices. It is up to the buyer to decide if the prices are too high, or to pay the seller’s asking price. The buyer has no obligation to share his thoughts or conjectures with a knowledgeable seller: either party could be right or wrong in their assessment of the value of any of the items.

 

+1

[coinman_23885]

One cannot presume the knowledge or actions of others with whom one is not acquainted.

 

For me, it is not actual knowledge per se. My litmus test is this: if the seller knew or should have known the true value of the piece, then I would not reveal the true value of the item and would pay the marked price. If the seller did not know and there is no reason to believe that he or she should have known, I would reveal the value of the item and make an offer that is fair to both parties while rewarding my knowledge and observation.

 

For people who represent themselves as professional numismatists or who regularly sell coins commercially, I believe that they should know what they are doing. If they don't, it is time for them to learn. Even if the item is outside of your series, the seller should at least perform some basic research. The date and mint mark should have been a give away to anyone who had researched the piece.

 

Collectors often pay their dues with the inflated prices charged by brick and mortar shops, and I see no reason why dealers shouldn't share the common experience.

[PerryHall]

If a dealer is too lazy to search his or inventory then I am unsympathetic to him or her.

 

This is how I feel. Unless it's an obvious case of human error, I don't feel it's my job to educate a coin dealer. The chances are he paid far less that what he is pricing his coin at.

[Nutmeg Coin]

IMO there is not enough time spent educating one another on the market and value across the board in numismatics. I'm always ready to provide invoices for customers to submit to CAC or the grading services. For me the days when it was every man (or woman) for themselves should end. Yes, if you have collectors or dealers who are basically congenital liers the rules may be somewhat different of educating and clarification.

 

I was at a show the other day where a dealer offered a rare Panda coin to another dealer and he asked how much she wanted for it? He said if she had called him when he had access to the CCE databases, etc., he could have given her a good idea of what the market was. She was not happy with the "how much do you want for it?" line.

 

When we are talking about ethics the question is which code? Some here have had business ethics and business law courses which have a strong correlation. For many business people all is fair as long as two agree.

 

"It is naught, it is naught, saith the buyer: but when he is gone his way, then he boasteth". Proverbs 20:14

[BillJones]

One other aspect of this has to do with the markets a dealer serves or knows about. If you are not part of the "in group" in a number of die variety collector clubs, you don't get the best prices. If you don't know who the major dealers are among the die variety collectors, or don't have a working relationship with them, you won't get the best prices. In short it's not only a matter of being able to identify a rare variety although that's a great start. It also depends upon how you can market it.

 

Look at this way. Under the right circumstances a variety might be worth $2,000 to the ultimate consumer, but if you are guy in the middle before it reaches that collector you can't pay $2,000 for it or even a number close to that. You might be perfectly ethical if you pay $1,000 if all you can get it $1,300. And yes the mark-ups on some of these items are higher because they are tougher to sell. Dealers flip 1907 High Relief $20 gold coins for small mark-ups because they are fairly liquid and easy to sell. One can't say that for an esoteric die variety.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Ethically, you are under no obligation whatsoever to bring a pricing error to the attention of the seller, provided the seller is proficient and experienced in what he sells.

 

I think you have actually posed a question of MORALS, not ETHICS.

 

Morally, if you will sleep better at night believing you've evaded the allure of (your) greed and helped the dealer realize fairer value for his coins, then you did the right thing by bringing the issue to his attention.

[mtnstyne]

So far with my experience with dealers I would pay and walk out the door at the discounted price.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think you have actually posed a question of MORALS, not ETHICS..

 

 

There's an awful lot of blurring, and crossover, between those two concepts...