Latest Legend Hot Topics featuring a puttied $10 Indian

[AnkurJ]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

 

In response to not much being done to stop the auction....I think all that can be done is to email the seller to inform him. Ebay will not do anything to stop the auction because the coin is authentic, even though it has been altered.

 

As a part time dealer, I have seen puttied coins at shows, and pointed it out to the dealer that has it. But in general their response is just a shrug. Laura is right. If people keep shrugging these things off, it will make the market worse and worse.

[Arizonadesertrat]

She made another comment, about coin doctors serving as instructors at this year's ANA summer seminar. That is more shocking. I met one of them at the first summer session.

[mumu]

Wasnt Willis' response in that thread that puttied coins are still beautiful coins? There you go, nothing wrong here

[mumu]

"PCGS should buy this coin from the seller and destroy it!

 

Believe it or not, the coin is probably very nice. We may downgrade it, or not. All the putty will come off with an acetone wash. Coin doctors applied putty to cover the slightest imperfections. Sometimes they got the higher grade. Sometimes they didn't. I have seen a lot of coins where we have removed the putty and I thought it looked great.

 

When applied as intended putty is invisible. It turns milky in a few months. The milkiness should be very obvious to any knowledgeable collector or dealer.

 

Today we have tools to help us detect doctored coins that we didn't have years ago. If you see or suspect a coin to be puttied please let me know. No PCGS dealer should sell an obviously puttied coin.

 

All this is a good exercise as to why you should be buying only PCGS coins. No matter how many years pass after we authenticate and grade a coin our unlimited guarantee still applies. Don't listen to all the nonsense out there - PCGS buys back any problem coin that we have holdered - no one else.

 

Where else can you buy a lifetime guarantee on any other product?

"

 

Nice corporate response there. Hall had a much more true to the collector response. You can tell who the "good for the hobby" guy is there

[AnkurJ]

Also I doubt PCGS tried to find out where the puttied coin originated from. Get to the bottom of it and have this dealer stop malicious practices! This is one reason why many gold coins in OGH's are not always the best coins to buy in my opinion.

 

I would love to know WHO the ANA teacher was who is a known coin doctor. If someone would please post it here or PM me I would appreciate it.

[e1cnr]

It is great that PCGS now has their sniffer (if it does what they say) to help protect collectors from this sort of fraud. It will help in future coin downgrades and loss (cough,cough...PCGS paying on their guarantee, because they are better graders and authenticators than investor collectors)

 

who knows what is under that coating, a scratch.. whizzing.. a ms62 that the fraudster killed the luster on

[dimefreak]

I understand where Laura is coming from with not wanting to employ coin doctors, but at the end of the day they probably know more about the surfaces of coins than most.

[zboyle04]

looks horrible, i doubt anyone would buy it

[jom]

I actually agree with Don's response. The puttied coins CAN be fixed...I've seen them.

 

I also agree with Laura about the doctoring. This kind of thing has been going on forever...fake toning has been getting in holders for 20 years or more yet everyone continues to deny it.

 

Interesting to see where this goes....

 

jom

[Kurtdog]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

This article reads to me like nothing better than a crude attempt at a campaign speech by a candidate bucking for a spot on the ANA board. I'm sorry but there are other more productive means of dealing with a problem like this that this article is seemingly going out of its way to ignore. One such obvious one is to hold the TPGs accountable, in the first instance. The TPGs know who submitted these coins. All they'd have to do is publicize that factual information. That would stop these deceptive practices quicker than anything as it would put those submitters in fear of incurring tarnished reputations. Once those reputations go, who's going to continue to give those submitters business? They're all but finished in the coin market, and, most certainly, in the TPG coin market. The TPGs then maintain a "black book" of said submitters in much the same way casinos maintain same on casino cheats. These are coin cheats, right? Publish the book on their websites. Again, it's just factual information. Campaign for that; let the ANA alone.

[MarkFeld]

Wasnt Willis' response in that thread that puttied coins are still beautiful coins? There you go, nothing wrong here

 

No, that was not his response. You have unfairly mischaracterized it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

How incredibly sad that avarice has corrupted so many people into spoiling the thrill for everyone. Everyone has to be an expert before laying down any money on anything, even graded coins. Just sad.

[dimefreak]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

This article reads to me like nothing better than a crude attempt at a campaign speech by a candidate bucking for a spot on the ANA board. I'm sorry but there are other more productive means of dealing with a problem like this that this article is seemingly going out of its way to ignore. One such obvious one is to hold the TPGs accountable, in the first instance. The TPGs know who submitted these coins. All they'd have to do is publicize that factual information. That would stop these deceptive practices quicker than anything as it would put those submitters in fear of incurring tarnished reputations. Once those reputations go, who's going to continue to give those submitters business? They're all but finished in the coin market, and, most certainly, in the TPG coin market. The TPGs then maintain a "black book" of said submitters in much the same way casinos maintain same on casino cheats. These are coin cheats, right? Publish the book on their websites. Again, it's just factual information. Campaign for that; let the ANA alone.

 

Its my understanding that the TPG's do have a black book, but im not sure if they are legally able to publish the names.

[mkman123]

Can they putty silver coins like high grade morgans?

[Kurtdog]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

This article reads to me like nothing better than a crude attempt at a campaign speech by a candidate bucking for a spot on the ANA board. I'm sorry but there are other more productive means of dealing with a problem like this that this article is seemingly going out of its way to ignore. One such obvious one is to hold the TPGs accountable, in the first instance. The TPGs know who submitted these coins. All they'd have to do is publicize that factual information. That would stop these deceptive practices quicker than anything as it would put those submitters in fear of incurring tarnished reputations. Once those reputations go, who's going to continue to give those submitters business? They're all but finished in the coin market, and, most certainly, in the TPG coin market. The TPGs then maintain a "black book" of said submitters in much the same way casinos maintain same on casino cheats. These are coin cheats, right? Publish the book on their websites. Again, it's just factual information. Campaign for that; let the ANA alone.

 

Its my understanding that the TPG's do have a black book, but im not sure if they are legally able to publish the names.

Dimefreak, they just publish on their websites the names of the submitters of the coins that went bad in their slabs. Why? Who cares why? But, in this case, we know why--to give the public a heads up on these submitters. Just don't go crazy and make charges that aren't supported by facts. Truth, understand, is a defense to defamation. Just keep it factual, "these are the names of the submitters of these coins that went bad in our slabs," and they'll be fine.

[coinman_23885]

I think PCGS and NGC should actively seek out these coins and purchase them to take them off the markets. PCGS and NGC should even consider offering a small "finder's fee" for people who bring such coins to their attention (even if the coins are not theirs), so that they can contact the owner and remove the coin from the market. This "finder's fee" or reward could even come in the form of discounted grading. This is the approach that I would take if I owned a TPG. They would come out ahead in the long run.

[mkman123]

I agree with coinman!

[coinman_23885]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

This article reads to me like nothing better than a crude attempt at a campaign speech by a candidate bucking for a spot on the ANA board. I'm sorry but there are other more productive means of dealing with a problem like this that this article is seemingly going out of its way to ignore. One such obvious one is to hold the TPGs accountable, in the first instance. The TPGs know who submitted these coins. All they'd have to do is publicize that factual information. That would stop these deceptive practices quicker than anything as it would put those submitters in fear of incurring tarnished reputations. Once those reputations go, who's going to continue to give those submitters business? They're all but finished in the coin market, and, most certainly, in the TPG coin market. The TPGs then maintain a "black book" of said submitters in much the same way casinos maintain same on casino cheats. These are coin cheats, right? Publish the book on their websites. Again, it's just factual information. Campaign for that; let the ANA alone.

 

Its my understanding that the TPG's do have a black book, but im not sure if they are legally able to publish the names.

Dimefreak, they just publish on their websites the names of the submitters of the coins that went bad in their slabs. Why? Who cares why? But, in this case, we know why--to give the public a heads up on these submitters. Just don't go crazy and make charges that aren't supported by facts. Truth, understand, is a defense to defamation. Just keep it factual, "these are the names of the submitters of these coins that went bad in our slabs," and they'll be fine.

 

I agree with Dimefreak that this is more trouble than it is worth. What happens if a submitter is actually a victim him or herself? Of course, the odds of this decrease with an increase in the number of doctored submissions, but there are potential issues. Also remember that even though "truth is a good defense" to defamation suits and the like, the company is still forced to hire an attorney to defend against potentially frivolous actions. Moreover, the banned submitters will just submit under someone else's name. It isn't that complicated.

 

PCGS and NGC should both actively investigate these matters, and once (and if) clear and convincing proof can be established, the TPGs might consider suing for civil damages and perhaps an injunction against major violators/coin doctors (although of course, I didn't follow the PCGS suit, I should probably read this to determine the efficacy of this method). Violation of an injunction could lead to civil (and possibly criminal sanctions after a while), if a court order is repeatedly ignored.

[coinman_23885]

I understand where Laura is coming from with not wanting to employ coin doctors, but at the end of the day they probably know more about the surfaces of coins than most.

 

I would like to know who these two alleged doctors are.

[coinman_23885]

The one that was posted ATS.

 

http://www.legendcoin.com/cgi-bin/inventory/cms2.pl?page=hot_topics

This article reads to me like nothing better than a crude attempt at a campaign speech by a candidate bucking for a spot on the ANA board....

 

I don't think Laura is motivated by a desire to be President of the ANA; rather, she has repeatedly demonstrated a genuine interest in combating coin doctoring and protecting collectors. Her seeking election to the ANA would, perhaps, afford her a means to do this or at least try something new. I have always found Laura willing to put her money where her mouth is so to speak - I have no doubt that her post was out of a genuine concern about the fraud perpetrated by doctors.

[James_OldeTowne]

The article on the Legend website, in my opinion, severely overstates the impact of such doctored coins on the hobby.

 

Is it a problem?

Yes, of course it is.

 

Is it a "perfect example of what is seriously hurting EVERYONE in the hobby"?

Hardly.

 

And do I believe "WHEN A BOZO MESSES UP A COIN LIKE ABOVE IT COSTS US ALL"?

Definitely not. It affects a narrow portion of the market, and not remotely "ALL" of us.

 

Unfortunately, while I greatly dislike such attempts to bolster the apparent grade of a gold coin by applying putty, it's difficult to buy into an argument that is so filled with hyperbole, severe exaggeration, and misleading statements. This sort of attitude actually makes it more difficult to do battle with those who damage the hobby.

[grip]

Interesting,and to think how deep and wide spread this could be.

[mumu]

Wasnt Willis' response in that thread that puttied coins are still beautiful coins? There you go, nothing wrong here

 

No, that was not his response. You have unfairly mischaracterized it.

 

"Believe it or not, the coin is probably very nice. We may downgrade it, or not. All the putty will come off with an acetone wash.

"

 

I dunno. At the very least he is saying that about THIS coin. And since he is saying it from a pic rather than in hand I think its safe to assume hed say that about any.

[Kurtdog]

I agree with Dimefreak that this is more trouble than it is worth. What happens if a submitter is actually a victim him or herself? Of course, the odds of this decrease with an increase in the number of doctored submissions, but there are potential issues. Also remember that even though "truth is a good defense" to defamation suits and the like, the company is still forced to hire an attorney to defend against potentially frivolous actions. Moreover, the banned submitters will just submit under someone else's name. It isn't that complicated.

 

PCGS and NGC should both actively investigate these matters, and once (and if) clear and convincing proof can be established, the TPGs might consider suing for civil damages and perhaps an injunction against major violators/coin doctors (although of course, I didn't follow the PCGS suit, I should probably read this to determine the efficacy of this method). Violation of an injunction could lead to civil (and possibly criminal sanctions after a while), if a court order is repeatedly ignored.

We’ll agree to disagree on the merits of this one. IMHO, PCGS doesn’t even want to do anything about this, anyway. If it did, what I suggested, earlier, would have occurred to them, but it didn’t. That frivolous complaint of theirs that was never served within the three months allotted and a three month extension on top of that was for headlines purposes and to keep that captive audience of theirs captivated. Considering the totality of the circumstances, that's the only way it adds up.

[Kurtdog]

I don't think Laura is motivated by a desire to be President of the ANA; rather, she has repeatedly demonstrated a genuine interest in combating coin doctoring and protecting collectors. Her seeking election to the ANA would, perhaps, afford her a means to do this or at least try something new. I have always found Laura willing to put her money where her mouth is so to speak - I have no doubt that her post was out of a genuine concern about the fraud perpetrated by doctors.

This is only typical. When you’re stuck, fall back on motives. Let motives decide the merits of the issue. Similarly, is it NT or AT? Well, that depends on one’s motives, right? Did one intend to tarnish the coin, or did that just happen by accident, without one’s being aware it would happen? Intent, that’s the key that unlocks that mystery. Now we’re getting someplace. Forget that these standards are irrational and arbitrary. Forget that’s the reason that PCGS complaint was never fired at any of the named defendants and as such got kicked out of federal court. They’re better than nothing, aren’t they? Yeah, that’s some recommendation...

 

Look, give this poor, confused dealer in rare coins a medal for her good motives. How’s that?

[Oldtrader3]

I personally do not know what Laura Sperber's motives may be beyond the fact that she has been blowing the whistle on doctor's and puttied coins for at least 10 years or so! From things that she has said about PNG and ANA over the years, I don't think being President of either organization is in the cards for her any time soon, frankly.

 

On the topic of puttied coins. If they are done with Bondex, you can see them with a black light because the FTC requires that Bondex have a UV dye in it to check for auto repair fraud.

 

I have reported several gold coins that were puttied and listed in several large auctions for a couple of large auction houses that I have done business with over the years. In only one case was the coin withheld from bidding. The other dealers went ahead and sold the coin despite admitting that it was puttied because they said: "the hammer price will reflect the alteration of the coin"! This is, of course patent nonsense because the hammer price did not reflect anything except that some collector got hosed!

 

So much for the courage and truthfulness of dealers, even large-national ones, when it may cost them a few bucks or more! This topic surfaces every now and then but mostly from Laura Sperber. No other national dealers seem to care enough or be brave enough to break ranks on ignoring this problem or pretending that it does not exist in large numbers, which simply is not true.

 

The real facts are, that the TPG's could do a ball stylus hardness test (non destructive) on any coin that they suspected of being puttied but they won't do it because they are afraid to offend their large submitter customers and thereby lose revenues. Their sniveling about the problem is a diversion from the reality of not really wanting to deal with the issue and hoping it will go away by whining but not doing anything substantive and test for it.

[James_OldeTowne]

Puttied coins are a problem and a reality in the numismatic landscape, but personally, I do not believe the problem is nearly as widespread across the entire spectrum of gold coins as some would have us believe. It is likely more prevalent at the upper echelon of gold, where a point's difference in grade matters a lot. But in the huge majority of the certified gold population, it's a tiny problem.

 

I have viewed thousands and thousands of gold coins in the MS-62 to MS-63 grade range in slabs, and in reality, a minuscule number have been puttied. I believe a FAR more widespread problem is gold that has been dipped and cleaned. Unfortunately, "dipping" and destroying a coin's original character is viewed in far more favorable light for some reason than adding putty to a coin.

[Oldtrader3]

I absolutely agree James! It is not in the common date Saints or 20th century half eagles or those coins which are the issue. This, because they sell pretty close to melt which makes alteration a non-profit activity.

 

I have been looking at and collecting gold coins since the mid 1960's and probably 98% of the puttied gold coins which I have seen listed in auctions since about 1975 were collector coins with better dates or MM's. Probably most were coins minted between 1839 to 1880, plus some later CC and better date stuff.

 

I have not bothered to tally the more egregiously altered coins which I have seen as a percentage of any offering total in an auction. However, most offerings in any auction, are more common dates and/or higher grade gold which are not usually puttied coins for reasons already stated.

 

As you are aware, collector grade (AU on up), better date/MM coins with a premium pricing range are always in short supply at any auction. This makes the problem a small number of a small number but I usually can pick one or more altered gold coins out of any larger auction house offering and they all are in slabs from NGC or PCGS because the putty won't work if it is not encapsulated! If I can see these on an internet scan, the auction "expert staff members" must be blind?

 

I am aware that they are sometimes extremely hard to spot these coins unless the putty is discolored by age. However, it would be fairly easy to find these coins by several test methods while the coins are being graded, all of which are nondestructive. For instance, through dielectric measurement or mechanical testing in line with grading. Or even an inspection laser tuned to see spectral differences between metal and plastic. Considering that a collector pays about $40+ a pop to grade better gold now, I just wonder why more is not done to eliminate this issue. Just my take on this having automated other types of more difficult inspection, in line, many times. Just thinking a little out of the box!

 

Maybe the issue is small in numbers but it gives the coin industry a big black eye with discerning collectors because nobody even tries to do anything tangible (except talk) about this problem! How many advanced collectors have quit this board because of coin doctor's destructive doings (rhetorical, I realise), fraud and loss of antiques?

[Kurtdog]

The article on the Legend website, in my opinion, severely overstates the impact of such doctored coins on the hobby.

 

Is it a problem?

Yes, of course it is.

 

Is it a "perfect example of what is seriously hurting EVERYONE in the hobby"?

Hardly.

 

And do I believe "WHEN A BOZO MESSES UP A COIN LIKE ABOVE IT COSTS US ALL"?

Definitely not. It affects a narrow portion of the market, and not remotely "ALL" of us.

 

Unfortunately, while I greatly dislike such attempts to bolster the apparent grade of a gold coin by applying putty, it's difficult to buy into an argument that is so filled with hyperbole, severe exaggeration, and misleading statements. This sort of attitude actually makes it more difficult to do battle with those who damage the hobby.

I don't know how I missed this reply, but I did. Anyway, I'll just add, it's not coin collectors who have to worry about these "problems," but the TPGs and CAC and those coin investors who trade off their slabs and stickers. Let them do something about these "problems." They're the ones who get hurt by same because they don't know what they're doing. Coin collectors don't get hurt because we know how to judge and appreciate coins with our own eyes without an assist from some third or fourth party's eyes.

 

That's how I see it, anyway, in a nutshell, and, nope, I shan't apologize for it--so there!

[Oldtrader3]

James, it is a scam, it cheats people out of money, it ought to stop! I do not give fiddler's d*mn about the fact that it is not every other coin. It is a lot of advanced collector coins over the years and even I have been had by this crooked faker dishonesty of which all dealers look the other way on. You know it is a problem and put your head in the sand like nearly every d*mned gutless dealer in this rifely dishonest hobby!

 

Man I am sick of the self-perpetuated dishonesty of coin dealers! I am not talking about you James but the big mouthed dealers ATS, with food on their shirts and their poison pens who fly over to this site on their brooms everytime somebody delivers a well deserved t*rd in their punchbowl!